CotI and Sidereal MA - WTF?

[Flagg]

I've just gotten to page 36 in Cult of the Illuminated, which states that the Sidereals teach Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Style, a Sidereal Martial Art, to the Solars in the training camps, and potentially even Citrine Poxes of Contagion Style.


Doesn't this fly directly in the face of the Gold Faction trying to maintain plausable deniability in regards to the Cult?


If a Bronze Faction member sees a Solar bust out some Sidereal MA moves, who the fuck else is he going to assume taught it? It seems like that would blow their entire cover, no?


-S

 

[psychoph]

Couldn't it have been somehting learned form a past life?

 

[Flagg]

Couldn't it have been somehting learned form a past life?

I seem to remember the Sidereals book stating that Sidereal MA can ONLY be learned by Solars from a Sidereal Sifu. If my memory is correct, that would seem to discount that possibility.


-S

 

[Flagg]

On page 38, it states that Sidereals sometimes take Solars with them to Yu-Shan for the Carnival of Meeting.


So, not only are they teaching distinctive Charms to easily identifiable members of the Cult, but they're allowing themselves to be seen fraternizing with them in Heaven!


Are these guys for real? How do they expect Kejak & Co. NOT to put the pieces together? The Bronze Faction has never been protrayed as a bunch of stooges. I think they'd catch on instantly.


-S

 

[memesis]

My solution in Gods of Eden is fairly simple.  The Bronze and Gold Factions know about each other and know in broad terms what the other is up to.  They can't act directly against each other in Heaven, because of laws against violence, and they can't act without mandate in Creation.


In other words, if Sad Ivory goes out to kill a Solar (or even a Sidereal), she is doing so because SOMEBODY'S prognostication indicated that the victim would be a direct obstacle to the planned fate the Sidereals design every day.  The Sidereal factions now oppose each other bureaucratically at the higher levels - by designing fates they KNOW will be opposed by a given Solar, Lunar, rival, or whoever.


The Sidereals remain who they are - agents of fate, bureaucrats, designers of destiny.  Within the flex room that role permits, the factions can act as freely as they can.

 

[Flagg]

That sounds fine, but the book does say that the Gold Faction's plans are deliberately kept secret from the Bronze. They just seem to be doing a bass ackwards job of keeping that secret.


-S

 

[Flagg]

The book also mentions that the Sidereals are paranoid about the Deathlords finding out their secret, yet they take in Abyssals! How stupid can these people be?


-S

 

[psychoph]

I am sorry were you saying somehting still I can't get past lookign at your avatar to read your posts j/k.

 

[Joseph]

Couldn't it have been somehting learned form a past life?

I seem to remember the Sidereals book stating that Sidereal MA can ONLY be learned by Solars from a Sidereal Sifu. If my memory is correct, that would seem to discount that possibility.


-S

This is correct.  The ONLY way for ANY Non-Sidereal to EVER learn Sidereal Martial Arts is with a tutor, and even then they must be Solar or Abyssal Exalts.

 

[Joseph]

The book also mentions that the Sidereals are paranoid about the Deathlords finding out their secret, yet they take in Abyssals! How stupid can these people be?
-S

It's not the Sidereals that are stupid, it's the authors, which is why I don't buy Exalted books any longer.


The reason the Cult teaching Solars Sidereal Styles was put in is clear: appeasement of power gamers who can't stand the idea that their Solars don't have easy access to every powerful, cool toys in the game world.  They've been bitching about it for months on rpg.net and white-wolf.com after all.  


Seriously, if you're going to keep buying books, expect it to just get worse and worse.  White Wolf's general premise is to start strong with a few cool core books and ideas, then progressively dumb ass it down to inconsistent stupidity with expansions.

 

[Flagg]

The reason the Cult teaching Solars Sidereal Styles was put in is clear: appeasement of power gamers who can't stand the idea that their Solars don't have easy access to every powerful, cool toys in the game world.

Well yes, that's clear. However, it wouldn't really bother me if they made the effort to make such things logically consistent. This stuff isn't contradicting some other book, it's contradicting something said in the previous chapter.


I do like what I've read so far, inconsistencies aside. Fortunately those flaws are easily corrected by saying "they don't do that" without breaking any other aspect of the setting. There's nothing intrinsic to the premise of the Cult that requires them to teach Solars Sidereal MA, or take them on field trips to Yu-Shan, or share their secrets with Abyssals.


