What if the Infernals WEREN'T made from Solar Shards?

I think thematically it makes sense that they stole and twisted Solar shards with them being too consumed by bitterness and vengeance to create anymore, and I LOVE Infernal charms with the furious burning passion of a million supernovas, but I do agree that there are way too many Solaroids. Solars/Abyssals sure, and sure Infernals make -sense- as Solaroids, but... I dunno. Coulda played up the demon aspect a bit more or something.
 
Or maybe Infernalize (not the same as Akuma) the other Celestials as well. Having a twisted demonic counterpart to each.
 
I think it is good as it is right now. This is just my opinion but I am playing exalted because it is about highly ego-ed super human beings. Sure it would be written in a way to make sense why lunars were infernals but same could be used for abyssals as well. From lore and fluff if I was a yozi I would prefer to have a solar essence to torment while shaping it to my own tool rather than lunars or sidereals because in the end it was solars who made made killing blows on primordials who turned to neverborns or enslaven those survived as yozi's. Also not to forget that wyld and primordial does not cope well with each other otherwise we should see something like akuma-rakshasa in that matter lunars akes even less sense than other exalted types.
 
Except that Primordial essences have been imposing their will on Wyld essences since before Time began. It's their nature to do so. Without the ability to do just that, Creation would never have happened.


It's in Solar nature to be unable to be changed without its own consent. The Abyssals weren't actually an inherent alteration of the Solar shards, just a nudge of manipulation taking advantage of a potential that had always inherently existed in the Solar shards (see the Black Mirror).
 
[QUOTE="Thief of Words]Except that Primordial essences have been imposing their will on Wyld essences since before Time began. It's their nature to do so. Without the ability to do just that, Creation would never have happened.
It's in Solar nature to be unable to be changed without its own consent. The Abyssals weren't actually an inherent alteration of the Solar shards, just a nudge of manipulation taking advantage of a potential that had always inherently existed in the Solar shards (see the Black Mirror).

[/QUOTE]
Ok first like many people suggested there is a method to catch solar essence there is no confirmation that it also works on lunar essence actually siderelas had chances to capture lunar essences as well when they invaded Lytek's office and trapping essences into jade prison there were some lunars died on that day too but no lunar essence were trapped in. Second Yozi's don't have same power as they were once primordials and it was authotocton (I will never get this name right don't I) who created exalted essence and tried to hide it from others as much as possible.


What you are suggesting doesn't even make sense in the first stage of creation of infernals namely catching essences of lunars because it yozi's or their agents cannot enter into creation on their own will or roam around freely for a long time. Solar essences were captured by deadlords and they were in same place making it easy to capture them. How do you suggest they would capture 50 lunar essence in the vast creation and vaster borderlands? It would take hundreds if not thousands of years since you need to find a lunar kill it than capture essence before it escapes.


On second stage it is debatable that Yozi's have enough power to change something that was wyld touched it took them a long time to creates creation from wyld it didn't happen overnight and it required combined effort of all primordials with their full bodies and powers and like pointed out it is also debatable that they have any means to keep these essences in one place for long to experiment and torture unlike solar essences.
 
Honestly, the Jade Prison probably could only be made to resonate with one type of Shard at a time. The Sidereals probably looked at each Charmset and said "Eh, we'll have the Lunars beat next week anyways, so let's get the Solars out of the way."


In all seriousness though, the Prison likely couldn't contain both at once and the Solars were the ones that were leading the charge into madness. The Lunars, pre-Wyld taint, were probably thought of as less difficult to control. Or there could have been plans for a second Jade Prison for the Lunars in the works but them retreating to the Wyld nixed that idea because they couldn't get enough Lunars killed at once.


Recall that a large part of the reason the Jade Prison worked so well was because almost all the Solars died at once. They couldn't keep Lytek down forever, so they only had a single moment in time.


Hmm, interesting idea of throwing a couple dozen Lunar Shards in the prison as well. Then you can have a couple of random Lunar Abyssals and Infernal ones.
 
[QUOTE="Thief of Words]Except that Primordial essences have been imposing their will on Wyld essences since before Time began. It's their nature to do so. Without the ability to do just that, Creation would never have happened.
It's in Solar nature to be unable to be changed without its own consent. The Abyssals weren't actually an inherent alteration of the Solar shards, just a nudge of manipulation taking advantage of a potential that had always inherently existed in the Solar shards (see the Black Mirror).

[/QUOTE]
It's in the nature of the Solar Exalted to be unchangeable. The nature the shard represents changes with every new incarnation. And in fact, it does this moreso than every other Exalt type, because it enhances the abilities already found in the individual.


