What if the Infernals WEREN'T made from Solar Shards?

[Captain Groove]

Hey, I understand that we have love for our favorite Exalts, but lets express no hate, OK? Anyway, I think the issue might be that Lunars as Infernals, while an interesting concept, doesn't make sense to me for them to be Infernals. You see, the Green Sun Princes aren't random or mutable, their weird. One of the cornerstones of the Infernal concept is that they are initially thematically bound to a patron Yozi as a template. Cecyline and She Who Lives In Her Name aren't dream like or chaotic, they represent intrinsic alien order. The Infernals embody the grandeur of the Yozis as Kings of Hell - the Solar Shard is the only thing worthy of containing their transcendent, alien glory. I'd venture that nearly all of the Yozis are antithetical to the Wyld. Lunar shards would be absolutely wrong, as such primal forces could never be contain. If anything could resist the corruption of Malfeas, it's certainly the handiwork of Luna and Autocthon. YCMV, and all IMO. At the very least, I'd choose an entirely different set of Reclamation Yozis for Lunars, including such types as Isidoros, Oramus, Szoreny, and Cytherea.


But, for a variant campaign, it's certainly an interesting idea. Someone needs to run this and report back the results.

 

[Thief of Words]

No. I can't abide by that suggestion. I hate Solars, and I will never apologize for that. They trammel too much potential for awesomeness in the setting. Defense of the status quo is in the wrong place if you're trying to bring it here. You're also wrong. Lunars are all about absorbing and embodying the nature of the things they encounter. That's the entire basis of their shapeshifting. All an Infernal Lunar notion would have to involve is them metaphysically absorbing and embodying Yozi natures. Lunar Exaltations were prone to being warped in a way that Solar ones (by their own thematics) weren't. It makes more sense that the sort of being capable of forming Creation from the raw wyld energies of Pure Chaos would be capable of warping the chaotic nature of the Lunar exaltation into something reflective of their own image. By thematics, the Lunars are the outsiders. Their Incarna is part something pulled from Oramus' beyond. They are the outsiders, the others, the strange, alien, bestial monsters in the corners of the world. The Sun's immutable nature should prevent the Solar-to-Infernal shift. But Lunar Exaltations reflecting the Yozis? Reflection is what the Moon does.

 

[Sunder]

Ok, seriously, you need to stop telling people they're just wrong. I mean, I happen to feel like Primoridals and by extension Yozis have a lot of thematic ties to the Wyld, it's their birthplace, after all, but this thread, in that I can see, has run its course. Baring someone putting up some homebrew stuff, it has done all it was meant to, or could. Some people (not all, some) went "wow, yeah, that'd be neat." What else do you want? Please relax a little.

 

[Thief of Words]

He was tangibly wrong. He spoke in an absolute that isn't the case, implying that only Solars could conceptually contain Primordial Essences. That idea is (to my thinking) wrong. Why are you treating it like I issued an ad hominem attack on him? I said he was wrong, not that he was a horrible person. That's what the wrong is in reference to. But fine. If I'm not wanted to remain in here, then so be it. I'll leave. As you were.

 

[KG-Motte]

[QUOTE="Thief of Words] He spoke in an absolute that isn't the case, implying that only Solars could conceptually contain Primordial Essences.

[/QUOTE]
He did no such thing Thief, look:

[QUOTE="Captain Groove] At the very least, I'd choose an entirely different set of Reclamation Yozis for Lunars, including such types as Isidoros, Oramus, Szoreny, and Cytherea.
But, for a variant campaign, it's certainly an interesting idea. Someone needs to run this and report back the results.

[/QUOTE]
You really aught to start reading all the way through posts before writing them off as "Wrong"(this isn't the fist time you contradict someone about something they clarified somewhere in their own post). As nobody, NOBODY can be entirely wrong, I'll say as one of my friends keeps saying (in fact had it tattooed on his chest) "Ars Poetica" which if I'm to believe what he constantly says it means: there is no wrong interpretation to poetry! Guess what : the same applies to all white-wolf products, they intentionally say things that contradict themselves across their books to give Storytellers (and players) some Wiggle room for interpretation... they've been doing that since the Old WoD (the good one xD ). So please, Thief, allow other people to have their interpretations, especially if you're asking for their opinion on something (seeing as you started this thread)...


