Other What's your religion?

[Shireling]

So let's use that scenario then. Suicide is a sin, no? So then God sinned themselves instead of just making everything perfect. Is that not proof of coming short of being omnipotent?

You're missing the point. The Death of Jesus wasn't a suicide, it was a sacrament. Jesus embodied the sacrificial lamb. In the Old Testament, Jews used to sacrifice their best lambs to atone their sins. They did this because lambs were innocent and pure. Jesus was the most innocent and pure person, thus his sacrifice is meant to parallel this process. 


Its less of a suicide and more of a Jesus stepping in front of a firing squad and taking all the bullets for you if you want. 

 

[Lord Pug]

I'm an atheist. Always have been, always will be. I honestly think all this religion stuff is kind of...stupid.

 

[StriderBro]

I'm a deist. Which, the best way I can describe that is, sort of a mixture of Christianity, atheism, realism, and science.

 

[Dugym]

I'm a deist. Which, the best way I can describe that is, sort of a mixture of Christianity, atheism, realism, and science.

Deism: Belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe.


Some other definitions: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/deism

 

[StriderBro]

Deism: Belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. 

Yea, pretty much. I believe that there was a god, and he did creation and all that shit, but pretty much dipped the fuck out after that. Not Adam and Eve, but certainly made the earth. Like some supreme primordial space architect. Going around the universe, making civilizations. 

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

There are so many things wrong with this.


First of all, to say they had anything to do with ending slavery, creating women's rights, or democracy, is a blatant falsehood. There's no evidence to even support that, because it's just not true, in any capacity. There aren't even commandments that directly relate to any of those things. The western world would have been created with or without them, their baring on that entire history is practically non-existent. Without the Sumerian god Anu, the bible probably wouldn't exist. That statement actually holds more weight,


Hitler was a Catholic. Many soldiers who are devout believers commit murder, this video is absurd.


More people have been killed, whether by god's actions in the bible, in the name of god, or by believers of god, than as a result of the holocaust. So clearly, belief in god has no baring on distinguishing right from wrong.


Moses was a great man, and the world's first real philosopher. Whether you believe or not, we can all leave it at that.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

You know a lot of Christians seem to think Moses discovered God. That it's the one and only true god.


The concept of deities, or gods, dates back to the Sumerians, probably even before that, but Sumerians were among the first to invent writing, so they could preserve their beliefs. Anu was the Sky Father, or Heaven Father. Sounds oddly familiar in a way, lol.


But, if Moses said it, and you were raised under the influence of it, or discovered and were drawn to it, it must not only be true, but absolute in every sense of the word.


If you told anyone in this day and age, that you climbed a mountain, where a burning bush calling itself god gave you ten laws to inscribe upon a stone tablet and carry forth into the word, you'd be locked up and heavily medicated.


What makes Moses so special and absolute, above any and all else?


I like the color red. It's no better or more special than blue, it's just my personal opinion. Christians will declare any other religion folly, fiction, archaic children's stories. Yet they hold 1 archaic belief to be absolute, and undeniable.


I'm sorry, but I'm a man of logic, fact, evidence, observation.


Now on a different note altogether, I find it interesting how you can trace the evolution of religions. Many different cultures believed in deities, usually involving a creation myth. Some of these cultures never had significant prior contact, if any by the time they had developed their religions and beliefs.


The Aztecs had gods, a whole pantheon.


The Japanese had their own gods, and a beautiful creation story that was far more complex than most (you should really read up on it, it's eerily... astronomical, lol).


The Sumerians had their own pantheon as I mentioned earlier.


You've got the Vikings, Canaanites, Egyptian Atenism, the people of Crete had their own religion the average person doesn't even know existed, Tengriism from Asian and one the oldest known religions in history, even the Native North Americans had their beliefs and deities of their own.


So what inspired all these cultures of differing regions and societies to develop and practice faith in a higher power? What inspired them all? Why does this phenomena even exist? Could so many people have really got the same general ideas, or have been contacted and influenced by real deities?


Logic says no, of course. There cannot be so many gods, each responsible for a universal power and creation myth. Any logical human being can see this and grapple with the gravity of it. Either they are all real, none of them are real, or the very first inspired the rest (but again, there was no known or feasible contact with North America or South America). Just one among hundreds can't be the only legitimate one, especially if others predate it. That's basic common sense.


