xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
Thanks Kacie.
Gimme some time, I am still jetlagged and have no brain for numbers.
Gimme some time, I am still jetlagged and have no brain for numbers.
[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread
- Thread starter xarvh
- Start date
cyl
Creepy smile
Yes and yesWlfSamurai said:
We sneak in the warehouse because we don't want to sound the alarm, we get rid of the guards quickly and discretely, and we free the captives.
This is not the time to go full totemic. We don't want the whole city on our back when we are freeing the captives.
You'll unleash your Zenith bravado when you team up with Siham to distract the undead even further.
Right now we need to be as quick and efficient.
6 guards, that's 3 each, they'll fall like flies if we use surprise attacks (perhaps a jump from the crates) and you can take more on if you have an extra attack charm, I don't mind if you leave Malek only one or two.
cyl
Creepy smile
You seem to forget one thing: special characters in a unit bring the unit stuff that can turn the tables.
- 1 extra attack per SC, even though weaker because Magnitude is no longer a factor, that only is probably enough to win a battle
- another target to protect the unit surrounding the SC, if you have swarms of peasants and one guy with a shiny golden armor on flailing your troops, you try to take him down first, and if you aim for him, then you can't attack the unit
- the ability to improve the unit's fighting skill (lending his close combat or ranged traits)... that part never made sense, because it voids the importance of training, but you can easily
- the ability to target leaders / special characters
Having a unit with an exalted commander and an exalted hero / sorcerer means that even if the exalts do not team up and form a single unit, they can lead troops and fight side by side.
I think putting the focus on the troops and not the commander makes perfect sense, and increase the values of well trained and armed troops.
A solo exalt can still use his charms to defend himself vs crushing numbers (lolno, I raise my DV, ya missed !), and if he has troops with him he can lead them to victory, and if he has another exalted partner in his unit, things will go even faster.
In our current composition we have at least 4 commanders (Flicker - Argis - Mirror - Malek) and 3 potential special characters (Fangs - Rhapsody - Siham).
If Malek leads a unit and Rhapsody fights with him (because... close combat), they'll get the best of both worlds, Malek's traits + Rhapsody's extra punches.
You are two, one of you is the leader, the other the SC. Depending on if you fight side by side or if Mirror can't actually attack, per the rules you get either 1 unit attack only, or 1 unit attack and 1 SC attack.
Also, don't forget that you can target leaders to scatter the mob instead of just hitting the troops to exterminate them to the last.
A leaderless unit has to check for rout and can't move, that prevents them from chasing you, and possibly makes it lose dots of Magnitude.
So the hit the leader & run tactic can most likely work with you two when you are hopelessly outnumbered.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
Your examples seem to uphold my general point, Cyl.
I'm not saying we shouldn't buddy up on the field, I'm saying that one person is the official troop Leader in War ticks, and the others are actively running around protecting/attacking in normal ticks. They can't be everywhere at once, so they have to choose whether to help the Leader protect the troops, or if they need to run off and try and kill the enemy commander. And if one PC/Exalted wants to be the Special Unit - for example, the Warstrider associated with that Unit - that's fine.
The question is mechanical - does the Special Unit add to the Leadership/troop attack, or do they have their own rolls and actions?
Right now, if Mirror had a unit of ghosts and Fangs as the special unit, I'm not sure what the troops would do to benefit her attack. It's better to "wield" the Deathbadger, who has superior stats in every way. Unless I misunderstand, I can't add both units and the Special Unit -- and even if I can, it means I the leader am having all the fun doing stunting, and the Special Unit player isn't getting to do their own thing.
I might have that wrong, but certainly in this latest combat with Mirror & Fangs, it seemed to be either/or; either we fought separately and had 2 different sets of rolls and stunts, OR one person did all the rolls and stunting. That's less fun, but currently mechanically advantageous.
What I'm thinking about is having troops and their Leader be on War ticks, and people not directly with the Unit get to have scenelets where they get to affect the flow of the battle. That may be staying next to the Commander and protecting them from enemy Exalts, or running off to deal with the siege weapons at the gates, to make sure the gates don't give way.