Also Captain Groove: Sunder already covered that part that I quoted you for, in his post on the previous page, just before my first post on this thread. Also I don't know if you read my other previous posts, but if you haven't please do so, I'd like to think my rants serve a greater purpose than filling space! (they cover several counterpoints to yours and I'm too lazy to write them up again) xD

 

[Myllinnia]

I'd have a big long rant here, but that's pointless. The question was a big What If? There is no right or wrongs to What Ifs. There shouldn't be any way. That's the fun of What Ifs, its fun to figure different and fun ways to do things in a certain universe. (I have a big fun what if and story premise dealing with Interactions with our Universe and Creation's. Yes for me... separate Universes. Moving on though.)


I personally hate the whole Exaltation alteration aspect. Wyld, Yozi, Neverborn, nope, I don't like it. But it does make for a fun story regardless. Corrupting the strongest essence battery, was the intent. Not the second most versatile, or the sneaky fated one, but the strongest unconquered made ones. Corrupting that is a point of pride to those butt hurt Yozi. They broke the best exaltations, the rest would be easy peasy once they find away to get those too. xD


Regardless, its cool to have exciting and fun ideas on different ways to make Infernals. Very cool, and a lot of cool ideas have been stated in this thread. There is no wrong way. But I do see the reason why they did go with the Solar ones.


And speaking of... I am very curious of the Infernals MKII in 3e, as well as the Proto Infernals. Those implications were that they were not based on any known Exaltation in play.

 

[KG-Motte]

I have to agree with everything you said in your last post except one point in the second paragraph

They broke the best exaltations, the rest would be easy peasy once they find away to get those too.

As I've mentioned before (earlier in this very thread), I don't believe that Solars are truly more powerful than the other Exaltation types, they were all made from the same thing after all (that and the thing about Luna Smiling as she fooled the Unconquered Sun into thinking she'd made her exalted weaker than his with the Solar Bond Lunar core book p.20). I'll admit that Solars have a few good advantages that as a whole made them more useful against the primordials: Greater potential for Essence mote Reserves, Greater ability to lead than any other, and a knack for inventing absurdly powerful toys, a talent for holy charms and of course sorcery... All these traits Greatly helped them get their Reputation as the most powerful. BUT take away his army, his toys and don't give him time to cast solar level spells... the solar is now as a whole somewhat weaker than the other celestial exalts. Sidereals have Astrology and Badass SMA that can beat down solars in both shaping societies and plain old Brawling respectively, and the usurpation proved that they could be the stronger ones 100 + DB Vs. 300-600 and they won, mostly through guile but that counts. Lunars on the other hand are better hunters, Seducers, Illusionists and warriors (at least so long as they stay out of Mass combat) their Ox-body Technique is arguably better than the solar's (More Health boxes given anyway, and they can easily ignore the wound penalties) soaking charms that WAY outshine solars (they can go upwards of 40 Soak at Essence 3 NAKED, not even tattoo armor), and most importantly Regeneration, meaning one-shoting them is impossible unless you do it with the Five Metal Shrike's godspear (again toys) and if you don't he'll eventually get better and wear you down, and I'm not even talking about the Overpowered Wyld space-time Altering charms that allow you to stop or reverse (Self only but still) time or be at 8 places at once for an instant! (imagine a Lunar with those charms and a Lunar Aspect Hearthstone that allows him to use Wyld Charms anywhere, dunno what lv that'd be but it's conceptually sound) Anyway, my point is the celestial exalts were made for different purposes each with their own thing to excel at but as a whole relatively equal in potential even with the Limitations the Unconquered Sun asked the Incarnae to put on they Children. The Mass War with two clear sides and the relative peace of the High First age were perfect to emphasize the advantages of the Solars making them "the Greatest of the exalted" (a really good PR trick if you ask me). But in the second age the Five-Score Fellowship and the Stewards make the Lawgivers look relatively incompetent (at least for now, I'll admit)...


