CotI and Sidereal MA - WTF?

[Persell]

Sidreal MA


Just to note, all three styles in the sidreal main book require a character to have completly mastered one other style to even start it.  This means that no matter how hard you try you cannot start off with one of the styles, furthermore they require high essence.


Even with the starting essence of 3, most Solars are going to have to spend a considerable period of game time getting ready to take their first lesson, let alone the full path to one of those styles.  Plus given the experience point requirement Its just not something that is going to be a starting out problem.  


Sure they can offer to teach you this cool ass MA that completly rocks, if you keep comming back repeatedly, for years.  I can personally see them offering that as an option, because of a far more simple reason.  The Solars may eventually surpass the Sidreals in the MA form, but it will take centuries, until then the Sidreals have nothing to fear.  An old addage was "The greatest fencer has nothing to fear from the second greatest, and everythign from the worst" meaning that the Sidreal's know that they can beat the solars that are spending all of their waking moments learning these MA forms, which teh sidreals are still going to be better than them at.


Furthermore Ketchup actually mentions the camps in the opening of the Sidreal book.  The Bronze faction fully knows about them, its just a they know that we know that they know that we know game.  They are an issue but he is too horribly arrogant to be concerned.

 

[SagaciousAscendingHero]

Re: Sidreal MA

Even with the starting essence of 3, most Solars...

Um, is this a house rule of yours, cuz last time I checked all the Exalted types only start with an Essence of 2.

 

[Flagg]

What he probably means is that with the standard 15 bonus points, you can only get your Essence up to 3 at chargen.


-S

 

[Haku1]

Actually... Cult Solars -start- at essence 3, their essence raising cost is 7 bonus points (the bonus point table is a typo as admited by the writer of that section of CoTI).


So yeah, Cult Solars can start at essence 5 with no problems if they REALLY want to.

 

[Persell]

Re: Sidreal MA

Just to note, all three styles in the sidreal main book require a character to have completly mastered one other style to even start it.

Actually, a whole MA is needed to master a Sidereal-level form. All charms prior to the form have no such requirement.

 

[Jakk Bey]

How many living Sidereals are there at one time? How many spanking new Solars?  How many spiffy new threats are there out in the Creation as of late, that are technically off the books where Fate is concerned?


Hell yes, they want a few friends who are capable to have the best of their training--because it's better to send Solars out to die, instead of very rare, very valuable, very fragile, and underappreciated Sidereals out into the mix. If the Solar dies...you lost some training time. At least you didn't lose someone important.  The Sidereals like the power that Solars wield, and their durability is darned sexy when you want to put a foot up the ass of evil, so giving them a leg up isn't that kooky.


Of course, being the Super Double-Secret training, it might mean that your Solar is also instructed that if you have to whip out the style, you'd best be killing every motherfucker in the room with you, anyone who might have seen you through a window, and probably destroy every Spirit that might have been awake and creeping around as well. In other words, you train only the most militant, gung ho, and fervent of your tools.


How many wuxia films have the "I'll teach you, but you must never practice this style where anyone can see you!" theme?  It's a time honored tradition. Master wants to pass on great secrets, because he likes the kid. The kid is going to be a great asset one day.


Then again, that might be because so many Chinese had to practice their kung fu in secret. The Grandmasters of today are sometimes all that is left of a style, because of persecution that forced them into hiding. Got thousands killed and imprisoned just for practicing.


Just because you know a style, doesn't mean that you use it all the time. It's the secret weapon. It's what you have your Solar thralls use to surprise the crap out of their most deadly of opponents.  If you're going to have the Solars in Super Double-Secret training, you'd better drill that into their heads pretty damn hard. And demand that before they even think about Sidereal arts, they'd best be completing an entire style, not just so that they can get the Form Charm, but because they are going to need powerful Charms that won't give them away.


Consider Sidereal MA trained Solars as packing a grenade in their jock straps. They won't need that puppy for most things, and whipping out the weapon of last resort isn't wise. But, if they do run into that special nasty someone, that absotively-posolutely needs to be dead, accept no substitute for their deadly ultimate techniques.


But your Sidereal Sifu's also need to drive home the idea that if they do use these techniques, that it had best be a dire emergency--the kind that would result in the devastation of a nation kind of dire, and not just a threat to their life and limbs.  


Because if they're found to be packing, then perhaps the last thing a Solar may see while out on their next mission is a blur of crimson, right before the blade of a slender daiklaive bursts through their chest.  


Reiterate, over and over again, This is not your Daddy's Kung Fu.


And if your players insist on using the new toy, it will probably be a member of the Gold Faction who kills them, long before the Bronze get word. Be a damn shame if the PC had to be killed by their own Sifu to protect their secret...

 

[Persell]

Re: Sidreal MA

Just to note, all three styles in the sidreal main book require a character to have completly mastered one other style to even start it.

Actually, a whole MA is needed to master a Sidereal-level form. All charms prior to the form have no such requirement.

Good point, though I would state that most of the Sidreal MA charms have a high essence cost that make them less useful without the struta strips and the like.  They don't get truly nasty, IE there are comparable charms in most cases,  until you start hitting forms.