But why? How? lol I love it. It fascinates me to no end.


Now one who is acquainted with history and basic anthropology can argue that it all began in our early stages of development as cultures and societies. Before agriculture, before villages, when we were but roaming tribes of hunters and gathers, looking to the stars for guidance. This is where many believe it comes from. Back then we couldn't grasp the nature and origin of these lights in the sky. But we knew one thing, these stars seemed to watch over us. Celestial bodies are a prominent theme and popular characters in archaic religions. They also guided us, assisted in day to to day life, and survival. The sun gave us light to work and live by during the day. The stars provided a sort of ancient calendar. By reading the stars we could navigate much better by using their position as a reference point in the sky, and using the sun we could do the very same. The stars also told us when the cold weather was coming, and that helped us predict the migration patterns of our food sources.


People, regardless of where they are from, were smart enough to figure this out. Over generations, it evolved into something more. We began to see these celestial bodies as other worldly forces, deities.


Ever wonder why some ancient cultures lived in fear of the sun?


My religion is understanding, thirsting for knowledge, truth, fact. Understanding who we are, where we came from, and why we're here, not through archaic scripture, but the study of us. 

 

[Sunbather]

No, saying Jesus was God in human form is not correct. I can see why that confused you. 


God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three seperate beings. They are not the same being. And yet they are one God. And not three being treated as one collective. They are One Being. And yet they are not.


Amazing, isn't it?


Now, back to this whole all-good, all-powerful discussion. Just be clear that I do not understand this, just the same way that you do not likely know everything about your body's very atoms. It's part of who we are, and yet we dont know the full extent. Except atoms can be understood, and God cannot.


Do you think the whole world would love God even more if He had just blinked sin away? Hm? No? That is correct. He needed to show us His love for us. And what better way than to die for us? This was the way to open the gates of Heaven and allow us to enter. And it was not suicide. He gave us humans here on earth the choice to kill Him. And don't forget that Jesus is both God and man. The man part of him did not want to be killed. He even says in the garden before he dies, " Father, let this cup(death and suffering) pass from me, yet not as I will, but as You will."


I know it might not make much sense, but there it is. 

Got it. It's basically you cannot understand it, but it's true. I'm sure that's a comforting thought if you can delude yourself into buying into that, but it's not for me, nor do I find discussions based on these kinds of approaches.

You're missing the point. The Death of Jesus wasn't a suicide, it was a sacrament. Jesus embodied the sacrificial lamb. In the Old Testament, Jews used to sacrifice their best lambs to atone their sins. They did this because lambs were innocent and pure. Jesus was the most innocent and pure person, thus his sacrifice is meant to parallel this process. 


Its less of a suicide and more of a Jesus stepping in front of a firing squad and taking all the bullets for you if you want. 

I just assumed my fellow conversation partner's point for discussion. But still God just works in mysterious ways! Perhaps you just don't understand that he actually committed suicide. The Old Testament isn't taken to be literal afterall, right? The whole violence is not meant to be literal, and so the others aren't either.

 

[Proletariat]

I worship the God-Emperor of man, all other faiths are heretical and shall be purged clean by the zeal of his righteous fury.

 

[TeaMMatE11]

Got it. It's basically you cannot understand it, but it's true. I'm sure that's a comforting thought if you can delude yourself into buying into that, but it's not for me, nor do I find discussions based on these kinds of approaches.


Or, God just works in mysterious ways! You just don't understand that he actually committed suicide. The Old Testament isn't taken to be literal afterall, right? The whole violence is not meant to be literal, and so the others aren't either.

There are some parts that HAVE to be taken literally, and others are not.


Jesus did NOT commit suicide.  He freed us from sin.  I feel like you're not understanding this.  


Basic outline of the Bible:


Good news: God created the world and everything was perfect.


Bad news: Humans fell short and rebelled against God (God sees sin as rebellion).


Good News: JESUS CHRIST, the Son of God, sacrificed himself to free us from sin.  Humans are nowhere near perfection, yet this is what God wants from us.  This was the olive branch connecting humans to God.


You choose.


Note that Christianity is the ONLY religion in which God comes down to us in human form.  The other religions are about working hard, following certain rules so you may achieve a divine state.  Christianity is one of forgiveness, one in which tells us that humans will never reach a divine-like state without the help of God.