Anyway that's enough ranting for now, sorry for making it so long... Then again I didn't set myself that title for nothing (it's a warning, he he he)... Of course, all this is just one Hermit Geek's* opinion!


*(complete with Blanket "shell" home, Maybe i aught to change my Avatar Image for a hermit crab? Naww too lazy!... xD )

 

[Viatos]

[QUOTE="KG-Motte]BUT take away his army, his toys and don't give him time to cast solar level spells... the solar is now as a whole somewhat weaker than the other celestial exalts.

[/QUOTE]
This isn't really true, because Solar Charms are still better than everyone else's Charms.


A Solar who throws up Infinite (Melee) Mastery and has Golden Destruction Cut doesn't really care about Lunar soak, for instance. Solar Melee outclasses what a combat-specced Lunar can get up to. Not by a huge amount, but enough that a Dawn will win against an equivalent-XP Full Moon or Chosen of Endings every time. Similarly, Solar Social is the best at straight-up rewriting people to do what you tell them. Similarly, Solar Crafts...other splats can do things they can't do at all, like turn into rhinos, but if it falls without the category of an Ability, Solars win.

 

[KG-Motte]

There are some pretty good things that Aolars CAN do, I'm not saying they are weak by any means, BUT Lunars can get Infinite (melee) Mastery, it's called Instinctive (Dexterity) Unity, difference is they can use it not only to attack and Parry with Melee weapons but also to dodge, move faster, steal, sneak, craft, Throw, Archery, Martial Arts, Balance, and to top it off they can combo the charms it enhances (the excellencies) with ANY other charm no matter which attribute it's tied to, Like say Strength or Wits... On top of that at Essence 5 a Solar can get a maximum of 23 dice on any roll (Excluding the use of Equipment) A lunar on the other hand can go up to 25 (29 for physical actions) Thanks to their 3 Fury Charms, Relentless Lunar Fury, Irresistible Silver Spirit, and Inevitable Genius insight (and they add a Free Success on top so it's even more than 25-29), Impossible (Attribute) Improvement which allows them to increase their natural maximum in the relevant attribute (and increasing how much essence they can pump into it in the precess), and finally for physical Stats only: Deadly Beastman Transformation's enhanced attributes count as your natural attributes to count maximum Dice pools, which if you have Devastating Ogre Enhancement gives you an other +4 final count... so to recap Solar: (Attribute+Ability) X2 + Specialty, Lunar: (Enhanced Attribute X2) +Ability + Essence + Specialty, the lunar looks down to the tiny Solar and laughs at it's puny attempts to hit him or dodge him (unless he uses Perfect defenses if he has then which are pretty costly)... and all that is excluding useful Mutations, Gifts and the ability of all Lunars can get to learn Fair folk Charms (such as one that allows you to put 2 extra dots in any specialty for a total of 5) Through Hungry Dream Cloak and it's enhancement Shifting Wyld Tides, which unlike the Eclipse Anima has a built in way of earning your own Graces which serve as Prerequisites to their charms. also in my previous post I said 40+ Soak naked that means no artifact armor or Moonsilver Tattoo Artifact Armor which counts as natural soak, with those I can kick it up to 60+ Also Wound-Mastering Body Evolution might add even more depending on the version you use, which I had not counted in that previous soak calculation, (pre or post Errata) and if I take the Pre-errata version of Invulnerable Moonsilver Carapace I can Boost it up an other 15 with automatic Zero Minimum damage. Can you hit for over 75 Raw Damage Against an opponent who has an average DV of 15 or more? Didn't think so. ... Solars lead, and Lunars are the weapon that beats down those that oppose them and keep them safe. All this is the Reason why Lunars were the Solars BODYGUARDS (the point of a bodyguard is that he's tougher and meaner than you are)... I did my research before starting a mad rant explaining why Lunars are better at single combat, they get blown out of the water when compared to War and Mass Combat Charms of Solars, but in single combat Lunars are unbeatable (in potential) unless confronted by Sidereal Martial artist and even then: "She Messed with Lilith, She's dead, that's how that works" it's a freaking Sidereal Saying! (though in that case she wasn't quite dead, but the point stands)


