Other What's your religion?

[TeaMMatE11]

Right, but who are you to decide which parts are to be taken literally and which ones aren't? Are you saying we can actually understand God afterall? I thought God worked in mysterious ways? That's great news, actually, that we can indeed determine what we should take literally and what not. So then by that logic my approach is just as valid and correct as yours, at the very least. You can't possibly dispute my claims about the bible if it IS possible to understand God, since you can't know what is right and what's not any more than I do. But then if it isn't possible, the bible means nothing to us, since we couldn't ever possibly make out what is truth and what is not.


Though I am curious, if we are God's creation, and God is all-powerful as well as all good, it sure seems weird that we are not perfect, and that this represents our connection to God. Why would a distinct difference connect us to God?

This is where Christianity breaks off into branches.  The core ideas are the same; it's just how the different branches interpret them.  Some Christians believe the whole Bible is literal, whereas some people like me, do not.  For instance, I do not believe that the world was created in 6 literal days.  I believe that, in God's eyes, that time moves faster than us humans, so those 6 days could have been billions of years.


Some core beliefs are: 10 Commandments, Jesus' death, that God is all powerful, basically all the basic stuff is the same from branch to branch.


 So there are many different interpretations of the Bible.  Is this good?  I'm not sure, I guess it depends what the reader wants out of the Bible.  


I'm not sure what your second question is asking.  

 

[Sunbather]

This is where Christianity breaks off into branches.  The core ideas are the same; it's just how the different branches interpret them.  Some Christians believe the whole Bible is literal, whereas some people like me, do not.  For instance, I do not believe that the world was created in 6 literal days.  I believe that, in God's eyes, that time moves faster than us humans, so those 6 days could have been billions of years.


Some core beliefs are: 10 Commandments, Jesus' death, that God is all powerful, basically all the basic stuff is the same from branch to branch.


 So there are many different interpretations of the Bible.  Is this good?  I'm not sure, I guess it depends what the reader wants out of the Bible.  


I'm not sure what your second question is asking.  

I'm asking why would God create imperfect humans for a connection? Wouldn't it make sense to create something as perfect as him?


But I digress, it's irrelevant, since we can't utilize logic when it comes to God, I got that much from various discussion. God's incomprehensible to us, afterall, according to most believers. But the all-powerful aspect, I'm afraid, it does not make sense. At least as long as you claim God is also all-good. Because it simply is a contradiction that humans would be imperfect if they're the creation of an all-powerful as well as all-good being. It simply contradicts itself so inherently, it makes no sense even under the pretense we cannot understand God's logic. Because if say, in God's logic we ARE actually perfect, then why would we have to fight to get into heaven, or receive atonment for our sins?

 

[TeaMMatE11]

I'm asking why would God create imperfect humans for a connection? Wouldn't it make sense to create something as perfect as him?


But I digress, it's irrelevant, since we can't utilize logic when it comes to God, I got that much from various discussion. God's incomprehensible to us, afterall, according to most believers. But the all-powerful aspect, I'm afraid, it does not make sense. At least as long as you claim God is also all-good. Because it simply is a contradiction that humans would be imperfect if they're the creation of an all-powerful as well as all-good being. It simply contradicts itself so inherently, it makes no sense even under the pretense we cannot understand God's logic. Because if say, in God's logic we ARE actually perfect, then why would we have to fight to get into heaven, or receive atonment for our sins?

It was humans that made us imperfect.  Adam and Eve were the ones to introduce sin into the world, since they listened to the serpent rather than God. 


God did not create sin, humans created sin.  I have no idea if that makes sense, but that's what Genesis tells us.

 

[Wackadoodle0987]

It was humans that made us imperfect.  Adam and Eve were the ones to introduce sin into the world, since they listened to the serpent rather than God. 


God did not create sin, humans created sin.  I have no idea if that makes sense, but that's what Genesis tells us.

Adam and Eve? What of Lillith? 


You would claim that humans created Sin, but only because your God allowed them to. He set upon them the temptation of the Tree and the Serpent by allowing such things to exist. Lucifer's banishment is the result of your God's will, and thus he is directly the cause of the creation of Sin... by the Bible's account.


Any being whom has the ability to control the fate of the world may do so in a far kinder manner than such a malicious creature as your God. Grant humans free will, fantastic; but remove any obvious possibility of them utterly betraying your trust.


That's like a man's wife refusing to express her love for twenty years, then hiring someone to seduce him, and saying how disgusting he is for succumbing. Yes, he would be in the wrong, but no more so than her for deliberately setting up the situation. If God existed, he would have proven himself an incapable, irresponsible, cruel and malign idiot; and nothing more.


Please excuse me, I originally intended to say this is an endless argument and thus not worth having, but my bitter side took ove. I'm an atheist, by the way.

 

[Zombocalypse]

We're being punished for the original sin?


