CotI and Sidereal MA - WTF?

[Joseph]

it also shows that the Sidereal ability to see in the future is very very cloudy

I don't think it's safe to say that having somewhat cloudy vision when focusing on the fate of Creation entire millenia into the future means you'd have particularly cloudy vision seeing where a single fellow is going to be tomorrow.


I can't make out the facial features of a man I see from a substantial distance, that doesn't mean I wouldn't be able to make them out standing right next to him.

 

[Joseph]

The US has high powered satellites' date=' do we know where Osama is? Only roughly.[/quote']
High powered satellites only see the surface of the planet.  I don't think it's a good analogy.

 

[Joseph]

Ah' date=' but there are Sidereals and Gods for the Gold faction that can block, conceal, and stall the Bronze faction.[/quote']
I don't remember there being a Sidereal ability to conceal what is fated to be from one another, could you point it out?

 

[Persell]

Ah' date=' but there are Sidereals and Gods for the Gold faction that can block, conceal, and stall the Bronze faction.[/quote']
I don't remember there being a Sidereal ability to conceal what is fated to be from one another, could you point it out?

I didn't quite mean a mechanical obsfucation as much as I meant a "no you can't use the loom right now, I'm slated to use it for the next 6 years" filibuster kind of thing. My overall point is that while the Bronze faction is the stronger of the two, that the gold faction is strong enough to hamstring them.


If there is a mechanical aspect to it, then I think it would be a constant one upping of each other that would ultimately end up with one side having so many Sidereals working on it that their great curse would interefere.


I do admit that WW should have handled this better in a much more clear cut way.

 

[Andrew02]

I'm wondering if the inconsistencies are part of that nonsense in the introduction about each chapter having a self-contained world-view.


The town where the Gold Faction first appeared to the Cult and appropriated it was razed to the ground by the Wyld Hunt. If the Bronze wanted to, there really isn't much that would stop them. None of the Cult's backers in Heaven have a lot of stroke, or anything.

 

[Dracogryff]

Ah' date=' but there are Sidereals and Gods for the Gold faction that can block, conceal, and stall the Bronze faction.[/quote']
I don't remember there being a Sidereal ability to conceal what is fated to be from one another, could you point it out?

This may be just me, but wouldn't the ability to see itno the future go both ways? It's all kinda like a really really complicated game of chess where you never actually move the pieces, just predict where they're gonna be and counter it without getting anywhere.


Bronze Faction: Look. That's what they're about to do, move the Wyld Hunt in here.


Elswhere, Gold Faction reading the same thing: Hm. BF is sending the Wyld Hunt out to counter that attack we had planned. Better change it to this.


Back to BF: Dammit. Okay, better send the Hunt here....


And so forth. Ad nausaeum. Nothing ever happens, but both are sill seeing the future. Too bad it can change.


So, no they can't cloud what fate says, but both sides can see it and react to it, at least...which on the whole ends up mucking it up to a point where yeah, maybe it DOES get too mixed up to read.


That said, I admit, I don't quite see the logic behind the fact that GF Sids are apparently teaching Solars Sidereal MA...since their own book even states that not even GF Sids would think of doing such a thing....since they don't completely trust those Solars not to go Nucking Futz again...but hey. If you can both read the stars, though, it's not quite so easy to jump on each other, considering the other one will see it in advance and counter appropriately.

 

[Joseph]

This may be just me, but wouldn't the ability to see itno the future go both ways? It's all kinda like a really really complicated game of chess where you never actually move the pieces, just predict where they're gonna be and counter it without getting anywhere.
Bronze Faction: Look. That's what they're about to do, move the Wyld Hunt in here.


Elswhere, Gold Faction reading the same thing: Hm. BF is sending the Wyld Hunt out to counter that attack we had planned. Better change it to this.


Back to BF: Dammit. Okay, better send the Hunt here....


And so forth. Ad nausaeum.

