Viewpoint Controversial themes in writing/RP

[Aarix]

Is it ever acceptable to portray these themes in writing, even if the writers themselves are not bigoted?

Is it possible to portray these themes, even in a negative light (such as the bigoted characters being antagonists in the story)?

Lastly, is it truly possible to separate the content of the art from its creator?

I'm in the "no subjects ought be complete no-goes" camp. Not only is it acceptable to portray heinous things, I believe it is important that these things are portrayed. The best art does not flinch from the uglier parts of reality...

I've seen quite a few people online agreeing with this, with this with the added stipulation that characters with heinous beliefs must/should always be obviously villainous, and I could not disagree more. Some other people here have already said this before, but I'll say my piece anyway--I think it is important to humanise people who hold heinous beliefs. Like it or not, every Nazi, every war criminal, every unethical capitalist is/was a human being, and to deny that humanity is to deny one's own capacity for evil. Left unchecked, this denial can result in dreadful blindspots for hypocrisy (and worse) to fester within.

There's an argument to be made for the idea that if you spend too long staring into the abyss, you'll find the abyss staring back... though I don't think that reading/thinking about evil is enough to make you evil. I think it can shine a light on certain thought processes with the potential to become evil ones.... but rather than being a bad thing, I think this is a very important function of art. If one finds oneself actually empathising with an evil character to a degree one finds horrifying, it's a very powerful wakeup call indeed.

...Of course, we also have to acknowledge that roleplay is often not exactly fine literature. I generally don't trust random internet strangers to handle nuanced depictions of sensitive topics with as much sensitivity as they require, so I don't tend to dive right into the IC-bigotry deep end before I've gotten to know someone and their level of media literacy... and also their reasons for roleplaying in the first place. As others have mentioned, some people RP for the sake of escapism. That's fine, whatever floats your boat... but it's not what I'm about, lol. I need my RPs to be uncomfortable and challenging. Though I don't like to make them too recreational either, if that makes sense... some people do seem to throw themselves too gleefully into dark subject for my tastes. Not that I think they're evil themselves, but I'm uncomfortable not treating these subjects with a certain level of delicacy... at the end of the day, all of it is kind of a matter of personal comfort.

The question of to what degree we can (or should) separate the art from the artist is not one which has a one-size-fits-all answer. Context means a lot... though in many cases, it's pretty obvious when people are/are not using characters as mouthpieces for their own true opinions.

 

[ClownShoes]

Some comments in the thread about which themes you personally avoid in RP intrigued me. It seems not wanting to write anything relating to homophobia, racism, and other forms of bigotry is a common response that came up. While it is a perfectly valid one, especially as writing is a form of escapism for some, it did get me thinking and I did not want to derail the original thread. Is it ever acceptable to portray these themes in writing, even if the writers themselves are not bigoted? Is it possible to portray these themes, even in a negative light (such as the bigoted characters being antagonists in the story)? Lastly, is it truly possible to separate the content of the art from its creator?

I already know how I feel about the topic, but I do believe it was generating some interesting discussion so thoughts?

honestly weirdest set off I saw at a ttrpg, was the gm smugly banning a guy because he wanted to play a run away princess and I'm paraphrasing "Royalty/Inheriting money is racist"
usually I see more serious reasons for character getting banned everything Ive seen has paled to that

like nothing sexual, or sexist, the guy just wanted to play a princess denying her royalheritag and running off to forge her own destiny.

I know this because this came out of the mouth of the GM. Never playing with strangers unless I know them longer than a day, specifically ttrpgs, character rps are easier to deal with.

 

[Sagey]

I love problematic themes and characters.

However, I also don't get to write them or write with them very often because most people won't. No big deal, really. I have plenty of books with the themes I like to take care of that. I also don't have triggers and won't cross my partner's and just generally weary of who I'd write any of that with anyway. I've seen a lot of keep those types of characters being 1-dimensional and overall boring because of it. If you want to play an asshole, sure, but even those types of people have more to them than being one. They're going to be different with different people, in different settings, there is going to be something that gets to them. They love, they have fears, they are still normal people.

honestly weirdest set off I saw at a ttrpg, was the gm smugly banning a guy because he wanted to play a run away princess and I'm paraphrasing "Royalty/Inheriting money is racist"
usually I see more serious reasons for character getting banned everything Ive seen has paled to that

like nothing sexual, or sexist, the guy just wanted to play a princess denying her royalheritag and running off to forge her own destiny.

I know this because this came out of the mouth of the GM. Never playing with strangers unless I know them longer than a day, specifically ttrpgs, character rps are easier to deal with.

Definitely the weirdest thing I have ever heard someone ban a person from their game for.