I'm sure my father would have loved to hear that when he was on death's door with cancer, haha. Luckily he survived. I don't put his survival down to God - its down purely to the treatment he received. 


Here's a question for you, if punishment like that exists, why do murderers and child predators walk free from it while the best people seem to be struck by it? My dad worked for 40 years to put the worst people alive behind bars, and somehow he's the one that's punished for "The Original Sin"?


Another prime example. Michael Bublė's son, Noah, three years old and just diagnosed with liver cancer. 


Does he deserve to be punished for 'The Original Sin'? 


If there is a God, I would not want to follow under the leadership of one that allows such selfishness and unjust suffering to take place, nor one that claims to be something he's not.

If there is a God and you didn't believe in Him, you're royally screwed. If there is no God yet you believed in one, it'll be for the greater good because at the least, you probably lived a moral life.


Pascal's Wager in play.

 

[Wackadoodle0987]

If there is a God and you didn't believe in Him, you're royally screwed. If there is no God yet you believed in one, it'll be for the greater good because at the least, you probably lived a moral life.


Pascal's Wager in play.

Oh no. Not the 'if you don't believe in god you can't have morals' argument... I hope I'm wrong in assuming that's what you're suggesting. PS - Religion is cause of FAR, FAR more immorality, division, murder, cruelty and violence than ANY other set of ideologies or beliefs... so, no, sense would dictate that if you believe in a God (whether there is one or not) that you're more likely to be a real nasty bugger than if you don't believe.


Also, don't throw the 'if you don't believe in God you're screwed) story. Christianity is very good at saying it offers salvation, but actually all it does is threaten damnation, and here's a good example.


The Bible, which is most Christians' 'go to' for life advice and moral support is absolutely cram-packed with sickeningly horrific ideals... and you use it as a basis for morality? Trust me, the person whom does good for the promise of eternal reward is nowhere near as kind or 'moral' as the person whom does good because it's what they believe they should do, not because their God told them to. As someone whom harbours no belief in an afterlife, my acts of selflessness are exactly that, for I anticipate no reward... a Christian does, because they 'know' their Lord approves and rewards such behaviour. If God punished kindliness, and rewarded hate, most Christians would be hateful.


Take extremists for example. Because they believe their God will reward them for harming certain people, they harm certain people. If you were born into a religion that tortured animals, you'd probably do it too; if you were born into a religion or culture that castrated women, you'd probably do it too.


Doing something because it is what your religion has taught you, rather than because you have come to the conclusion entirely of your own making, makes it far less worthy and deserving of note.

 

[Zombocalypse]

As someone whom harbours no belief in an afterlife, my acts of selflessness are exactly that, for I anticipate no reward... a Christian does, because they 'know' their Lord approves and rewards such behaviour. If God punished kindliness, and rewarded hate, most Christians would be hateful.

Number one: There is no such thing as a selfless act.


Number two: God is ultimately good. Everything he does is for the greater good of mankind, including his demands to kill your enemy.


Because after all, the enemy must be vanquished. It's a part of the greater good. Whether we like it or not, there will always be people who will fall short of ideal virtues. These people must be eliminated. Killing them would be a favor to them, as it would at least give them a chance of salvation.


It's called the survival of the fittest. The strong shall live and the weak shall die. That means, in terms of morals and religion and society, that evil men and evil women, and all other enemies of God, must be annihilated.


The only reason, and I mean ONLY reason, why Americans and other developed countries aren't killing each other, as opposed to terrorist-driven countries, is because we, the US and many others, don't fall short of the moral ideals of our time. We don't kill each other because we have no real reason to. What crime did your neighbor do unto you except that he or she had his or her dog poop in your lawn? That's hardly a vice.


If God gave me the opportunity to kill Adolf Hitler or Benito Mussolini, I'd take the job. Not only would I be doing humanity a favor, I'd also become a hero.

 

[Sunbather]

It was humans that made us imperfect.  Adam and Eve were the ones to introduce sin into the world, since they listened to the serpent rather than God. 


God did not create sin, humans created sin.  I have no idea if that makes sense, but that's what Genesis tells us.

So then God's creations were imperfect, because they were able to sin.

 

[Wackadoodle0987]

Number one: There is no such thing as a selfless act.


Number two: God is ultimately good. Everything he does is for the greater good of mankind, including his demands to kill your enemy.


Because after all, the enemy must be vanquished. It's a part of the greater good. Whether we like it or not, there will always be people who will fall short of ideal virtues. These people must be eliminated. Killing them would be a favor to them, as it would at least give them a chance of salvation.


It's called the survival of the fittest. The strong shall live and the weak shall die. That means, in terms of morals and religion and society, that evil men and evil women, and all other enemies of God, must be annihilated.


The only reason, and I mean ONLY reason, why Americans and other developed countries aren't killing each other, as opposed to terrorist-driven countries, is because we, the US and many others, don't fall short of the moral ideals of our time. We don't kill each other because we have no real reason to. What crime did your neighbor do unto you except that he or she had his or her dog poop in your lawn? That's hardly a vice.