We're all on the field together, we're all helping each other out, but we're doing different things; one is Leading Troops on war ticks, and the others casting and defending which is really handled better by dropping out of War ticks and going into regular combat. That tends to be how movies handle this sort of scene.
I'm not saying we shouldn't buddy up on the field, I'm saying that one person is the official troop Leader in War ticks, and the others are actively running around protecting/attacking in normal ticks. They can't be everywhere at once, so they have to choose whether to help the Leader protect the troops, or if they need to run off and try and kill the enemy commander. And if one PC/Exalted wants to be the Special Unit - for example, the Warstrider associated with that Unit - that's fine.
The question is mechanical - does the Special Unit add to the Leadership/troop attack, or do they have their own rolls and actions?
Right now, if Mirror had a unit of ghosts and Fangs as the special unit, I'm not sure what the troops would do to benefit her attack. It's better to "wield" the Deathbadger, who has superior stats in every way. Unless I misunderstand, I can't add both units and the Special Unit -- and even if I can, it means I the leader am having all the fun doing stunting, and the Special Unit player isn't getting to do their own thing.
I might have that wrong, but certainly in this latest combat with Mirror & Fangs, it seemed to be either/or; either we fought separately and had 2 different sets of rolls and stunts, OR one person did all the rolls and stunting. That's less fun, but currently mechanically advantageous.
What I'm thinking about is having troops and their Leader be on War ticks, and people not directly with the Unit get to have scenelets where they get to affect the flow of the battle. That may be staying next to the Commander and protecting them from enemy Exalts, or running off to deal with the siege weapons at the gates, to make sure the gates don't give way.
We're all on the field together, we're all helping each other out, but we're doing different things; one is Leading Troops on war ticks, and the others casting and defending which is really handled better by dropping out of War ticks and going into regular combat. That tends to be how movies handle this sort of scene.
Think of Return of the King; the Rohan are pouring over the hill to attack the troops of Mordor from behind: King Theoden makes his War roll, using the Riders as his troops. They're well-disciplined, highly motivated & trained, and love their King. The movie shows the War tick, as the Riders smash into the rear lines of Mordor; the GM describes the outcome of the War roll.
Next, the Special Units and Exalted vie for who gets the advantage in preparation for the next War roll -- Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli recognize the Mordor Oliphants are a huge threat to the Horseriders, and determine they're going to do something about that. Separate from the War rolls, they bust out into personal combat time as they try to take on an Oliphant by themselves. That scenelet is resolved, and an Oliphant or two go down.
This in turn either reduces the power of the Mordor troops, or gives Theoden substantial bonuses in his next War roll as the Riders rally, as the three Exalted have hampered the Special Unit attached to Mordor. The movie shows Theoden roaring out orders and exhorting the Riders, and we see more of the Riders vs. Mordor troops.
This is just an idea, not yet fleshed out - but I would like to see a mechanical system that supports the grand sweeping War ticks, and then breaks out into smaller scenes for the other Exalted to do stuff to affect the battle, and then we see how that helps in the next set of War ticks. Everyone gets to be awesome, both Leader and everyone else, and the troops do matter.
This is how I've seen it handled in other games. In some of them, even the Leader gets to act in the scenelets - they lead their army (make War roll), the armies clash, the baddies reveal their super-weapon, and the Leader attacks the super-weapon as the troops fight around them.
I'll read over the Exalted Mass Combat (ugh) and think about it some more, see if I can put some crunch to this idea.
Next, the Special Units and Exalted vie for who gets the advantage in preparation for the next War roll -- Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli recognize the Mordor Oliphants are a huge threat to the Horseriders, and determine they're going to do something about that. Separate from the War rolls, they bust out into personal combat time as they try to take on an Oliphant by themselves. That scenelet is resolved, and an Oliphant or two go down.
This in turn either reduces the power of the Mordor troops, or gives Theoden substantial bonuses in his next War roll as the Riders rally, as the three Exalted have hampered the Special Unit attached to Mordor. The movie shows Theoden roaring out orders and exhorting the Riders, and we see more of the Riders vs. Mordor troops.