I'm usually Storyteller in my local (face to face) games so I need to know this stuff, and when i explained all this (using canon mechanics here no House rules) to my resident Munchkin , who favors Solars because he thought they were the strongest in every respect (and now put too much effort into learning how to use em to change, that and he doesn't like playing "animals"), his facial expression changed in the sudden realization that were I ever to design A Lunar who's sole purpose was to be a monster of destruction there is nothing he, or even his entire Circle, could do to stop it (and that's assuming equal BPs and exp and such as just ONE of the characters)


Anyway I'm getting off the main topic and I'll have to stop this... Though I did give my Full opinion on the Main topic higher up in the thread... I'm think I'm starting to enjoy this ranting... Should I get myself checked?

 

[Thief of Words]

[QUOTE="KG-Motte]He did no such thing Thief, look:
You really aught to start reading all the way through posts before writing them off as "Wrong"(this isn't the fist time you contradict someone about something they clarified somewhere in their own post). As nobody, NOBODY can be entirely wrong, I'll say as one of my friends keeps saying (in fact had it tattooed on his chest) "Ars Poetica" which if I'm to believe what he constantly says it means: there is no wrong interpretation to poetry! Guess what : the same applies to all white-wolf products, they intentionally say things that contradict themselves across their books to give Storytellers (and players) some Wiggle room for interpretation... they've been doing that since the Old WoD (the good one xD ). So please, Thief, allow other people to have their interpretations, especially if you're asking for their opinion on something (seeing as you started this thread)...


Also Captain Groove: Sunder already covered that part that I quoted you for, in his post on the previous page, just before my first post on this thread. Also I don't know if you read my other previous posts, but if you haven't please do so, I'd like to think my rants serve a greater purpose than filling space! (they cover several counterpoints to yours and I'm too lazy to write them up again) xD

[/QUOTE]
You're also wrong there. And mind, I'm not doing this to be rude. You were demonstrably wrong in your assumption I didn't read his whole post. I did. And he did make a statement equivocal to what I called wrong. To quote it: "the Solar Shard is the only thing worthy of containing their transcendent, alien glory."


So before you jump the gun and say I can't say something's wrong, actually take the time to learn what I was saying, its scope, and how narrow or broad a statement it was in the first place. That aside, your friend is mistaken. There is such a thing as a wrong interpretation of poetry, just as with every other literary art. If someone were to interpret the hero's death in Beowulf along Marxist lines, then they are participating in a flawed (a wrong) interpretation. And it's demonstrably wrong, since Marxist theory is long predated by the poem in question. I am not discounting that they might make points that individually are valid, though I have trouble imagining such myself, but nonetheless they are proceeding to undertake an interpretation that is based upon a flawed, incorrect premise if it assumes Marxist motives behind so obviously non-Marxist a poem. Their interpretation might be interesting or even compelling, but that does not change that it is incorrect. And perhaps I should've been using that terminology. Would it have offended you less if I said it was incorrect or that the statement was untrue?

 

[Thief of Words]

I'd have a big long rant here, but that's pointless. The question was a big What If? There is no right or wrongs to What Ifs. There shouldn't be any way. That's the fun of What Ifs, its fun to figure different and fun ways to do things in a certain universe. (I have a big fun what if and story premise dealing with Interactions with our Universe and Creation's. Yes for me... separate Universes. Moving on though.)
I personally hate the whole Exaltation alteration aspect. Wyld, Yozi, Neverborn, nope, I don't like it. But it does make for a fun story regardless. Corrupting the strongest essence battery, was the intent. Not the second most versatile, or the sneaky fated one, but the strongest unconquered made ones. Corrupting that is a point of pride to those butt hurt Yozi. They broke the best exaltations, the rest would be easy peasy once they find away to get those too. xD


Regardless, its cool to have exciting and fun ideas on different ways to make Infernals. Very cool, and a lot of cool ideas have been stated in this thread. There is no wrong way. But I do see the reason why they did go with the Solar ones.