If God gave me the opportunity to kill Adolf Hitler or Benito Mussolini, I'd take the job. Not only would I be doing humanity a favor, I'd also become a hero.

1 :: Of course there is, there are many forms of selflessness; just so few are capable.


2 :: If God was ultimately good, what he does would NOT be for the greater good of mankind, he would have killed us all swiftly and painlessly and saved the world a LOT of suffering.


People fall short of ideal virtues decided by other people, and we all have different points of view, so by that logic everyone should die for not conforming to everyone else's ideal.


If God eliminates the evil (which doesn't exist, there's no such crap as good or evil), then why are there so many cruel people or people willing to be cruel alive and allowed to exact such measures upon the mostly kind and otherwise innocent. Take a newborn child for example, born with a hideously disfiguring disease, whilst being blind, deaf and paralysed as well... ah yes, God is a wonder and ultimately good.


The only reason developed countries aren't killing each other is because they're developed. They have weaponry powerful enough to devastate the world, and warring with them would ruin both sides; neither would win. It ha nothing to do with morals. If morality mattered they wouldn't be mass murdering civilians in 'terrorist countries' as you so ignorantly called them. When Paris was bombed, if France cared about morals they wouldn't have murdered hundreds of thousands of Syrian civilians in retaliation - they did so because they could, and they were angry.


America and others bomb countries because they harbour some terrorists, whom are retaliating because these moral, developed countries invaded them, murdered them and tried to steal their resources to bolster their own economies.


If God gave you the opportunity to kill Mussolini or Hitler and you did som you'd just be known as the guy that did it; not a hero. Nobody cares who killed Genghis Khan, nobody cares who killed Caesar, nobody cares about Kaiser Wilhelm's death, nor Bismarck's nor that Cleopatra killed herself, nor how Stalin was left to die soaking in his own piss and vomit, nor anything about that... because what matters is their lives; no one cares about their deaths. Hitler is nothing compared to some people, he's merely known for it because it involved so many countries. Compare him to the thousands of nobodies that cut people up, rape, eat, murder, and otherwise commit disgusting acts against others. Hitler was guilty of fascism and extremism, but he was very tame compared to so many. And your God lets them live.


Your God is either cruel, malicious, ignorant, stupid, or non-existent. I grant you the courtesy of believing the latter.

 

[Zombocalypse]

1 :: Of course there is, there are many forms of selflessness; just so few are capable.


2 :: If God was ultimately good, what he does would NOT be for the greater good of mankind, he would have killed us all swiftly and painlessly and saved the world a LOT of suffering.


People fall short of ideal virtues decided by other people, and we all have different points of view, so by that logic everyone should die for not conforming to everyone else's ideal.


If God eliminates the evil (which doesn't exist, there's no such crap as good or evil), then why are there so many cruel people or people willing to be cruel alive and allowed to exact such measures upon the mostly kind and otherwise innocent. Take a newborn child for example, born with a hideously disfiguring disease, whilst being blind, deaf and paralysed as well... ah yes, God is a wonder and ultimately good.


The only reason developed countries aren't killing each other is because they're developed. They have weaponry powerful enough to devastate the world, and warring with them would ruin both sides; neither would win. It ha nothing to do with morals. If morality mattered they wouldn't be mass murdering civilians in 'terrorist countries' as you so ignorantly called them. When Paris was bombed, if France cared about morals they wouldn't have murdered hundreds of thousands of Syrian civilians in retaliation - they did so because they could, and they were angry.


America and others bomb countries because they harbour some terrorists, whom are retaliating because these moral, developed countries invaded them, murdered them and tried to steal their resources to bolster their own economies.


If God gave you the opportunity to kill Mussolini or Hitler and you did som you'd just be known as the guy that did it; not a hero. Nobody cares who killed Genghis Khan, nobody cares who killed Caesar, nobody cares about Kaiser Wilhelm's death, nor Bismarck's nor that Cleopatra killed herself, nor how Stalin was left to die soaking in his own piss and vomit, nor anything about that... because what matters is their lives; no one cares about their deaths. Hitler is nothing compared to some people, he's merely known for it because it involved so many countries. Compare him to the thousands of nobodies that cut people up, rape, eat, murder, and otherwise commit disgusting acts against others. Hitler was guilty of fascism and extremism, but he was very tame compared to so many. And your God lets them live.

Number one: Give me one example of your selfless behavior and I'll name at least three reasons why you did it, even without a formal education in psychology.


Number two: God was bored out of his mind. That's why he created us. What's the fun in being all-powerful if you were all alone?


Number three: People fall short of ideal virtues decided by written law. This is not subjective. The laws are clear. If you kill someone, you committed a crime. In laws regarding self defense, the defendant actually has to admit of intentionally killing someone before his defense of self-defense becomes acceptable.