 

[Jannah]

honestly weirdest set off I saw at a ttrpg, was the gm smugly banning a guy because he wanted to play a run away princess and I'm paraphrasing "Royalty/Inheriting money is racist"
usually I see more serious reasons for character getting banned everything Ive seen has paled to that

like nothing sexual, or sexist, the guy just wanted to play a princess denying her royalheritag and running off to forge her own destiny.

I know this because this came out of the mouth of the GM. Never playing with strangers unless I know them longer than a day, specifically ttrpgs, character rps are easier to deal with.

This is pretty wild. Huge red flag for me tbh so I would have just bailed from such a site.

 

[Jannah]

I love problematic themes and characters.

However, I also don't get to write them or write with them very often because most people won't. No big deal, really. I have plenty of books with the themes I like to take care of that. I also don't have triggers and won't cross my partner's and just generally weary of who I'd write any of that with anyway. I've seen a lot of keep those types of characters being 1-dimensional and overall boring because of it. If you want to play an asshole, sure, but even those types of people have more to them than being one. They're going to be different with different people, in different settings, there is going to be something that gets to them. They love, they have fears, they are still normal people.

Sounds like the dilemma I have. I don't believe these themes should be off-limits (nor should they be romanticized obviously), but it's sometimes difficult to find partners to write these sorts of stories with for reasons already outlined in this thread. I get that some may be uncomfortable with it due to their own life experiences or whatever, but others wanting to explore these themes is not necessarily a bad thing unless they're using it as a cover for their own problematic worldviews (fortunately I've rarely seen this myself).

 

[Jannah]

I'm in the "no subjects ought be complete no-goes" camp. Not only is it acceptable to portray heinous things, I believe it is important that these things are portrayed. The best art does not flinch from the uglier parts of reality...

I've seen quite a few people online agreeing with this, with this with the added stipulation that characters with heinous beliefs must/should always be obviously villainous, and I could not disagree more. Some other people here have already said this before, but I'll say my piece anyway--I think it is important to humanise people who hold heinous beliefs. Like it or not, every Nazi, every war criminal, every unethical capitalist is/was a human being, and to deny that humanity is to deny one's own capacity for evil. Left unchecked, this denial can result in dreadful blindspots for hypocrisy (and worse) to fester within.

There's an argument to be made for the idea that if you spend too long staring into the abyss, you'll find the abyss staring back... though I don't think that reading/thinking about evil is enough to make you evil. I think it can shine a light on certain thought processes with the potential to become evil ones.... but rather than being a bad thing, I think this is a very important function of art. If one finds oneself actually empathising with an evil character to a degree one finds horrifying, it's a very powerful wakeup call indeed.

...Of course, we also have to acknowledge that roleplay is often not exactly fine literature. I generally don't trust random internet strangers to handle nuanced depictions of sensitive topics with as much sensitivity as they require, so I don't tend to dive right into the IC-bigotry deep end before I've gotten to know someone and their level of media literacy... and also their reasons for roleplaying in the first place. As others have mentioned, some people RP for the sake of escapism. That's fine, whatever floats your boat... but it's not what I'm about, lol. I need my RPs to be uncomfortable and challenging. Though I don't like to make them too recreational either, if that makes sense... some people do seem to throw themselves too gleefully into dark subject for my tastes. Not that I think they're evil themselves, but I'm uncomfortable not treating these subjects with a certain level of delicacy... at the end of the day, all of it is kind of a matter of personal comfort.

The question of to what degree we can (or should) separate the art from the artist is not one which has a one-size-fits-all answer. Context means a lot... though in many cases, it's pretty obvious when people are/are not using characters as mouthpieces for their own true opinions.

I think this point about a lot of bigots being otherwise regular people was already covered on another page. I think that alone is a reason to portray these types of characters. Often bigotry, even casual bigotry, comes from regular people all around us who are not necessarily bad. Misinformed perhaps, but not inherently malicious.

 

[ClownShoes]

This is pretty wild. Huge red flag for me tbh so I would have just bailed from such a site.

what kept me around longer was that the guy was running an rpg system I like, sadly it's a weird niche system, but luckily I lost interest in it now looking back at all the bad experiences with the system (usually mechanic based, only 2x cause of gms)
Honestly it's just solidified the idea that you have to Vet people in real time before you invite/join them, people are wild asf.

 

[ClownShoes]

I love problematic themes and characters.

However, I also don't get to write them or write with them very often because most people won't. No big deal, really. I have plenty of books with the themes I like to take care of that. I also don't have triggers and won't cross my partner's and just generally weary of who I'd write any of that with anyway. I've seen a lot of keep those types of characters being 1-dimensional and overall boring because of it. If you want to play an asshole, sure, but even those types of people have more to them than being one. They're going to be different with different people, in different settings, there is going to be something that gets to them. They love, they have fears, they are still normal people.


Definitely the weirdest thing I have ever heard someone ban a person from their game for.