-S

 

[Andrew02]

The book also mentions that the Sidereals are paranoid about the Deathlords finding out their secret, yet they take in Abyssals! How stupid can these people be?
-S

I'm not going to try to look through the book, since I'm not likely to find the section I am thinking of and may very well have mentally fabricated it to reconcile myself to this very problem you outline, but I believe part of taking in Abyssals, at least from an 'in-game' perspective was to make Lytek happy. He wanted to take a look at Abyssals and see about cleaning them up.


Though, I am also noting how the Cult takes in pretty much anyone who is Exalted. Seems like a grand way to smooth over crossover game woes . . . "you're all from the Cult of the Illuminated. Everything is spiffy. Now drink the damn kool-aid."

 

[Joseph]

Though, I am also noting how the Cult takes in pretty much anyone who is Exalted. Seems like a grand way to smooth over crossover game woes . . . "you're all from the Cult of the Illuminated. Everything is spiffy. Now drink the damn kool-aid."

This seems pretty accurate.  The Cult of the Illuminated is just the Exalted manifestation of the D&D tradition of "A mysterious stranger gathers you in a tavern, and assigns you a mission for which you will all be rewarded greatly.  But you'll need to work together."

 

[memesis]

The book also mentions that the Sidereals are paranoid about the Deathlords finding out their secret, yet they take in Abyssals! How stupid can these people be?

Depending on how paranoid you really want to be, this isn't quite the problem it's made out to be.


"Hey Joe, get over here.  Remember how you learned Judge's Ear Technique and Motive-Discerning Technique?  Okay, listen close..... Sam, are you going to betray us to the Deathlords, or give them information in any way?  No?  Good.  Joe, sanctify this oath for me..."


I'm assuming the Sidereals can rule out the other options for making Abyssals into recon agents: remote scrying, hypnotic or sorcerous compulsion, possession by spirits or demons, and so forth.  There's plenty of canonical magic to do so.

 

[Spook]

How else are Solars going ot get someone to teach them Sidereal styles?  Infiltrating the Cult to get some martial arts training in perfectly approriate.

 

[Flagg]

How else are Solars going ot get someone to teach them Sidereal styles?

That's not the point. Training Solars in Sidereal MA runs directly counter to the goal of maintaining plausible deniability on the part of the Gold Faction.


It would be fine for a Sidereal to instruct a non-aligned Solar, but if a known member of the Cult whips out Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Style, it creates a direct, undeniable link between the Cult and the Gold Faction.


-S

 

[The Scorp]

Well, WW been known to contradict themselves in order to give the STs some "wiggle room" when telling their stories.  And I guess Im just gonna go along with that logic.  And thats sad.  


So, you could run a game where the GF Siddies ARE teaching the Styles and the BF Siddies know this, and will do everything in their power to destroy any Solar who knows it, and the GF's aren't trying to hide the CotI that much from the BFs.  Or that the GF's aren't teaching shit and definately keeping the CotI a secret.  I guess its up to the game.

 

[Joseph]

How else are Solars going ot get someone to teach them Sidereal styles?  

My answer to this is the same answer to "How should Solars get someone to teach them Necromancy," namely "Maybe they shouldn't be able to in general."


But that entirely aside, Stillborn's point is that it's completely useless trying to hide the Cult of the Illuminated's existence from the Bronze Faction if they start noticing Solars running around with Sidereal Styles.  Every person who could be teaching them those styles is more or less accounted for after all, and would surely be found out.


That said, I don't see how the Gold Faction could even HOPE to hide the Cult of the Illuminated from the Bronze Faction.  Be as much of a hidden master of secrets as you want, high-essence expending training programs are going to make you a fricking flaming beacon on the Loom of Fate, and someone as paranoid as Chejop Kejak is going to be keeping tabs on where the Gold Faction goes and what they do even if they could somehow hide it on the Loom.


It's nonsense, all of it.  The Bronze Faction would invariably know about the Cult of the Illuminated, and it would have it utterly ransacked in every meaningful sense.  The fact that you HAVE to dumb down the Inner Circle of the Bronze Faction to mere mortal competency in order to accomodate the "secret" Cult of the Illuminated is ridiculous.

 

[Joseph]

Well' date=' WW been known to contradict themselves in order to give the STs some "wiggle room" when telling their stories.  [/quote']
Storytellers don't need wiggle room in their stories, they can introduce it as they please.  White Wolf should focus on a consistent setting.