Number four: I need a break. Too much thinking. lol

 

[Wackadoodle0987]

Number one: Give me one example of your selfless behavior and I'll name at least three reasons why you did it, even without a formal education in psychology.


Number two: God was bored out of his mind. That's why he created us. What's the fun in being all-powerful if you were all alone?


Number three: People fall short of ideal virtues decided by written law. This is not subjective. The laws are clear. If you kill someone, you committed a crime. In laws regarding self defense, the defendant actually has to admit of intentionally killing someone before his defense of self-defense becomes acceptable.


Number four: I need a break. Too much thinking. lol

1 :: Giving my money to someone I disliked in secondary school so he could have lunch, as he had none, thereby causing myself to have to walk 6 miles home. Simple, but I gained absolutely nothing from it, but rather lost, and neither do I regret it; for walking is easy, but going hungry is less so. Please, explain without making ridiculous assumptions.


2 :: God was bored... yeah, that about sums it up. Just like how kids get bored and start pressing their thumb on passing ants.


3 :: Written law affects God's judgement? I thought the Bible was God's word... Oh, but I forget, people pick and choose which parts of the Bible to adhere to. At points in the Bible, and especially within the old testament, slavery, beating of women, beating of children, and murder are all condoned.  All of these actions are considered reprehensible by modern-day standards. Despite being prevalent in the Bible, they are ignored by most contemporary Christians.  This points towards the fact that moderates of any faith do not get their morals from God, as they pick and choose which of his edicts to obey.


Laws are completely subjective, that's why they differ everywhere you go. They're put into place by individuals with power and / or influence that want the state run how they wish it to. And when sufficient evidence is provided, the defendants confession is unnecessary for a guilty verdict... ironically, considering despite sufficient evidence, so many Christians deem their beliefs to be wholly true, and the Bible to be the word of God.


4 :: Quite the contrary. Too little thinking is going on. Merely acceptance, blind agreement to something you've convinced yourself is a nice thing, and are ignorant to the harsh reality of the world.

 

[ZappiestAbyss]

I believe in God. Just not the Bible, the Bible was written by men, not God. Also for you to blame your problems, or in this case disabilities, is wrong. God allows us to suffer so he may test us, so that way we can prove ourselves worthy to enter heaven. 


These are my thoughts however, dissect and insult them as you wish.

 

[DrTrollinski]

Okay, it's time to give me one more of input here, because what I'm reading is absolutely absurd.


Once again, a conversation has turned into a debate of 'I'm much better than you because I support and follow xyz' - it's basically as good of an argument as the one of 'Mine's bigger than yours'. Let's just throw that out there.


Personally, as I've said before, if there is a god out there in somewhere, watching over us, then fine. But if I get to the gates of heaven and he asks me exactly what I think, I'll be honest. I think God is possibly one of the most evil, cruel, heartless, and inconsiderate beings that has ever possibly existed. He gave us life, but for some of us, at what cost? As beautiful as life is, I have seen more suffering in my time then I care to even talk about. Even in my family alone there has been more suffering than I can even remember, and yet, people have the nerve to sit here and tell me that that's 'God testing our faith'? - Oh, yes, I'm sure. I'm sure that when God decided to let my nephew's father die of a brain hemorrhage that he had his faith in mind, because God seems like an absolutely cracking guy, he really does. I'd love to sit and get a beer with him one day (if said god actually exists) and ask him what he was thinking when he had this existence of us brewing.


Now, a big part of Christianity is the creationism, is it not? Let's put that into context. If the all-good and all-powerful god is the creator of all, then that leads us down to one thing. God created, for one, the bug I mentioned earlier on. The eye-eating bug, whose life cycle is purely to burrow its way into a child's eye, eat the eye from the inside out, thus making the said victim blind. That also means that God himself has created everything else similar. All these horrific creatures that can cause so much pain and suffering, some that can kill within literally minutes - God created cancer, AIDS, cholera, dysentery, diabetes, polio, tuberculosis - The list goes on.


Don't get me wrong, if you're religious, I respect that, but I will tell you right now why I feel religion no longer has a respectable hold on things in the world. Keep in mind, I mean no disrespect, and this is just me stating some points.


Let's start from the beginning.


So, as history and science has proven to us, humans have been here for roughly 200,000 years. For the first few thousand of those, we've suffered greatly. We had more people dying in childbirth then we did people in general, and the average life expectancy was around 25. Now, that didn't change for a long time. You had humans dying of every single disease you could imagine, every ailment, every force of the elements. It wasn't a pleasant time. But, regardless, we made advancements, and things gradually got better for the human race as a whole.


Meanwhile, though, instead of being part of that big change, instead of embracing new (I understand also ineffective) medical techniques, instead of helping to develop that, one group of people said, let's go have a revelation in the middle of the dessert? It just doesn't make sense. It's completely, completely senseless.