And speaking of... I am very curious of the Infernals MKII in 3e, as well as the Proto Infernals. Those implications were that they were not based on any known Exaltation in play.

There is a wrong response to a directed question, Myllinnia. The responses focused on the why of how things are when asked to discuss how might they have been different are rather like answering a test question asking, "How might General X have prosecuted campaign Y differently?" by answering, "He didn't. He prosecuted it as he did." That response might feasibly have merit, but it is still the wrong answer to that question, because it doesn't answer the question asked. It is wrong because it is off-topic, and thus it's a wrong answer.

 

[KG-Motte]

Heh, Thief you'll be happy to read just above your last post... I ranted on about how Solars are NOT the absolute "bestest type of exalt" using mechanical terms very long very precise, basically saying Evolution (Lunars) Beats Perfection (Solars)... Just posed it but took me while to write so it seems to be counting as though I'd said it a lot earlier than I did... Also I assumed you occasionally only read partial posts because some times you answer only one point among many within a post and don't explain yourself, also I'd be tempted to do the same occasionally but I'm too suborn for that, sorry for that assumption, this is the problem with text based communication...

 

[Thief of Words]

I address particular points because they're the points I feel like discussing, or because they're the ones that I feel merit response. Or because they're the ones I have a response to.


And I read your post. It doesn't counter my points nearly so well as you feel it does. I think you misunderstood (in part) what I meant by trammeling potential. I'm not even solely talking crunch here. The status of Solars in the fluff bothers me a hell of a lot more than their "I win button" mechanics. And they are still I win button mechanics. A Solar of a given quantity of xp will still be able to outdo a comparably-aimed lunar, especially if you're considering a field that isn't one-to-one combat. Which Lunars have two whole Castes intended to focus upon.


Beyond that, addressing your Lunar superiority argument, I'd really have to see what you're drawing this argument from, crunch-wise. But as I said before, this isn't the place to have that discussion. If you'd like to pm me, though, I'd be happy to see support (i.e. proof) for your argument. And from a fluff standpoint, the Lunars really haven't outdone the Solars, barring exceptional individuals.

 

[Viatos]

Solars > Lunars is relevant because we're kinda talking about that, as far as what's worth Infernalizing.

[QUOTE="KG-Motte]Can you hit for over 75 Raw Damage Against an opponent who has an average DV of 15 or more?

[/QUOTE]
Yes.

were I ever to design A Lunar who's sole purpose was to be a monster of destruction there is nothing he, or even his entire Circle, could do to stop it (and that's assuming equal BPs and exp and such as just ONE of the characters)

I don't mean to be difficult, but a single Dawn of equivalent XP can and will kill the Lunar every time. Better Overdrives, better reflexive attack stocking Charms, better defenses, better attacks. Lunars can be big and scary, but they're specifically designed to be incapable of reaching Solar heights. I'm not really a fan of the inequality but it's hard-coded into the game at every level. Lunars have less motes and less efficient Charms to use their motes for. Your player was right; Solars are the strongest, and he shouldn't fear your Lunar.


For an easy example, your math is based around sinking a ton of XP just to get your dicecap higher. What happens when a Solar spends that same XP on actual combat Charms? I'm not saying you can't have a wonderful time playing a Lunar, but they're not going to exceed Solars in any category except for shapeshifting, because Solars can't shapeshift.

 

[Sunder]

You could establish some rules (how much XP to use, mainly) and actually draw up characters and beat each other up. No need to leave it to words when we have numbers.

 

[Thief of Words]

Solars > Lunars is relevant because we're kinda talking about that, as far as what's worth Infernalizing.
Yes.


I don't mean to be difficult, but a single Dawn of equivalent XP can and will kill the Lunar every time. Better Overdrives, better reflexive attack stocking Charms, better defenses, better attacks. Lunars can be big and scary, but they're specifically designed to be incapable of reaching Solar heights. I'm not really a fan of the inequality but it's hard-coded into the game at every level. Lunars have less motes and less efficient Charms to use their motes for. Your player was right; Solars are the strongest, and he shouldn't fear your Lunar.