That said, you don't even NEED inconsistency for the wiggle room.  Just have it such that in the setting the Bronze Faction KNOWS about the Cult and is simply unwilling or unable for some reason to commit the resources to ruining it, perhaps for political reasons.  Problems solved with no inconsistency.  It wouldn't be the first thing the Bronze Faction didn't like but overlooked for various reasons.

 

[Persell]

At one point in the book they state that the Sidereals may be willing to teach certain Sidereal styles. At another point the book states that they won't teach Solars Sidereal styles because they don't want to tip their hand.


My thoughts are this:


Joe Solar has been training in Martial Arts for years now and shows quite the gift at it. Bob Solar is also gifted with it. Joe doesn't ask any questions, Bob keeps asking. We'll secretly induct Joe, but not Bob because he might be a liability in the near future.


Sidereals open to Solars, yes. All Solars, no.


In addition the Abyssal is rogue, and they keep eye on him at all times too. They know he's dangerous, but they can't tell him that.


As for parties in Yu-Shan, Sidereals know who belongs to what faction. If I know you are part of the Gold faction would it surprise me to see you with a Solar, it better fucking not. Besides, what doctrine/ laws/ power do Bronze faction Sidereals have over Solars in Yu-Shan, none, as long as a Solar doesn't do anything wrong, nobody can fucking touch him.

 

[Joseph]

At one point in the book they state that the Sidereals may be willing to teach certain Sidereal styles. At another point the book states that they won't teach Solars Sidereal styles because they don't want to tip their hand.

At another point you can see the mark where one of the writers spilled his heroin on the print copy, and it made it to the template by accident.  It explains everything.

Besides' date=' what doctrine/ laws/ power do Bronze faction Sidereals have over Solars in Yu-Shan, none, as long as a Solar doesn't do anything wrong, nobody can fucking touch him.[/quote']
Correct.  As long as the Solar is in Yu Shan, nothing can be done against that Solar directly.  Of course, it would be real easy to trump up false charges against him and get him auditted and imprisoned forever, but that's a side point; I don't think the Bronze Faction is THAT desparate.


That said, what that Solar being in Yu Shan escorted by a Sidereal DOES do is blow the cover on the Cult, completely.  And as soon as that Solar LEAVES, he can expect the Wyld Hunt to be waiting to exterminate him.  Sidereals are good at that sort of thing, prediction is key.

 

[Persell]

Correct.  As long as the Solar is in Yu Shan, nothing can be done against that Solar directly.  Of course, it would be real easy to trump up false charges against him and get him auditted and imprisoned forever, but that's a side point; I don't think the Bronze Faction is THAT desparate.
That said, what that Solar being in Yu Shan escorted by a Sidereal DOES do is blow the cover on the Cult, completely.  And as soon as that Solar LEAVES, he can expect the Wyld Hunt to be waiting to exterminate him.  Sidereals are good at that sort of thing, prediction is key.

Absolutely. The other thing I think some of you are not realizing is that the Bronze faction knows about the Cult, but because it is so widespread low key, and quiet, they can't just send in an army (or the Wyld Hunt) and wipe out the problem. They're like the VC during Vietnam, you know they're out there, but until they're shooting at you, what are you gonna due?

 

[Joseph]

The other thing I think some of you are not realizing is that the Bronze faction knows about the Cult' date=' but because it is so widespread low key, and quiet, they can't just send in an army (or the Wyld Hunt) and wipe out the problem. [/quote']
Being low key and quiet doesn't mean much when your enemy can both see the future and utilize connections with beings that MAINTAIN REALITY to find you.  No amount of hiding in a jungle SHOULD matter if the Sidereals want to find you, they have literally every POSSIBLE means of finding you, in the present or future.


It's just another thing that was totally fudged in the game.  The Sidereals shouldn't have any problem finding any Solar Exalt ever.  The fact that they do is just nonsense.

They're like the VC during Vietnam' date=' you know they're out there, but until they're shooting at you, what are you gonna due?[/quote']
Use your precognative abilities to find out where they are going to be tomorrow, and be waiting for them?  The Great Prophecy alone pretty handily demonstrates Sidereal ability to see the future; it might take a large group of them to perform an Astrological Ritual substantial enough to see Creation's future millenia later, but it couldn't take more than one or two to find a Solar Exalt a day or two in the future.

 

[Spook]

it also shows that the Sidereal ability to see in the future is very very cloudy

 

[Persell]

Ah, but there are Sidereals and Gods for the Gold faction that can block, conceal, and stall the Bronze faction.


The US has high powered satellites, do we know where Osama is? Only roughly.