Francis Chan, a famous speaker/preacher for Christianity put this example:


Jesus dying on the cross is like having his (Francis Chan's) 10 year old son walk into death row, take the death penalty so all the prisoners will be freed.  


It's not fair, and it's not right.  Again, I am repeating myself at this point in time.  It's not fair/right because it goes against the very thing we were taught: Justice.


"Let the person who has not sinned throw the first stone."


-Jesus' response after people caught a woman committing adultry and stoning was the death punishment.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

@TeaMMatE11


God never came down in human form. Jesus was not God...


He was the son of God. Jesus wasn't born Jesus... When he was baptized by John, the holy spirit entered him, and his "mission" began. Jesus was not god, in any way, shape, form, or metaphors. Period. 

 

[TeaMMatE11]

@TeaMMatE11


God never came down in human form. Jesus was not God...


He was the son of God. Jesus wasn't born Jesus... When he was baptized by John, the holy spirit entered him, and his "mission" began. Jesus was not god, in any way, shape, for, or metaphors, period. 

Yes He is.  


The Holy Trinity - The spirit, Son, and Holy spirit are one - meaning, they are of the same being.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Multiple times, even by God himself, Jesus is referred to as his SON.


People mistake the meaning of the Holy Trinity with no proof to support it. God is everything, every is god, but the trinity are 3 entities of heaven and power, not the same thing.


What you're suggesting is actually blasphemy to the original faith.


If Jesus was god, he wouldn't be described as still existing in heaven, as Jesus, the Son. He wouldn't still be our earthly and heavenly King. He'd be god. Think about what you're saying, read the bible again.


Jesus himself made the distinction. You don't have to believe me, Jesus and God have made it clear.


Actually TEA, it was such blasphemy for people back then, even for him to say he was God's son, that they killed him for it,


Christians and logic are like day & night, incapable of finding each other.

 

[TeaMMatE11]

Multiple times, even by God himself, Jesus is referred to as his SON.


People mistake the meaning of the Holy Trinity with no proof to support it. God is everything, every is god, but the trinity are 3 entities of heaven and power, not the same thing.


What you're suggesting is actually blasphemy to the original faith.


If Jesus was god, he wouldn't be described as still existing in heaven, as Jesus, the Son. He wouldn't still be our earthly and heavenly King. He'd be god. Think about what you're saying, read the bible again.


Jesus himself made the distinction. You don't have to believe me, Jesus and God have made it clear.

Then explain how he was perfect.

 

[Kazu]

Just gonna put my little tidbit into this.


The Trinity is a hard concept to grasp, and you can't really wrap your mind around it fully. I've gone around to accepting that there are some things that I, as a human and my limited mind, cannot understand completely even if I had the most exceptional teacher out there. But that's just me, and I understand that people really want to have logic and reason into things like these. It's frustrating. >.<


It helps a bit though if you put it this way (for me, anyways):


First, take a look at a triangle.


There are three sides that make it a triangle, but there's only one triangle.


It's kind of the same with God. There are three persons, yet one god. 


If you take away one side of the triangle, it doesn't make it a triangle anymore, yeah?


Aaaand that's all. 


*poofs off*

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

I made some edits to my post you should read.


Jesus was just a humble man, an honest man, but mortal. It wasn't until the Holy spirit entered him (but wait...... they are the same...) that he became the Jesus of Gospel.


The trinity isn't hard to understand, it's easy to misinterpret.


This is a watch. It has many working parts. Remove one, it no longer functions properly. They are 1 object collectively. But to suggest every part is actually one and the same, is wrong.

 

[TeaMMatE11]

I made some edits to my post you should read.


Jesus was just a humble man, an honest man, but mortal. It wasn't until the Holy spirit entered him (but wait...... they are the same...) that he became the Jesus of Gospel.


The trinity isn't hard to understand, it's easy to misinterpret.


This is a watch. It has many working parts. Remove one, it no longer functions properly. They are 1 object collectively. But to suggest every part is actually one and the same, is wrong.

Avoided my question.  Again, I will ask:


How was he perfect?  


But what I'm hearing from you is essentially "your belief is wrong."

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Do you really want to get real with me on this subject?


Okay.


This is a body of fiction, but I'll continue humoring you on the subject of scripture.