This is just an idea, not yet fleshed out - but I would like to see a mechanical system that supports the grand sweeping War ticks, and then breaks out into smaller scenes for the other Exalted to do stuff to affect the battle, and then we see how that helps in the next set of War ticks. Everyone gets to be awesome, both Leader and everyone else, and the troops do matter.
This is how I've seen it handled in other games. In some of them, even the Leader gets to act in the scenelets - they lead their army (make War roll), the armies clash, the baddies reveal their super-weapon, and the Leader attacks the super-weapon as the troops fight around them.
I'll read over the Exalted Mass Combat (ugh) and think about it some more, see if I can put some crunch to this idea.
cyl
Creepy smile
The canon MC answers: both
Special Characters can lend the unit their Close Combat rating (as per the house rules I guess it would mean boosting the accuracy of the unit), and they can make a sort of "extra solo attack " vs the target... which means that when you have a warstrider, you get to kick ass if you are in a unit and are somehow sheltered by your pals around you.
They can also be singled out and targeted.
You mistake UNIT and SPECIAL CHARACTER (SC) I think.
Any given unit can have as many SCs as its Magnitude (the leader doesn't count as a SC since he leads the unit and attacks through it).
If you form a unit of magnitude 1, Fangs becomes this unit's SC.
Fangs can boost the unit accuracy, and make an extra attack on the enemy unit (and that hurts !).
Your situation is really weird because you can form a unit with the two of you, but it is hard to put a number on the Average Soldier values because of Fangs' warstrider stats... but by the rules even with just the two of you, you still form a magnitude 1 unit, and both the unit and Fangs can attack (she can as the SC with her extra sort of solo attack vs enemy units).
It's weird, and possibly a source of abuses, but that's the way Magnitude is handled, as long as you are 2, you are a unit with magnitude 1.
Yeah but rpgs, especially pbp types, are far more complex to handle than watching a movie, and breaking the flow is never a good idea IMHO.
However, the MC is built so that you don't need to initiate a duel and get out of the war ticks system to single out the target of your choice (SC or unit leader) and bring the hurt.
Duels are an option, not an obligation.
There are 2 ways of hurting a specific target while in Mass Combat war ticks:
- from a distance: you just need to overcome the leader's DV
- in close combat: you must have engaged the unit on the last tick before you target its leader
If you succeed, the damage will be dealt straight to the leader or SC and not the unit.
Hence my previous points: target the leaders, not the units !
The consequences of slaying the leaders are rather beneficial because it means the unit has to take the time to recompose or slowly starts decomposing, giving you room to maneuver and get away instead of staying within her reach.
I should note that hitting a leaderless unit is a bad idea, since it can still defend and strike back.
It is not said if SCs can or can't single out specific targets, but I guess it would make sense that they could if they meet the prerequisites (ranged attack or being already engaged).
So non solo unit + non leaders exalts fighting as SCs in a unit have an impact on the battle and are not just tools of war in the hands of the unit leader, they can participate actively and be solicited.
They can attack, they can be attacked, and they can even become leaders of their own unit if a split is decided or if the leader is taken down.
I don't really see the need for a change here, not that I am opposed to it, but it looks like it works just fine with pbp format to me.
Feantari
Water Sprite
As an aside and as the resident DB, I'm a fan of keeping xarvh's system or core system (in that order). I can't really keep up with what everyone is arguing for atm, but that's my 2c. Realistically I will have time to read and catch up tomorrow night.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
Okay - I took lunch break to read the core Mass Combat rules, and have come to 2 understandings.
1) Xarvh's house version looks pretty similar all told. Nobody has Might of artifacts factored it, so everyone is on the same level playing field.
2) Goddamn the writers for not figuring out or even discussing Warstriders in Mass Combat in the books. It's implied all over the place, but I can't see that they ever say "Treat this as a Mag 3 Unit", or "treat a Colossus sized war strider as having X & Y stats in Mass Combat". (Not that I saw in WotLA, anyways.) AI, subsystems, mundane weapons, artifact weapons - but nothing on Mass Combat! Despite stating things like, "typically special unit with Fang of troops and commander" and other stuff!
They do seem to say they are used as Special Units, but then that basically means "they act as a solo unit but get the benefit of being surrounded by troops" (and thus aren't targeted by attacks, the troops are).