Moving on from that: I know times change. But people are refusing to believe that certain aspects of the bible even exist - let's not forget the passage in which God allowed 42 children to be mauled by bears purely because they mocked a bald man. Now, there're some passages that are actually too inappropriate to put on the website due to site rules, but, if you do some research, you'll see that some of them are quite sickening. Alongside that, the depiction of hell is actually violently sexual in more ways than one, yet somehow people can produce the argument that it's okay to show art depictions of all of this to children? To put it in school books? Is that really something you want kids to be exposed to? Still, my point continues - there are many passages that people choose to ignore now, such as the one that states that you're not allowed to be in the house with your wife if she's on her period, and how anything she touches in this time is immediately 'dirty'. Seems like whoever wrote the bible had a lot of things in mind, but I have no idea what they were thinking with that.


Next, the 'God is only testing our faith with disease and disability'


Once again, has this not been something that's existed as far back as when we didn't  know what half of the things that killed us were? It makes sense, honestly. It makes sense that someone would believe that it's a test of faith, because what other explanation is there? What else did we know back then that allowed us to say anything more? (Also, on the back of a lot of this talk, people should read the Old Testament. Quite a lot of questionable stuff in there) - Back to my point, though. When the bible was initially written, we had no other way of knowing what it was that was killing us, so why not have it be God? And that argument, although we now know what it is that's causing this said illness, and we know for a fact that it's not some other force giving us this disease or disability, it's still used in argument - It's still used when people say 'Why should I believe in God when he's done this to me?' - It's used as 'he's testing your faith, son.'


Theories literally take 1 'other result' to be disproven. There's probably millions of theories about the power of god, many of which can be disproven by anyone and everything. That's not entirely relevant, though, but what I'm saying there is that the theory of god not existing can also be disproven, with concrete evidence.


I'll quickly give you guys my reasoning to why I'll never give myself over to a religion, though:


For one, I'm Type 1 Diabetic. I know for a fact that God has played no hand in this, nor will he ever play a hand in this. I've lived with it for nearly 14 years, and there's no signs of that changing (unless I somehow die. Let's hope not) - Now, I read not too long ago about two heavily Christian parents, whose 11-year-old daughter was Type 1 Diabetic. Now, instead of taking her to the hospital while she was wasting away in bed, in agony and suffering, what did they do? They said Nope! Let's rely on the power of God to save her from her ailment! All because their scripture didn't allow them to go to a doctor.


And believe it or not, after a few days of endless suffering and pain, she died. Just like that. An innocent child died, and the biggest traitor of all was her parents, because they put all their faith into God and prayed. And where did that get them? Well, from what I remember, in prison. Which is exactly where they, and anyone else that would do such a thing, deserve to be. Either that or a mental hospital, both work just fine. And the point I make with that is, how can two humans be so disgustingly brainwashed into thinking that words from a book would save their dying daughter? When they had access to good healthcare literally down the street from them?


Now, I've been on the receiving end of diabetes causing you issues. That girl's blood glucose level would have been through the roof, and I've been there. I was there when I was eight years old, and legitly, you can feel your body gradually giving up on itself, piece by piece.


I experienced it for two hours.


Imagine experiencing that for nearly a month.


Second example, a very good friend of mine (let's just call him David for anonymity), he suffers from schizophrenia but also from quite bad seizures at points. He was born into religion (which, in all cases, I think is very unfair. Children should be allowed to make their own choices) and was forced to go to a Catholic school as he was growing up. He was force-fed hateful views right through his childhood, basically, and he said that Catholic school was probably one of the worst places he'd ever been in his life. Not that all religion-focused schools are like that, but some are awful, all you have to do is read some articles online and you'll see perfect examples. Now, regardless of that, that's not the worst part - He's mentally scarred by his step-mother. Not only is she extreme Christian, but she's claimed to be a prophet in herself, one that uses the 'power of god' to heal people. She's tried it, and believe it or not, she's failed (false prophets are an almighty sin, if I'm not wrong?), but with my friend David, she's been on his back for years telling him that he has a 'Devil inside him' which causes his seizures (refer back to the 'we had no idea what was causing things' part I said a few paragraphs above), and you know something? This poor guy has moved away from them, about two States, and he still has memories from all of that hitting him like a brick wall. Is it fair that she's done that? That she's forced all of this onto him? Or is this merely another one of 'god's tests'?


You can choose to believe that story, or you can not. I don't mind. Regardless, I won't be giving you any real names to try and prove it.


The Ten Commandments, as nice as they are, are simple. Don't steal, don't kill, etc. These are back from a time in which there was no proper justice system. If you ask me, The Ten Commandments are probably the most logical part of Christianity. 