If Sidereal ability to see the future as distinct as it seems to be in most flavor text about them, I think you've raised a good point actually.

 

[Persell]

Yes, Dracogryf seems to have stated in a much more concise way than what I think I may have ever been able to get out of brain.


Something about the Sid MA, Sids are notoriously arrogant, a Sid could decide that his Solar "pet" can learn the techniques, and Sid wouldn't worry because the Solar could never possibly subvert him.

 

[Andrew02]

I don't recall the exact mechanic, but CotI introduce something called Indoctrination for the non-Sidereal Exalts who are a part of the Cult. Basically, it forces Exalts who want to act outside Cult dictums to make a Conviction roll. I think it even causes them to gain Limit if they do something the Cult would not like.


Maybe there's something to that. I'm pretty sure it'd be in the Cult's rules somewhere that "Thou Shalt Not Kick Sidereal Ass."

 

[Persell]

I'm sure the Sidereals have all manner of both mundane and magical effects to keep Solars in line. Afterall, it a Cult.

 

[ashenphoenix]

How else are Solars going ot get someone to teach them Sidereal styles?  Infiltrating the Cult to get some martial arts training in perfectly approriate.

Infiltrating the what now?


I've got it - I've got a whole bunch of people that know I'm the second coming of Exalted's equivalent of Christ, but I'll act all sneaky and covert...not!


I think the problem that Still has is that there's not even a hint that it is secret or covert. From the impression I've got of what Still's saying, the Sidereal have "Solars - Learn Siderial MA here, now, free!" stamped all over their doors. There is no infiltration. There is no secrecy, aside from the vague concern that the Deathlords may find out that they're giving away free passes to the Solars and pout because they want one too.


In short - the Bronzes should be almost petitioning the occasional known-Gold factioneer to teach the Wyld hunt the Anathema's weaknesses to equal the stupidity on the Gold factions part.


Timeline post-CoI - In the beginning, the Solar Essences were imprisoned at the bottom of the ocean in the Jade Prision. This is universally agreed that it was a dumb idea, but no-one wants to admit it. Everyone is now a Gold-factioneer, and the Sidereal hubris has kicked in, making everyone stupid. Except for Kejak. Because he's too dumb to even consider that there may be Gold factioneers, so he hasn't noticed them in the past 10 years or so. So ner.

 

[Persell]

I'm sure the Sidereals have all manner of both mundane and magical effects to keep Solars in line.

Yes, and politics.


Stop trying to imagine how the GF could keep the Bronze Faction from finding out about their involvement in the Cult. The GF doesn't need to keep their involvement secret; they only need plausible deniability.

if a known member of the Cult whips out Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Style, it creates a direct, undeniable link between the Cult and the Gold Faction.

No, it doesn't. Even if a Solar does this, there's still the question of how believable the witnesses are. Whether they can be bribed. Blackmailed. Killed. Whether the Bronze Faction will act on the info even if they believe it. Whether annihilating the training camps would be their approach (I doubt it would be; the outcome is too unpredictable).


Is it even a secret? (I don't have CotI; if it's specifically stated that the BF doesn't know, then I agree that's stupid and needs to be ignored) In fact, E:S page 5 strongly indicates that Kejak already knows about the GF's training camps. Getting the political muscle together to do something about it is another question. After all, a direct attack is almost guaranteed to precipitate Sidereal vs Sidereal confrontation; they wish to avoid this.


The Bronze Faction has a lot on its plate. Compared to maintaining the fabric of reality itself, a dozen Solars waxing Wyld Hunts is remarkably small fry. Could be dealt with at any time.


As for teaching Solars Sidereal MA, yes it is powerful. It does not logically follow that Sidereals wouldn't do it. The positions stated in the books can only be taken as general trends; there are bound to be several Sidereals with their own take on things, and even someone reluctant to give such power to a Solar might meet one who they relate to well enough to question their doubts.