So yes, the main issue seems to be they never figured out how to incorporate War Striders mechanically into Mass Combat.
Given the size of the war strider, and its huge soak & strength, it seems like it ought to be treated as a unit with Magnitude corresponding to how much soak it has -- that was one attempt at a fix I saw somewhere on the internet. I haven't crunched the numbers, but given that the largest are supposed to be siege engines capable of tearing down city fortification walls - seems like the smaller ones should be treated like a small army. Maybe Magnitude 2?
Crazy Ivan, you want to weigh in on this?
-----
Overall, I've realized Xarvh is right about how functionally Exalted tries to abstract troops away as "armor" and "weapons". It has charts for eyeballing whether a unit is better than another unit, in 5 or so stats. All attack stats are capped by War, and your roll is to bash away the other guy's armor/weapons (the troops). You even get to use your personal charms to help the army - Melee excellencies, as well as Heavenly Guardian (!) and other perfects.
Personally, I think this is super clumsy, which is why I like letting the ST figure out the unit & Mass Combat stuff, and having that be a backdrop for what my actions are.
I propose dropping Mass Combat as a set of rules, and instead PCs take specific actions in support of the armies engaged in Mass Combat. The superior troops are actually more important this way, because unless I'm actively bolstering them with War charms and taking actions to do leadership rolls, all that matters is their drill, moral, equipment, and numbers. That means it really matters whether or not our troops are one more dot of training than the enemy. If we "wear" them, then my Melee Exc and War pool quickly swamps the dice importance of 1 or 2 more dots of training. (It's far easier for me to use XP to up the pool for spending motes than it is for us to arm the troops with universally better weapons, in the current system.)
And that way I get to stunt my way over to the enemy commander, get in a royal fight, and do all the fun stuff.
But it's up to Xarvh. And if he wants to stick with Mass Combat as-is, I'd say house-ruling how Warstriders function is the main thing to fix, and the rest is probably fine.
1) Xarvh's house version looks pretty similar all told. Nobody has Might of artifacts factored it, so everyone is on the same level playing field.
2) Goddamn the writers for not figuring out or even discussing Warstriders in Mass Combat in the books. It's implied all over the place, but I can't see that they ever say "Treat this as a Mag 3 Unit", or "treat a Colossus sized war strider as having X & Y stats in Mass Combat". (Not that I saw in WotLA, anyways.) AI, subsystems, mundane weapons, artifact weapons - but nothing on Mass Combat! Despite stating things like, "typically special unit with Fang of troops and commander" and other stuff!
They do seem to say they are used as Special Units, but then that basically means "they act as a solo unit but get the benefit of being surrounded by troops" (and thus aren't targeted by attacks, the troops are).
So yes, the main issue seems to be they never figured out how to incorporate War Striders mechanically into Mass Combat.
Given the size of the war strider, and its huge soak & strength, it seems like it ought to be treated as a unit with Magnitude corresponding to how much soak it has -- that was one attempt at a fix I saw somewhere on the internet. I haven't crunched the numbers, but given that the largest are supposed to be siege engines capable of tearing down city fortification walls - seems like the smaller ones should be treated like a small army. Maybe Magnitude 2?
Crazy Ivan, you want to weigh in on this?
-----
Overall, I've realized Xarvh is right about how functionally Exalted tries to abstract troops away as "armor" and "weapons". It has charts for eyeballing whether a unit is better than another unit, in 5 or so stats. All attack stats are capped by War, and your roll is to bash away the other guy's armor/weapons (the troops). You even get to use your personal charms to help the army - Melee excellencies, as well as Heavenly Guardian (!) and other perfects.
Personally, I think this is super clumsy, which is why I like letting the ST figure out the unit & Mass Combat stuff, and having that be a backdrop for what my actions are.
I propose dropping Mass Combat as a set of rules, and instead PCs take specific actions in support of the armies engaged in Mass Combat. The superior troops are actually more important this way, because unless I'm actively bolstering them with War charms and taking actions to do leadership rolls, all that matters is their drill, moral, equipment, and numbers. That means it really matters whether or not our troops are one more dot of training than the enemy. If we "wear" them, then my Melee Exc and War pool quickly swamps the dice importance of 1 or 2 more dots of training. (It's far easier for me to use XP to up the pool for spending motes than it is for us to arm the troops with universally better weapons, in the current system.)