As for what's been said above, about there being no such thing as selflessness - Just stop. Please. Just stop. In my eyes, there is no hand that guides us to commit acts of kindness, that's all on our own back. I know that from personal experience - I have had many chances to put my books down and walk away, but I haven't. That's my choice, and I don't do it in the name of some mystical dictator. Another thing that ultimately ruined my concept of faith and religion, aside from people using a book written by a group of people however long ago to justify violence and murder, is one little experiment that was carried out. I don't recall the name of said experiment, but sadly it didn't get much publicity. It's rather semi-famous, though. If you have the time you should try and find it, it's very interesting.


In said experiment, there were three groups of people going in for surgery. One group was prayed for and they were told they were prayed for, one was prayed for but not told about it, and the other wasn't prayed for at all.


The result was this: People that were prayed for, in those two groups, people died during surgery. In the group that wasn't prayed for, no one died. 


I'm not saying that non-believers get better treatment, but I'm saying the concept of the power of god is vastly exaggerated. Praying for these people held no benefit compared to the people that weren't prayed for. It was all a game of chance.


For reasons given above, and for what religion can drive people to do (don't even get me started on child sacrifices and all that), that is why I've made the decision that I can never be religious.


If a god exists, fine, I'll believe so. 


But for now, there is no proof god exists, no proof that he has any influence over anything, and no proof that he's the almighty creator of all. As for something else that was said above: I'm screwed if I don't believe in God? Buddy, I was screwed even when I did believe in him, so don't feed me that hand of hay. I don't need to justify my existence or my morals with a 'God' - I've met people that have much better morals than God seems to have, so, the concept of us 'being alone in the dark' if we don't believe in god, is quite frankly a complete joke. 


If god wants me to believe, then he needs to give me a reason to do so. I don't want to watch videos on 'arguments' about God, I want proof. 

 

[Zombocalypse]

Okay, it's time to give me one more of input here, because what I'm reading is absolutely absurd.


Once again, a conversation has turned into a debate of 'I'm much better than you because I support and follow xyz' - it's basically as good of an argument as the one of 'Mine's bigger than yours'. Let's just throw that out there.


Personally, as I've said before, if there is a god out there in somewhere, watching over us, then fine. But if I get to the gates of heaven and he asks me exactly what I think, I'll be honest. I think God is possibly one of the most evil, cruel, heartless, and inconsiderate beings that has ever possibly existed. He gave us life, but for some of us, at what cost? As beautiful as life is, I have seen more suffering in my time then I care to even talk about. Even in my family alone there has been more suffering than I can even remember, and yet, people have the nerve to sit here and tell me that that's 'God testing our faith'? - Oh, yes, I'm sure. I'm sure that when God decided to let my nephew's father die of a brain hemorrhage that he had his faith in mind, because God seems like an absolutely cracking guy, he really does. I'd love to sit and get a beer with him one day (if said god actually exists) and ask him what he was thinking when he had this existence of us brewing.


Now, a big part of Christianity is the creationism, is it not? Let's put that into context. If the all-good and all-powerful god is the creator of all, then that leads us down to one thing. God created, for one, the bug I mentioned earlier on. The eye-eating bug, whose life cycle is purely to burrow its way into a child's eye, eat the eye from the inside out, thus making the said victim blind. That also means that God himself has created everything else similar. All these horrific creatures that can cause so much pain and suffering, some that can kill within literally minutes - God created cancer, AIDS, cholera, dysentery, diabetes, polio, tuberculosis - The list goes on.


Don't get me wrong, if you're religious, I respect that, but I will tell you right now why I feel religion no longer has a respectable hold on things in the world. Keep in mind, I mean no disrespect, and this is just me stating some points.


Let's start from the beginning.


So, as history and science has proven to us, humans have been here for roughly 200,000 years. For the first few thousand of those, we've suffered greatly. We had more people dying in childbirth then we did people in general, and the average life expectancy was around 25. Now, that didn't change for a long time. You had humans dying of every single disease you could imagine, every ailment, every force of the elements. It wasn't a pleasant time. But, regardless, we made advancements, and things gradually got better for the human race as a whole.


Meanwhile, though, instead of being part of that big change, instead of embracing new (I understand also ineffective) medical techniques, instead of helping to develop that, one group of people said, let's go have a revelation in the middle of the dessert? It just doesn't make sense. It's completely, completely senseless.


Moving on from that: I know times change. But people are refusing to believe that certain aspects of the bible even exist - let's not forget the passage in which God allowed 42 children to be mauled by bears purely because they mocked a bald man. Now, there're some passages that are actually too inappropriate to put on the website due to site rules, but, if you do some research, you'll see that some of them are quite sickening. Alongside that, the depiction of hell is actually violently sexual in more ways than one, yet somehow people can produce the argument that it's okay to show art depictions of all of this to children? To put it in school books? Is that really something you want kids to be exposed to? Still, my point continues - there are many passages that people choose to ignore now, such as the one that states that you're not allowed to be in the house with your wife if she's on her period, and how anything she touches in this time is immediately 'dirty'. Seems like whoever wrote the bible had a lot of things in mind, but I have no idea what they were thinking with that.