For an easy example, your math is based around sinking a ton of XP just to get your dicecap higher. What happens when a Solar spends that same XP on actual combat Charms? I'm not saying you can't have a wonderful time playing a Lunar, but they're not going to exceed Solars in any category except for shapeshifting, because Solars can't shapeshift.

This might sound hypocritical coming from me, but there in fact are things a Lunar can do to beat out a Solar. With the de-emphasis 2.5 put on Perfects (specifically, you can no longer afford to spam them). Certain Lunar archetypes actually gained a degree of traction versus Solars. But even then, it ends up being a matter of rock-paper-scissors. Certain Lunar builds easily beat certain Solar builds. The reverse also holds true. Lunars actually have MORE mote-neutral or moteless combat options than Solars do on average, due to the sheer advantage of their shapeshifting. A lot of Lunar builds can simply Gift their scenelongs and then never have to spend another mote in the fight unless defending against Invincible Sword Princess or the like.


No, you want to talk where Solars are unfairly stacked, then bring up Social charms. Lunar social fu has all but nothing on Solar social stuff.

 

[KG-Motte]

I'll admit that one of the biggest Flaws to Lunar charms is their cost as much in exp as in motes, on the other hand most of them can do so much more...

You could establish some rules (how much XP to use, mainly) and actually draw up characters and beat each other up. No need to leave it to words when we have numbers.

I wouldn't mind this solution, though I'd need EXACT limitations as to what I'm allowed to do, an Arbiter would be nice too, also we'd probably have to do this elsewhere we are already not quite on topic anymore...


Also small detail that I just have to spill (can't help it) did you know an essence 4 Lunar can Legitimately do up to 56 Attacks in a single tick with any weapon? it's costly to do but it's possible

 

[Thief of Words]

[QUOTE="KG-Motte]I'll admit that one of the biggest Flaws to Lunar charms is their cost as much in exp as in motes, on the other hand most of them can do so much more...
I wouldn't mind this solution, though I'd need EXACT limitations as to what I'm allowed to do, an Arbiter would be nice too, also we'd probably have to do this elsewhere we are already not quite on topic anymore...


Also small detail that I just have to spill (can't help it) did you know an essence 4 Lunar can Legitimately do up to 56 Attacks in a single tick with any weapon? it's costly to do but it's possible

[/QUOTE] Wyld charms involved?

 

[KG-Motte]

Sunder's taking care of arbitrating, we'll see how it goes! Either I'll be proven right, either I'll learn something new: Win-Win

 

[jel]

i guess i'll try to take a stab at this.


i think that first and foremost that the yozi would go after solar shards. honestly not all that relevant. i don't like solars really but hey, infernals and abyssals are cool.


next i think that they would go after dragon bloods.


as for why i think so, it is mostly because they are going to need an army. yeah i'm sure that the ebon dragon, the embodiment of betrayal, has a plan in the form of marrying the scarlet empress. however who would be foolish enough to trust him? a back up plan that would create a superior minion would be a good thing to have.


and yeah i think that they would be a least celestial level. which would make balancing it a pain but i'll ignore that for now. i think that the costs for out of aspect charms would increase, just because they are using solar charms, which they are not necessarily geared towards. i would also think that their anima would cause them harm when it first goes up. these are just a few draw back that i think would appear, due to the corruption of their essence.


i think that some bright sidereal akuma would come up with the idea to create yozi dragon martial arts, in order to further empower them, and reduce the cost of their out of aspect charms.


i think that in the social aspects they would be grouped based on which "mother" or as it could be said "that poor thing that they are descended from." yeah they equivalents of lillun of which their would be multiples. i also think that blood purity would not be a huge concern. they would also have quotas of children that they need to produce per month. one of their rights, as they are definitely not going to be peers, would be unlimited access to neomah. so you know they could cut off a piece of themselves and create a new child. also if choosing patrons, i would choose kimbery, metagoss, qaf, cynthera, and hegra, just because i have not seen much done with them, except kimbery but she is there to provide a link to the architects.