"Don't teach Solars our secret Arts!" isn't a law of nature, it's a factor to be weighed against others. In the Time of Tumult, someone's eventually going to say "y'know, this problem would be much easier to deal with if Dace knew Charcoal March of Spiders Form".


These issues aren't immovable objects, they're story hooks. They're not decided on electronic forums, but around gaming tables.

 

[Flagg]

Is it even a secret? (I don't have CotI; if it's specifically stated that the BF doesn't know, then I agree that's stupid and needs to be ignored)

Speaking from a point of admitted ignorance, you might want to defer to those who have actually read the material in question, rather than arguing with them.


-S

 

[Andrew02]

He doesn't sound too bright, either. You don't get plausible deniability when you're a faction that's outright working to reassert Solar supremacy and then all of a sudden you've got Solars running around with secret Martial Arts styles you can only learn from a Sidereal.

 

[Persell]

Speaking from a point of admitted ignorance, you might want to defer to those who have actually read the material in question, rather than arguing with them.

Didn't say I hadn't read it, just that I don't have it.


I like the combo with the flaming liquor.

He doesn't sound too bright, either. You don't get plausible deniability when you're a faction that's outright working to reassert Solar supremacy and then all of a sudden you've got Solars running around with secret Martial Arts styles you can only learn from a Sidereal.

You do if the Solars are trustworthy and discreet. Yes, those are the only circumstances in which I think it's likely the Sidereals would do the teachy.


But I've already been through this. Anyone who wants can read it above.

 

[Persell]

Couldn't it have been somehting learned form a past life?

I seem to remember the Sidereals book stating that Sidereal MA can ONLY be learned by Solars from a Sidereal Sifu. If my memory is correct, that would seem to discount that possibility.


-S

*ponders*


Well, if the Bronze Faction owns the Sidereal book, it does... So the deniability is mechanically screwed, yes. My question is about how politically screwed the deniability is... Could a persuasive Gold sell the story that it was something learned from a past life, or lost sutras in Rathess, or a god, or... Dude. Even better, a Deathlord. Since they're outside the web of fate, Sidereals don't really know squat about them, yes? Teaching an Abyssal Sidereal MA would then be quite deniable if I'm not mistaken. Which isn't to say that the supplements can be contradictory, since they can be. Of course, incorporating stuff from all the supplements written for a game isn't a unique problem. At any rate, the same sort of stuff that might redeem an Abyssal might possibly be blamed for the security leak, at least to the point that it was very difficult to prove otherwise... I think. I could be wrong, Sidereals aren't my strongest suit.

 

[Andrew02]

You do if the Solars are trustworthy and discreet.

Gold Faction teaching charms that induce Limit really makes that a big if.

 

[Persell]

Also, I think Dracogryff and Burning Palm raise valid considerations about the sheer mind-shattering details of keeping the bureaucracy of heaven running at all, even for Exalted (not to mention running in two different directions). Especially since we're talking about fewer than 100 consciousnesses. How many minds (even computer-enhanced minds, with lots of flunkies to do gruntwork math) does it take to run, say, the IRS?


I guess the biggest hurdle for me is Andrew02's big IF... What would motivate a GF to trust a Solar to not go crazy, especially if there's stuff that adds to his limit?


Well, Solar Presence Charms perhaps, yes, but...


Yes, Sorcery is also a possibility, however, there's still the indoctrination problems... A Solar wouldn't likely use such charms on his friend and mentor... Which would bring up the debate I remember from the old compendium about whether charms can be used subconsciously or not...


Of course, Abyssals don't have the same indoctrination problems Solars do. I guess that strangely, the Abyssals seem more likely candidates to learn Sidereal MA from the GF than the Solars, both because of the deniability and their fewer qualms about messing with the GF's decision making process.

 

[Persell]

What would motivate a GF to trust a Solar to not go crazy, especially if there's stuff that adds to his limit?