Next, the 'God is only testing our faith with disease and disability'


Once again, has this not been something that's existed as far back as when we didn't  know what half of the things that killed us were? It makes sense, honestly. It makes sense that someone would believe that it's a test of faith, because what other explanation is there? What else did we know back then that allowed us to say anything more? (Also, on the back of a lot of this talk, people should read the Old Testament. Quite a lot of questionable stuff in there) - Back to my point, though. When the bible was initially written, we had no other way of knowing what it was that was killing us, so why not have it be God? And that argument, although we now know what it is that's causing this said illness, and we know for a fact that it's not some other force giving us this disease or disability, it's still used in argument - It's still used when people say 'Why should I believe in God when he's done this to me?' - It's used as 'he's testing your faith, son.'


Theories literally take 1 'other result' to be disproven. There's probably millions of theories about the power of god, many of which can be disproven by anyone and everything. That's not entirely relevant, though, but what I'm saying there is that the theory of god not existing can also be disproven, with concrete evidence.


I'll quickly give you guys my reasoning to why I'll never give myself over to a religion, though:


For one, I'm Type 1 Diabetic. I know for a fact that God has played no hand in this, nor will he ever play a hand in this. I've lived with it for nearly 14 years, and there's no signs of that changing (unless I somehow die. Let's hope not) - Now, I read not too long ago about two heavily Christian parents, whose 11-year-old daughter was Type 1 Diabetic. Now, instead of taking her to the hospital while she was wasting away in bed, in agony and suffering, what did they do? They said Nope! Let's rely on the power of God to save her from her ailment! All because their scripture didn't allow them to go to a doctor.


And believe it or not, after a few days of endless suffering and pain, she died. Just like that. An innocent child died, and the biggest traitor of all was her parents, because they put all their faith into God and prayed. And where did that get them? Well, from what I remember, in prison. Which is exactly where they, and anyone else that would do such a thing, deserve to be. Either that or a mental hospital, both work just fine. And the point I make with that is, how can two humans be so disgustingly brainwashed into thinking that words from a book would save their dying daughter? When they had access to good healthcare literally down the street from them?


Now, I've been on the receiving end of diabetes causing you issues. That girl's blood glucose level would have been through the roof, and I've been there. I was there when I was eight years old, and legitly, you can feel your body gradually giving up on itself, piece by piece.


I experienced it for two hours.


Imagine experiencing that for nearly a month.


Second example, a very good friend of mine (let's just call him David for anonymity), he suffers from schizophrenia but also from quite bad seizures at points. He was born into religion (which, in all cases, I think is very unfair. Children should be allowed to make their own choices) and was forced to go to a Catholic school as he was growing up. He was force-fed hateful views right through his childhood, basically, and he said that Catholic school was probably one of the worst places he'd ever been in his life. Not that all religion-focused schools are like that, but some are awful, all you have to do is read some articles online and you'll see perfect examples. Now, regardless of that, that's not the worst part - He's mentally scarred by his step-mother. Not only is she extreme Christian, but she's claimed to be a prophet in herself, one that uses the 'power of god' to heal people. She's tried it, and believe it or not, she's failed (false prophets are an almighty sin, if I'm not wrong?), but with my friend David, she's been on his back for years telling him that he has a 'Devil inside him' which causes his seizures (refer back to the 'we had no idea what was causing things' part I said a few paragraphs above), and you know something? This poor guy has moved away from them, about two States, and he still has memories from all of that hitting him like a brick wall. Is it fair that she's done that? That she's forced all of this onto him? Or is this merely another one of 'god's tests'?


You can choose to believe that story, or you can not. I don't mind. Regardless, I won't be giving you any real names to try and prove it.


The Ten Commandments, as nice as they are, are simple. Don't steal, don't kill, etc. These are back from a time in which there was no proper justice system. If you ask me, The Ten Commandments are probably the most logical part of Christianity. 


As for what's been said above, about there being no such thing as selflessness - Just stop. Please. Just stop. In my eyes, there is no hand that guides us to commit acts of kindness, that's all on our own back. I know that from personal experience - I have had many chances to put my books down and walk away, but I haven't. That's my choice, and I don't do it in the name of some mystical dictator. Another thing that ultimately ruined my concept of faith and religion, aside from people using a book written by a group of people however long ago to justify violence and murder, is one little experiment that was carried out. I don't recall the name of said experiment, but sadly it didn't get much publicity. It's rather semi-famous, though. If you have the time you should try and find it, it's very interesting.


In said experiment, there were three groups of people going in for surgery. One group was prayed for and they were told they were prayed for, one was prayed for but not told about it, and the other wasn't prayed for at all.