Tell me about it, at the time I thought "holy shit this guy is weird" all I wanted to do was play a freaking magic bounty hunter

 

[Mitheral]

I fall into the "Everything is fair game" category. However, the site rules say otherwise. 'Nuff said.

 

[KAOS]

I generally have mostly written on forums with a terms of service I follow. However, I have been a part of googledocs roleplays which really you can write about pretty much anything. Within reason, who wants to write with psychopaths' who enjoy writing about the absolutely horrible and disgusting parts of this existence. I stay away from those.

But, I do love stories which really hit you. Sometimes you can't be on a forum with a terms of service to do that. Sometimes you have to be mindful of your audience and ages.
Though, I have to say, when I had the leniency, they made the best roleplays. Because of course I roleplayed with good people at that time who understood their audiences boundaries. And had no interest in SHOCKING people into feeling uncomfortable or controversial.


I would say the one thing I would run into often though was period pieces and age. Controversial today not then. Is it different because of the time? It's not really - and not - more romantic ; having the age difference. So, I generally bow and change that part of history but if I'm with a good group of people, maybe I wont change that aspect ; Though, again we don't cross that boundary. The end goal isn't SHOCK PEOPLE or smut your way into shocking people. Smut was meant for adults and adult characters ONLY. You just knew that. Even if a man in his forties was married off to someone eighteen the people who joined the role play had a clear understanding that was a minor character and so sex scene's with that minor character was off the table. It was just etiquette? Any complex scene's we often faded to black because I mean the imagination is a powerful thing. You don't have to write anything to make a point.

 

[Jannah]

I generally have mostly written on forums with a terms of service I follow. However, I have been a part of googledocs roleplays which really you can write about pretty much anything. Within reason, who wants to write with psychopaths' who enjoy writing about the absolutely horrible and disgusting parts of this existence. I stay away from those.

But, I do love stories which really hit you. Sometimes you can't be on a forum with a terms of service to do that. Sometimes you have to be mindful of your audience and ages.
Though, I have to say, when I had the leniency, they made the best roleplays. Because of course I roleplayed with good people at that time who understood their audiences boundaries. And had no interest in SHOCKING people into feeling uncomfortable or controversial.


I would say the one thing I would run into often though was period pieces and age. Controversial today not then. Is it different because of the time? It's not really - and not - more romantic ; having the age difference. So, I generally bow and change that part of history but if I'm with a good group of people, maybe I wont change that aspect ; Though, again we don't cross that boundary. The end goal isn't SHOCK PEOPLE or smut your way into shocking people. Smut was meant for adults and adult characters ONLY. You just knew that. Even if a man in his forties was married off to someone eighteen the people who joined the role play had a clear understanding that was a minor character and so sex scene's with that minor character was off the table. It was just etiquette? Any complex scene's we often faded to black because I mean the imagination is a powerful thing. You don't have to write anything to make a point.

Just a small nitpick, but an eighteen year old is not actually a minor. That's the age of legal adulthood in the vast majority of countries.

 

[KAOS]

Just a small nitpick, but an eighteen year old is not actually a minor. That's the age of legal adulthood in the vast majority of countries.

Yes but in many cultures it's still considered a minor and to me and my culture its still a minor.
I sort of get where your saying but I've taken university courses on brain function and your brain literally isn't totally formed till mid twenties sometimes thirties.
Not to toot my own horn but I have my reasons for believing a certain person with a certain brain capacity and neural network is still essentially a child because they are still developing.
Even when I was eighteen I sincerely wished older people did not role play heavy content with me because I did role play with older people and my brain certainly got imprinted on some pretty
heavy things so like I hear where your going with this but yes an 18,19,20 year old will still be a child to me. Because their frontal lobe is still very much developing. Brain maturity is certainly different then intelligence. I'm not comparing the two.

Adding something upon reflection: However, this does not mean role playing with minors isn't a possibility with mixed ages. You just have to be aware you writing with different brain developments and stages of life. So like, to clarify, I don't roleplay heavy themes with people I consider a minor. I can role play something PG or PG-13 but I'll have it age appropriate because to me. It's morally weird to have a role play with deep themes with someone like fifteen years younger than me. I just can not feel comfortable with that. Not at this stage of my life but you can certainly be creative with anyone at any age. Just I'm aware there is an age difference/brain maturity.

Also just adding this because wow in this history did things get heated?
I am so not judging. I mean either or I don't judge others for deciding otherwise. Maturity and intelligence are vast.
So like really my opinions mean little to nothing truly you can certainly be culturally an adult at a very young age even some counties 13. I don't judge.

Just speaking on myself

Cheers

 

[snicker_sage]

Just a small nitpick, but an eighteen year old is not actually a minor. That's the age of legal adulthood in the vast majority of countries.

In my country, you are no longer a minor if you turn 18, you are a legal adult and will always be perceived as such by litterally everyone.

So i agree with you here.