And that way I get to stunt my way over to the enemy commander, get in a royal fight, and do all the fun stuff.
But it's up to Xarvh. And if he wants to stick with Mass Combat as-is, I'd say house-ruling how Warstriders function is the main thing to fix, and the rest is probably fine.
WlfSamurai
Maelstrom Engineer
Seconded (not a word?). I'm a MASSIVE Mecha/Mech fan, but xarvh's system is simple and to the point. No need to change it. And obviously it's the flavor he wants the game to be in.Feantari said:
I realize, as I'm typing, that the discussion hasn't really been about whether we should change them as much as CI pointing that their different. But, incase I miss a vote or something, put me down on the "keep xarvh's" part of the ballot.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
Yeah, sorry, got a bit rantish there. It's frustrating to have part of the setting just...missing from a key part of the mechanics.
I'm fine with keeping it mostly as is, but for CrazyIvan's sake, it would be nice to figure out the warstrider stuff.
I'm fine with keeping it mostly as is, but for CrazyIvan's sake, it would be nice to figure out the warstrider stuff.
Feantari
Water Sprite
@Kacie I agree that magnitude is probably the way to handle the warstrider issue. Some spells create things that are given magnitude for mass combat so it isn't unprecedented (hound of air thingy for example).
I would disagree with getting rid of mass combat rules though. If you don't want your character to be a general then don't. Be a solo unit or a special character depending on the situation. Guaranteed your actions will still have an effect. Xarvh is pretty good at dealing with our crazy off the wall approach to things.
I recall a certain crazy solar teleporting into the middle of an army to try to gank the leader...
If you just want to be a lead from the front sort of chick then check out the DB charm leading from below. Make a custom solaroid level charm that does something similar and go to town?
I would disagree with getting rid of mass combat rules though. If you don't want your character to be a general then don't. Be a solo unit or a special character depending on the situation. Guaranteed your actions will still have an effect. Xarvh is pretty good at dealing with our crazy off the wall approach to things.
I recall a certain crazy solar teleporting into the middle of an army to try to gank the leader...
If you just want to be a lead from the front sort of chick then check out the DB charm leading from below. Make a custom solaroid level charm that does something similar and go to town?
WlfSamurai
Maelstrom Engineer
Besides, doesn't this game have an air of nation-building? What's nation-building without commanding armies into action.
If we can keep the Warstriders relevant, I'm in, I love Mecha. But if not, no worries, I think it best we spend as little extra effort as we can.
If we can keep the Warstriders relevant, I'm in, I love Mecha. But if not, no worries, I think it best we spend as little extra effort as we can.
Kacie
One Thousand Club
I understand wanting to keep Mass Combat. It gets funky since "solo units" are completely unlike acting on your own. Teleporting into an army to gank the leader is great, if you get to attack one on one against the leader and use your personal stats, and not the "solo unit" stats. If we can do that, great.
And there's an abyssal charm where if you're solo vs. Mag 3+ you (theoretically) rip them apart. I'll have to see if the charm actually does what it implies it does.
I just feel bad for CrazyIvan, since this is the second time Fangs was supposed to be really good at mass combat, and then the mechanics don't support that.
And there's an abyssal charm where if you're solo vs. Mag 3+ you (theoretically) rip them apart. I'll have to see if the charm actually does what it implies it does.
I just feel bad for CrazyIvan, since this is the second time Fangs was supposed to be really good at mass combat, and then the mechanics don't support that.
Feantari
Water Sprite
We can tweak warstriders to that end. Not going to have time to number crunch until tomorrow night.
Arynne
Salmon of Doubt
Hear, hear (says the Lunar general)WlfSamurai said:
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
I will be the Saruman to your Sauron. I will build you an army worth of Mordor Cross.
cyl
Creepy smile
Seconded (says the Eclipse warlord - Tiger Warrior Trainer)Arynne said:
Either I don't understand your point, or you didn't understand mine.Kacie said:
We already can gank the leader of an enemy unit if you are a Unit Leader (using the unit and your war pool) or a Special Character in a unit (using your own combat stats), no need to teleport through the battlefield.