next on the list, would be lunars. the synergy of their shapeshifting and shintais is just too tempting to pass up. i would likely give them the knack to transform into demons as the default and create a knack to create creation born creatures. i would also create a knack that allows them to change into their shintais as a form, not a charm. so no shintais being a form-type charm. finally i would give them a knack that allows them to add a mutation from their shintais to their war form. oh and just as an aside i think that the last two knacks would be accessible by lunar akuma.


finally on the list of exalts is sidereals. yeah i have no idea what these guys would do but i think that they would keep access to sidereal martial arts at least though new ones they created would likely be based off of the yozi rather than off of fate. also i think they would keep a suitably twisted form of astrology. mostly because that along with martial arts this is their hat.

 

[Tepet Doneno]

My apologies if casting Necromancy on this thread is taken badly, but I was recently looking at this thread and got interested in the 'Other Infernals' discussion. I love Infernals, they're my favorite thing to play. If not for the sheer glory that the endgame of the Devil-Tiger promises, then for the fact that you don't have to play an angsty Mary-Sue (comes in either platinum blond or gothic black). And before anyone harangues DT, you don't get any of the good bits (Such as Primordial-Level immortality) until you hit Essence 10, which a good story teller will delay you from getting for as long as possible.


But I digress. If I may cast in my two cents on the actual 'Other Infernals' project, it is wholly possible that the last five years since the Jade Prison was cracked open was being used as a trial run for the Reclamation project. The Yozi and Neverborn could have been using what they saw as the most convenient and most difficult-to-work-with exaltations in order to create their own weapons. This would have had the dual purpose of stroking their egos at turning their most iconic* slayers into tools to break their prison, and at the same time creating the most difficult conditions for their experiment to function under.


The Unconquered Sun is supposed to be as immutable as is conceivably -mayhap inconceivably- possible, and his little spotlight-hoarders are intended to embody a blend of that and humanity's best traits. Once the Yozi/Neverborn coalition were sure that they could do it to something that was supposed to be Immutable, then the Reclamation could conceivably looked at one another and said "Hey, let's make an Infernal Exalted Host.". Hell, the Althing would practically demand it.


Lunar mates still resonate with their Infernal and Abyssal partners, and having a loving(ish) partner-in-crime would go a long way to keeping the Green Sun Princes on the side of Hell (or the Black Sun Princes on the side of Oblivion). I'm actually a bit curious as to why no Deathlord has tried to stick a Lunar in a Monstrance, especially since the Dowager is implied to be the ghost of a Lunar. Some could slip out no doubt (Damn snake totems...) but a few of the more unlucky young-bloods could still conceivably be Turned. Infernal Lunars could be an extension of Green Sun Tattoos - since the tattoos make the caste at this point, it wouldn't be inconceivable that the Yozi would refine their original process and use the GSTs as a kind of conduit to form 'Blood Moon Princes/Princesses'. I feel sorry for Lillun at this point, or whatever poor daughter of the Empress gets chosen to house the Stewards of Hell. Their Patrons for the three castes could be the Silver Forrest, Oramus, and Elloge, all of which mimic and/or transcend. Totem-wise? Blood Moon Princesses get Demons, Void Stalkers get ghostly, skeletal or zombified beasts. We know the Lunars can learn to do either already, so it's just a matter of changing what the default is.


Corroded Dragon foot soldiers would, if nothing else, provide an unexpected and mildly covert army that could enter the Realm and start wreaking havoc. They'd have to still look fairly normal, but no matter what a Vitrol Dragonblooded would be a major nose-thumbing at Gaia. That concept has been covered in another thread**, and I especially like the idea of a brood mother that the author put forward. The Patrons and the mechanics might need some work, but if we're just telling a story the concept is fascinating (if not a bit disturbing). Abyssal DBs could just emulate the dying forms of the elements (Anyone here ever have a look at Abyssal Genasi from DnD 4e? Horrible edition, but the concepts of Acid, Cinder, Plague and Void as opposites to the traditional elements could fit well here. Just need the Fifth Element. He he. ...I'm sorry.). Actually making them is a different task to tackle, but the basic concept is there.