The result was this: People that were prayed for, in those two groups, people died during surgery. In the group that wasn't prayed for, no one died. 


I'm not saying that non-believers get better treatment, but I'm saying the concept of the power of god is vastly exaggerated. Praying for these people held no benefit compared to the people that weren't prayed for. It was all a game of chance.


For reasons given above, and for what religion can drive people to do (don't even get me started on child sacrifices and all that), that is why I've made the decision that I can never be religious.


If a god exists, fine, I'll believe so. 


But for now, there is no proof god exists, no proof that he has any influence over anything, and no proof that he's the almighty creator of all. As for something else that was said above: I'm screwed if I don't believe in God? Buddy, I was screwed even when I did believe in him, so don't feed me that hand of hay. I don't need to justify my existence or my morals with a 'God' - I've met people that have much better morals than God seems to have, so, the concept of us 'being alone in the dark' if we don't believe in god, is quite frankly a complete joke. 


If god wants me to believe, then he needs to give me a reason to do so. I don't want to watch videos on 'arguments' about God, I want proof. 

Too long. Didn't read. lol

 

[Wackadoodle0987]

Too long. Didn't read. lol

Not surprising. Ignore reason, logic, consistency, and sensibility. The least you could do is offer him the courtesy of paying attention to his argument, and avoid being both ignorant and rude simultaneously.

 

[Inner Power]

What's your religion?


Personally, I am a Christian. I'm on Jesus's team.


I was wondering how many Christians there are in this website. I was just curious.

How did this thread go from this to what it is now? Wow, so much hostility.

 

[DrTrollinski]

Too long. Didn't read. lol

Nice one. Goes to show how impossible it is to have a reasonable discussion nowadays. "I have an opinion and I'm willing to discuss it but so help me God it someone's against that" is the general go-to with a lot of things in these situations.


I thought you'd at least be able to be a tad bit respectful, but I suppose that was a poor assumption to make.


As for the too long; didn't read comment - with the length of the Bible, I don't think that response is valid for this discussion. 

 

[Wackadoodle0987]

How did this thread go from this to what it is now? Wow, so much hostility.

It's the unfortunate inevitability when concerning such matters. One person says something, another strongly disagrees, argument ensues.

 

[Zombocalypse]

It's the unfortunate inevitability when concerning such matters. One person says something, another strongly disagrees, argument ensues.

It's an unfortunate inevitability because of the lack of faith in Jesus Christ.


We aren't living in antiquity where Nero would have us tortured and killed just by being Christians. Devoting your life to the Son of God is not that hard.

 

[Wackadoodle0987]

It's an unfortunate inevitability because of the lack of faith in Jesus Christ.

Quit spouting nonsense. Believe what you will, but only so long as you understand it is just that. Your beliefs are not fact, so stop pretending that they're a justifiable basis for accusation.


Aside from that, why only lack of faith in Jesus? What of Jehovah? Allah? Zeus? Ptah? Brahman? While we're at it, why not the Maker? Eru? Lack of faith in the Big Bang?


The moment you understand why you don't believe in any of those, is the moment you'll understand why we don't believe in Jesus. If faith in Jesus would meant nobody would argue, then there wouldn't be Catholics and Protestants, and thousands wouldn't have died over such a petty argument. If it meant anything, then we wouldn't be arguing now. 


With or without religion, there would be people that do good things, and people that do bad things. You believe that God created you, gave you sense, reason and intelligence... then by squandering them as you do, you insult the very thing you believe in.

 

[Sunbather]

It's an unfortunate inevitability because of the lack of faith in Jesus Christ.


We aren't living in antiquity where Nero would have us tortured and killed just by being Christians. Devoting your life to the Son of God is not that hard.

Well, except you know, you can't actually devote your life to faith, since it's all contradicting itself.

 

[kibou]

Hey guys, casual reminder that we do have rules against discriminating against religion (or a lack of) regardless of what that religion is, and we also have a negative environment rule.


I'd also like to discourage anyone using this thread to try to convert anyone either- it'll most likely only end with bad feelings on both sides, and you should respect the beliefs other people have.


Discussion is okay, but please keep it polite!

 

[Saccharine Cyanide]

Before anyone makes another post, can you please ask yourself this: am I actually trying to change someone's opinion here, or do I just want to be right?

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

I may have got out of line earlier in this thread by speaking the truth very bluntly, but someone has to throw some cold water on this.

 

[kibou]

Regardless of your opinions, we still have rules about respecting each other's beliefs and keeping a positive environment.


You have to respect theirs, but they also have to respect yours.


It's not a rule necessarily on this site, but in my experience trying to convince someone their religion (or lack of) is wrong, or that your religion (or lack of) is right, ends up with everyone involved being upset.


Anyways, to get this thread back on topic! I was raised fundamentalist, but I'm an atheist now. ^^ There's some philosophies/ideas of thought I follow/believe, but nothing like an actual religion.