The Great Curse! Love! Blackmail! A deal with the Golden Lord! Ancient hats that possess their wearers and drive them to teach teach teach! Whatever your table can handle, really. This is a game of the imagination, after all.


Before I go berserk listing every mad idea I can think of, Sidereals don't understand the mechanics of a Limit Break. If a Solar has the ascetic Break, the Sidereal might not even worry about the occasional bout of contemplative mania, or even notice them.

 

[Morquea]

I guess the biggest hurdle for me is Andrew02's big IF... What would motivate a GF to trust a Solar to not go crazy, especially if there's stuff that adds to his limit?

Why should it be mechanical. The Optimistic view of the GF that they can avoid Solar to go crazy simply with their teaching isn't enough? GF was about correcting Solar's flaws. BF was about eliminate Solar's. So the GF thinks they can bent the Solar to act correctly.


So, who needs Limit breaking charm to subdue the Solar to thrust him. They are already positive about them. Let it be emotional. Not mechanical.

 

[Persell]

Hmm. Indeed. I fall on my sword.


Nobody's going to make the decision based on a character sheet or the text of a charm... And since the Golds have already gotten their heads around the whole Great Curse (or rather, the manifest effects of the Great Curse) thing...


I mean, it's not like Solars NEED Sidereal MA to kick ass and be more powerful than everybody else. The decision that they can handle having ultra-powerful Solars under their guidance is pretty old. Makes sense.

 

[Andrew02]

Gold Faction is really more about keeping the Solar's flaws in check. At least, the Cult oriented ones are. The main goal of using the Solars for the Gold Faction is to institute a New World Order sort of deal, with the way paved for Gold Faction Sidereal behind the throne king making by Solar power.

Also, I think Dracogryff and Burning Palm raise valid considerations about the sheer mind-shattering details of keeping the bureaucracy of heaven running at all, even for Exalted (not to mention running in two different directions). Especially since we're talking about fewer than 100 consciousnesses.

Sidereals don't do all of the work. I imagine that given the decrepid state of Heaven and the fact that Sidereals frequently arrange deals for unemployed gods to be made into Starmetal is sufficient allowance for the Sidereals not doing their much of their "jobs." The Sidereals probably only stick to actually being glorified clerks because it keeps them in good standing with various gods they want to remain in good standing with. It certainly doesn't seem like the Sidereals DO a lot of work in Heaven if several of them take the time to do the work the Gold Faction does in Creation with the Cult.


I doubt Chejop Kejak is filing any fucking reports or stamping envelopes to be processed by Jimmy Bronze Factioner in accounting, to be honest. Sidereals seem like the guys who come in later, take a long lunch, and leave early without ever seeming to get anything done . . . except LOOK busy when the boss comes around.

 

[SagaciousAscendingHero]

This may have already been pointed out, but there is too much "yes it is, no it isnt" kind of arguements in the first page and a half for me to weed through.


That being said, it seems to me that a Solar knowing a SidMA just means he has a GF tutor, not that some big secret society exists. The BF and the GF are totally aware of each other, so its wouldnt be a huge suprise to a BF Sid that a GF Sid would teach his little prodegy some of their secret MAs.


Now if a whole circle starts showing off fancy SidMA attacks, the BF might get suspicious..

 

[Obsidian Soul]

It's all up to the ST.  In my games, the CotI would never teach a Solar a Sidereal Martial Art, if nothing else than to give them an edge over the half-mad demigods of the US.

 

[memesis]

I dunno.  In my games, nothing is stopping Solars from inventing their own higher-Essence Charms anyway, which will generally edge slightly ahead of any Martial Arts you care to name.  The idea that Sidereal Martial Arts is an automatic advantage Sidereals have suggests that (a) martial arts themselves trump other abilities' Charms in terms of overall effectiveness, (b) the Gold Faction actively discourages new Charm creation, or © other.  Which is it in your game?