Sidereal pose a whole other kind of problem. Being fundamentally a part of fate makes this exaltation, and removing them from it just weirds things out. You could make them a kind of Anti-Fate, sort of the counter to a concept the Black Boar hated. And would you look at that! They already have Patron. The Black Vizirs of Hell could be similar to how Abyssals are to Solars; where the original builds themselves up, the twisted form hinders their enemies. They'd still probably have to lose their Sidreal Martial Arts (except possibly Obsidian Shards... because an unwitting tribute to the Shadow of All Things should be put to good use in destroying its creators), but could have Yozi-Concept-Theme based Martial Arts to replace them. Let the GSPs have Infernal Monster Style, Black Vizirs get ISIDROS STYLE! Or Eddie Style, for those who miss the Charcoal March. I won't go into Undead Sidereals, since 3e seems to be covering them already.


Alchemicals I won't even bother trying to work with, beyond postulating that some Gremlin syndrome could come from Eddie trying just what you've all been talking about. He did meet the Minister of Hate, so he could have had brief contact with the Alchemicals. The Yozi not knowing about the Alchemical Host kinda disproves that though, so I digress. Undead Alchemicals don't really seem possible, since their souls are housed in gems and are Exalted by birth. And, you know, they aren't Necrons.


So, if we use Jel's DB Patrons, and assume that no Yozi doubles up on which exaltations they as individuals sponsor, then we could say that:

• Solars could be sponsored by:
  Malfeas
  
• SWLIHN
  
• Adjoran
  
• Ceceryne
  
• The Ebon Dragon
  

[*]Lunars could be sponsored by:

• Oramus
  
• Szorney
  
• Elloge (Although she has thematic issues)
  

[*]Sidereals could be sponsored by:

• Isidros. BREAK FATE! BREAK IT! SMASH THAT MEDDLESOME LOOM!
  

[*]Dragon Blooded could be sponsored by:

• Hegra (For Air) - Any 40k fans think these guys should yell "PRAISE SLAANESH!"?
  
• Kimbery (For Water)
  
• Cytheria (For Fire)
  
• Qaf (For Earth)
  
• Metagaos (For Wood)
  
• Go Planet!
  

That just leaves Sacherval as the odd man out for the cannon listed Yozi. But really, no one wants him awake, or even interacting with the world. Hell, the Yozi will mutilate their own bodies to prevent his demesnes from forming. Additionally, Elloge isn't the most obvious choice for a Lunar patron. My argument would be that since she embodies language, the suave Stewards would benefit from her communicative abilities. Kimbery might have been a better choice, but I didn't want to postulate any Yozi with direct patronage over more than one Exaltation, just because it seems like something that the others would see as monopolization. And theres no way in Wyld that the Yozi would trust each other that far. Grant access to their Charm sets? Sure, it's already happened. Who knows, someone might get really innovative. But give Eddie patronage over both Fiends and Black Viziers? Wyld no, the other four original Reclaimers wouldn't even give him all the Fiends!


Thank you for listening to my rant (those that do). These are all just opinions, so I am in no way claiming that anyone posting before or after me is incorrect. I'm just stating my interpretation of the setting. Hope it helps, or at least appeals to people!


* (iconic, not necessarily their most effective. Because no one can deny that the Lunars, Sidreals, and endless waves of Dragonblooded didn't contribute in a very big way.)


** http://www.rpdom.com/resources/corroded-dragons.771/

 

[Shining Lotus Sage]

Kimbery for Lunars, Hegra and her rains for Water, Elloge for the Linguistics-favoring Air.

 

[Tepet Doneno]

[QUOTE="Shining Lotus Sage]Kimbery for Lunars, Hegra and her rains for Water, Elloge for the Linguistics-favoring Air.

[/QUOTE]
You're right. That would make more sense.