 

[Spook]

And if your players insist on using the new toy, it will probably be a member of the Gold Faction who kills them, long before the Bronze get word. Be a damn shame if the PC had to be killed by their own Sifu to protect their secret...

It would also be the perfect time for the sudent to become the master, and lay a counterattack on the glass ninja Siddy.

 

[SagaciousAscendingHero]

Actually... Cult Solars -start- at essence 3, their essence raising cost is 7 bonus points (the bonus point table is a typo as admited by the writer of that section of CoTI).
So yeah, Cult Solars can start at essence 5 with no problems if they REALLY want to.

So, what? The CotI Solars have different starting stats? If so, what are they?

 

[Seiraryu]

They start with Essence 3, gain 30 Ability dots (I think) and have certain abilities that they gain the same benefits during character creation for as they get with Favored and Caste Abilities, and if these Abilities match favored or Caste, these bonuses stack.

 

[Obsidian Soul]

WTF?  Is WW crazy?  Okay, that's it, I'll buy CoTL for the backgrounf material, but no Solar character that plays in my game is going to start out as a member.  They will just have to get in the hard way, after I've kicked them around Creation.  I like showing new Solar the mad demigods that have survived, like the Goblin King, to show them what they'll become if they aren't careful.

 

[Persell]

yes it DOES sound like rather blatant power gamer apeasement.


GRANTED it DID Say the gold faction was perpetualy considering the possiblety but I think that it still wouldtn happen except with a canidate who had proven completely loyal to the gold faction, and was somewhat more... sane then lyta.


(IMAGINE Her wielding Sideral MA (Shudders)


(shes found in the dawn castebook)


another contradiction was in the exalted core book.


it said that a patrician cannot own more then 3 slaves.


in the Dragon blooded, and manacle and coin books however, they say unexalted cannot own slaves.


Interesting though thats the same number that according to the two latter books that a Dynast can free per decade.


(I wondered Idly if that even includes children)


problem with multiple people working together on a project who dont coordinate perfectly.


SOONER OR LATTER.


they contradict each other.

 

[Dulio Giovanni]

This discussion is quite enlightening, anyway just another something to sneak into this tirade of White Wolf inconsistencies, Has anyone noticed that Whitwolf seems to have gotten into the habit of printing out horribly illegal combos for a while now? The trend started with Mnailf in Blood and Salt when she was allowed to use Scene length charms within her combos then culminated in COTI when most of the members of Wyld Hunt freely combined secular charms with martial arts charms, the Seeking Throw and Tornado Offense technique mix being the most blatant.


We actually had to come up with a new ruling to accomodate this in the setting: Martial Arts Charms can be part of combos with secular charms if the in form weapon of the style can also be governed by a secular ability such as Melee, Throw or Archery and if the charm combinations make sense. The exception to the rule is Brawl as the said ability is an unarmed style of fighting that is fully distinct from Martial Arts.

 

[Persell]

That must be a mistake on page 37. First, it leaves out Snake style and then later on page 80 it says


THE ARTS OF THE TEMPLE


Martial-art instruction at the Sequestered Tabernacle


focuses primarily on the four Celestial arts


best suited to Solars: Snake Style, Tiger Style, Ebon


Shadow Style and Praying Mantis Style...Finally, the Gold Faction


wishes to retain some secrets from its Solar charges,


and so, thus far, it has withheld the secrets of


Sidereal-level styles from the Solars.


That makes alot more sense than page 37 so I'd choose disregard what it says.

 

[Flagg]

That makes alot more sense than page 37 so I'd choose disregard what it says.

Agreed.


-S

 

[Silence In Daylight]

That must be a mistake on page 37. First, it leaves out Snake style and then later on page 80 it says
THE ARTS OF THE TEMPLE


Martial-art instruction at the Sequestered Tabernacle


focuses primarily on the four Celestial arts


best suited to Solars: Snake Style, Tiger Style, Ebon


Shadow Style and Praying Mantis Style...Finally, the Gold Faction


wishes to retain some secrets from its Solar charges,


and so, thus far, it has withheld the secrets of


Sidereal-level styles from the Solars.


That makes alot more sense than page 37 so I'd choose disregard what it says.

 It's reasonably apparent that the editors for the sections didn't dot their i's and cross their t's. However, only one fix--adding in Snake Style to the list on page 37--is absolutely necessary.


 The description on martial arts instruction on page 80 applies only to the Sequestered Tabernacle. If one reads 'The Training Camps' on pages 74-75, one will see that the two instructors mentioned on page 37 that are willing to teach Siddie MA to Solars (Kai and Lupo) are not the backers of the Sequestered Tabernacle (Venerable Silk is).  There is nothing to suggest that the MA restriction applies to Kether Rock or the third camp.

 

[Persell]

very good point. Though, I doubt it's Kether Rock. The Rock doesn't seem to stress martial arts at all. It  could very well at the thrid camp. Of course that's our camp to do as we please with so we can negate page 37 if we wish.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

very good point. Though, I doubt it's Kether Rock. The Rock doesn't seem to stress martial arts at all. It  could very well at the thrid camp. Of course that's our camp to do as we please with so we can negate page 37 if we wish.