You just need a ranged weapon, or being engaged to the unit he's leading and overcome his DV.
Solo units are not problematic, they are generally a very bad idea unless you really know what you are doing !
In this setting, the ants overcome the giant every time (Primordials -> Celestials -> Dragon Blooded) so unless you have something to burn the ants away, they will keep coming at you and eat you alive.
Now, a warstrider is like a turtle, it's huge, it's tough as hell and tramples the tiny ants, but it's also clumsy, slow and gets tired very fast. It will get definitely eaten by ants if it stands alone.
I doubt Fangs was supposed to be really good at MC or normal combat with a warstrider considering her stats, and I really don't mean to be condescending when I say that.
Warstriders are extremely demanding to be truly efficient (heavy mobility and fatigue values) and they can't really operate for long.
Fangs is not 100% cut for it yet and she can't either use it in MC properly unless she remains a Special Character in a unit, which is cool, because then she can do a lot of damage !
I stand by my suggestion: hit the leader + disengage the unit & repeat until you are able to retreat safely.
cyl
Creepy smile
@WlfSamurai : your move 
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
What Fangs and Mirror are doing is really an edge case, and I am considering Fangs as Magnitude 0.
Warstriders should be Special Units, unless you have a unit completely made by warstriders (as it is the case with Fangs).
You seem to want Warstriders to be effective as Solo Units, I'm not 100% sure I want that.
The problem that I see is that warstrider in Exalted are just an armour and a large weapon, and I really really want your soldiers to be more worth than the leader's combat stats.
So, let's assume that we want WSs to be effective Solo Units.
Either we special case Warstriders, either we allow Solo Units' armour (and weapons?) to bear, but nerfed down while in MC.
Assigning Magnitude to a Warstrider is still no solution unless we also assume that it is its own Leader.
We have to figure out how a lone warstrider fits in the Leader/Troop/SpecialUnit/SoloUnit paradigm.
@Kacie: get Arise and Slaughter, have Fangs as a Special Unit, and kill the shit out of anything that looks you in a way you don't like.
Warstriders should be Special Units, unless you have a unit completely made by warstriders (as it is the case with Fangs).
You seem to want Warstriders to be effective as Solo Units, I'm not 100% sure I want that.
The problem that I see is that warstrider in Exalted are just an armour and a large weapon, and I really really want your soldiers to be more worth than the leader's combat stats.
So, let's assume that we want WSs to be effective Solo Units.
Either we special case Warstriders, either we allow Solo Units' armour (and weapons?) to bear, but nerfed down while in MC.
Assigning Magnitude to a Warstrider is still no solution unless we also assume that it is its own Leader.
We have to figure out how a lone warstrider fits in the Leader/Troop/SpecialUnit/SoloUnit paradigm.
@Kacie: get Arise and Slaughter, have Fangs as a Special Unit, and kill the shit out of anything that looks you in a way you don't like.
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
@WlfSamurai @cyl : wait for me to read what you wrote first! Things Will Happen .
Kacie
One Thousand Club
cyl
Creepy smile
Aw man, and Ito say tried to make Malek scary for once...xarvh said:
WlfSamurai
Maelstrom Engineer
xarvh
Malevolent Entertainer
JayTee
Eight Thousand Club
So the original plan kinda got buried under a shitton of Mass combat discussion, so I need a refresher. If I remember correctly, after Siham blows everything up we were to meet up and convince the peoples to Escape with Malek. After that, Siham and Rhapsody were to stay behind for a few extra days wreaking havoc to provide additional distraction for Malek to escape.
Is this an accurate summery?
Is this an accurate summery?
cyl
Creepy smile
Yup, Siham needs to pick Rhapsody up because he's her stealth escort.
The rest is basically me running away with the captives and you guys drawing the attention to you... and trust me, I envy you !
Lookshy would have been a great playground for my character.
We should definitely come back some time, and bring some friends with us !
The rest is basically me running away with the captives and you guys drawing the attention to you... and trust me, I envy you !
Lookshy would have been a great playground for my character.
We should definitely come back some time, and bring some friends with us !