Jesus was "perfect" (much of his life was never recorded. Historically he was a Arabic carpenter, meaning he wasn't a skinny Caucasian man), because he was the son of God. Your question is irrelevant.


God never said I have come to in human form. He called Jesus his son. Jesus was conceived in a mortal womb, he didn't come down from heaven. Jesus himself never said I am God, the guy has NEVER been shy, why would he start then? Jesus always made a clear and absolute distinction between himself, and his father. He never talked about his will, or his way, but the will and way of God.


I'm not saying your belief is wrong, I'm saying the belief of those who first started interpreting the trinity, is wrong. It basically calls both Jesus and God liars, or at the very least, that they omitted facts. In which case, everything just changed, because first of all, everything in the scripture is now open to questioning, and secondly, these are the words of mortal men, not God.


If Jesus was God, he would have been able to work miracles prior to his baptism. If the trinity is one entity, the holy spirit would not have had to enter him during said baptism.


You're arguing with logic, and your own scripture.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Also your point about it being the only religion where god comes to earth in human form, is also wrong.


Greek mythology is polluted with god-mortal encounters and sexual activity. Yes, it was a religion too. I know Christians have tunnel vision with this stuff, but have some respect for other cultures.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Let me put it to everyone in basic terms.


If Jesus was in fact God, the entire purpose of his death is negated.


He didn't say, "I've taken human form to mortally die for your sins."


No, that's not it. You need better grasp on your religion.


God said, "I give to you, my only begotten son." As in, the only human child that I ever conceived myself (Adam and Even don't count, they wren't "Born" It's sad a non-beleiver has to explain this to Christians).


"I give my child to you, that his flesh, and his life, may atone for your sins, and provide salvation."


It was a sacrifice that both deeply pained God, and made him profoundly proud. This is why they are never compared as being the same in scripture, because they were not. Jesus was ONE. OF. US. God's child, the one thing he loved more than anything. Why would Satan go to Jesus and attempt to seduce him in the wilderness, if he himself was fucking God?


Pay attention to your own damn faith instead of letting priests tell you what's what. Putting anyone between yourself and Jesus (like, um, a priest) is strictly forbidden. But the modern Christian is so out of touch with their own faith they ignore stuff like this.

 

[Grey]

Little hostile there, Mofo.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

A little frustrated, far from hostile.

 

[TeaMMatE11]

How is Jesus' death negated if he's God?


I NEVER SAID SATAN CAME TO GOD.


Whatever.  If you're that stubborn, so be it.  This discussion has no productivity to it.  


I know what the Bible says.  The fact that you assumed I didn't know is astounding.  The fact that you continue to disrespect how I interpret the Bible is also not fun to deal with.

 

[Melpomene]

I think I'll go ahead and put my own two- bits here.


I am an agnostic, though I used to be a devout Christian. This was before I read the Bible. When I was around 13/14, I actually read the Bible (not all of it, but I am actually working on reading all of it now). When I read it, some things just didn't sit right with me (to be fair, a lot of that was in the old testament and quite a bit was from Leviticus). Now, I don't think anyone is stupid for believing in Christianity, I just don't agree with them, or any other religion for that matter.

 

[Sunbather]

There are some parts that HAVE to be taken literally, and others are not.


Jesus did NOT commit suicide.  He freed us from sin.  I feel like you're not understanding this.  


Basic outline of the Bible:


Good news: God created the world and everything was perfect.


Bad news: Humans fell short and rebelled against God (God sees sin as rebellion).


Good News: JESUS CHRIST, the Son of God, sacrificed himself to free us from sin.  Humans are nowhere near perfection, yet this is what God wants from us.  This was the olive branch connecting humans to God.


You choose.

Right, but who are you to decide which parts are to be taken literally and which ones aren't? Are you saying we can actually understand God afterall? I thought God worked in mysterious ways? That's great news, actually, that we can indeed determine what we should take literally and what not. So then by that logic my approach is just as valid and correct as yours, at the very least. You can't possibly dispute my claims about the bible if it IS possible to understand God, since you can't know what is right and what's not any more than I do. But then if it isn't possible, the bible means nothing to us, since we couldn't ever possibly make out what is truth and what is not.


Though I am curious, if we are God's creation, and God is all-powerful as well as all good, it sure seems weird that we are not perfect, and that this represents our connection to God. Why would a distinct difference connect us to God?