 Ironic, how the Siddie who's supposedly the only one teaching PAoC to Solars (Lupo) turns out to be the one backing Kether Rock. Gotta love the  inter-section continuity...and don't get me started on camp locations.

 

[The Mad hatter]

One reson the Bronze Frachion has troubles with Cult and other Gold sided issues is they can hide the fate of their little prdgeys and make sure no one will be looking at patuclar times, also, from what the siddie book stated, the Gold Frachion has a majorty of the Chosen of Endings, while all chosen may be equal more or less, the Chosen of Endings are the premier assassins and Judges and they keep sticking their nose into The Bonzes Business, also with the unconjured Sun (sorta) taking intrist in his chosen again, the bronze find themselfs being closed in on with red tape, while they can counter it, they also have their hands full with the houses, the deathlords (as its almost entirly bronze frachion that sits on that councile), not to menchion dozens of other little things, to hold creation they had to get their fingers in alot of pies, its only now they are relising that many of those pies have bear traps in them that are weighing them down and slowing them, as for achually teaching sidreal martial arts, it would go only to the ones who could keep the secrect and understood to either not use them untill it was time or to not leave anything alive who might have seen you, its not like the bronze fraction hasnt been trying to teach dragon bloods Sidreal Martial arts, the earth aspect book menchions their newst attempt, and you can bet the golds know the bronze want to teach the dragon bloods it, just as the bronze knows the golds wouldnt mind having a few solars knowing it, its just not knowing weither they achully would and with who


EDIT- i forgot to add the incrediable amount of backing the cult and golds recive, they have 2 leaders of heavnly berus at their back, one of witch can assemble easly one of the most terrfying legions in the world, and the head of the divisions of secrects backing them as well (though i wouldnt be suprised if the bronze had some help from them too) seeing how a majorty of bronze are in the divisions of secrects from what i could tell, this little addition gives the golds a decent edge, they may be smaller, and they may not be doing the best job out there of keeping secrects, but the bronze want to preserve creation, and looking at what the golds have to call on, its pretty clear achully making a move on them right now would destroy creation, also with the abyssals, Lytek has sorta backwards made the request for them

 

[Lotus1]

man i am dumb then, i always assumed that only Siddies could learn Siddie MA, kinda like only Solars could learn Solar Circle Spells.

 

[Persell]

My views on this topic:


Powergamer appeal: I don't see it. We all know that if a solar would invest half the time he needed to master a siderial martial art into charms of his own (redeveloping lost ones etc.) he would be considerably more powerful than someone mastering a siderial martial art, but this has already been said before. Thing is, the gold faction does know that which brings me to point two:


Why would a gold faction siderial teach a solar prismatic arrangement of creation style? The answer is spiritual perfection. Siderials praction martial arts not primarily to improve their fighting power but to enhance their understanding of creation, essence and destiny. Given the reasons for the solar purge it seems only logical that the gold faction tries to "spiritually improve" its new students and they do that the same way their own teachers helped them improve, by teaching them martial arts, thinking that those will keep them in line and mentally sane.

 

[Persell]

This is a very good point.


However, Sidereals aren't able to weigh up the power level of Solars in the same way that we can, with the mechanics and character creation rules in front of us. They are likely to think along the lines of "this is the most powerful technique I can teach the Solars... do I want to?" rather than evaluate its power against Solar charms of similar level.


You've still swayed me towards a more permissive approach to teaching Solars Sidereal MA.

 

[Lotus1]

Just outta curiousity could a Sidereal learn Dreaming Pearl Court...Style? Cus i know it says it was specifically developed and intended for use by solars, but i mean if a solar could learn a Sidereal Tailored martial art then it stands to reason that a sidereal could use solar martial arts no?

 

[memesis]

Just outta curiousity could a Sidereal learn Dreaming Pearl Court...Style? Cus i know it says it was specifically developed and intended for use by solars, but i mean if a solar could learn a Sidereal Tailored martial art then it stands to reason that a sidereal could use solar martial arts no?

No, it doesn't stand to reason.


Solars, Lunars, and Sidereals all have their unique areas of expertise.  Yes, Sidereals get high-end Martial Arts, but that doesn't mean they can necessarily learn or excel at EVERY style.

 

[Hanat-Osul]

Yes, Dracogryf seems to have stated in a much more concise way than what I think I may have ever been able to get out of brain.
Something about the Sid MA, Sids are notoriously arrogant, a Sid could decide that his Solar "pet" can learn the techniques, and Sid wouldn't worry because the Solar could never possibly subvert him.

Also, it's a matter of which particular techniques the Siddy in question chooses to teach.  For instance: a Solar in my game's been taught Orichalcum Sheathing Stance and Five Jade Fury, but he'll never be taught Sequential Charm Disruption or anything as important.  He'll never be taught anything but exactly what Lupo wants to teach him.  And that's the end of it.  It's not like the character has a Charm list and can go, "Yo, hook it up with Charcoal March of Spiders, B, for real."