Lunar Exaltations grant a similar thematic spread...Solar Exaltations are broader in terms of what they actually do. Sort of.


Actually, that was a pretty bad explanation, but...
 
Greenstalker said:
On second stage it is debatable that Yozi's have enough power to change something that was wyld touched it took them a long time to creates creation from wyld it didn't happen overnight and it required combined effort of all primordials with their full bodies and powers and like pointed out it is also debatable that they have any means to keep these essences in one place for long to experiment and torture unlike solar essences.
Click to expand...
She Who Lives In Her Name's Charmset includes a Charm that duplicates Wyld-shaping technique, actually...
 
Mmm Infernal/Abyssal Lunars... I have a slight urge to write a scene where they were moving the shards into the Prison. *imagines little chained golden essences being marched in. j/k :P * Not only Solars, but Lunars and some pesky really will be trouble later down the road Sidereal ones too. Granted the last doesn't make much sense for the over worked under appreciated office workers, but I like the idea all the same. xD
 
Myllinnia said:
Mmm Infernal/Abyssal Lunars... I have a slight urge to write a scene where they were moving the shards into the Prison. *imagines little chained golden essences being marched in. j/k :P * Not only Solars, but Lunars and some pesky really will be trouble later down the road Sidereal ones too. Granted the last doesn't make much sense for the over worked under appreciated office workers, but I like the idea all the same. xD
Click to expand...
All the Gold Faction ones that were killed. Then Chejop looks at the last remaining few. "Do you want to try me now?"
 
Thread necromancy.


Previous discussion got carried away with arguing over the validity and importance of Solars and the mechanics of the Jade Prison, which are all good things to talk about, but the seed concept wasn't those things. Instead, considering what would be different if the Ebon Dragon or another Yozi has conceived of Infernals as a development of Lunar Exalted, rather than Solar ones. Not because of anything to do with Solars, but just because Lunars, for being so malleable and adaptable, don't get much attention. Consider it this way?


While all the Incarna were created by the Primodials, Luna has what appears to be the strongest connection to that origin. The Unconquered Sun, by his own nature in many ways, is separate from the Primordials, though there are obvious thematic ties, and his ability to relinquish his virtue is a clear mark left by the Ebon Dragon. Meanwhile, in canon (or at least semi-canon? Ink Monkeys stuff falls where?) Luna can enter and leave Oramus's Without, meaning she isn't just the result of Primordial ingenuity, she regularly interacts with a Yozi's purview. The two of them are the only beings capable of entering and leaving it, so that she is able to at all is significant.


On top of that, her chosen have been warped by the Wyld in a way which could be best described as unwound, I think. They are not different, so much as more accepting of change, without tattoos. While Solars are the strongest Exalted, and trusted to rule Creation, Lunars are it's stewards, who keep it safe.


It's reasonable to think that, rather than manipulating Solars, who the world is already turned against, the Yozi would attempt to convert Lunars into their pawns. It's less risky if something goes awry, and at the same time, would lead to a broadening of their own aspects, as the Red Moon Exalted sought ways to adapt and prepare for every situation. If nothing else, there could be hope that such a growth and change in nature would free them from their bindings, by virtue of being beings other than those that were bound!


That aside, it would also facilitate using Oramus or Cytherea, both of whom are currently incredibly fascinating, and incredibly frustrating. One or both of them could have had the idea, rather than the Ebon Dragon, of creating Infernals. Or, after seeing the result of his experiments, decided to pull the Lunar Infernals from the Without. Perhaps in this version, the allied Yozi are Oramus, Cytherea, and Kimbery, for the three castes of Lunar. Or, influenced by Infernal Essence, they regain their full suite of 5, including Szoreny and Isidoros, filling the roles otherwise taken by She Who Lives in Her Name, The Ebon Dragon, Cecelyne, Adorjan, and Malfeas respectively.


Regardless of how they were made, there is much in Malfeas that would fit neatly into their paradigm. Hellstriders are living creatures, at their core, advanced Knacks could mutate the Lunar into such a form. Kimbery's themes of mutation and ancient beasts in the ocean feed in fairly well, and Lunars are already well-suited to understand and emulate living landscapes and behemoths. Their Charms are already structured in a more broad, encompassing way, which would make the adaptation to Yozi trees fairly streamlined. They would theoretically be as capable as the Solar Infernals anyway, because the power of an Exalt type is it's Charms. Granted, the different costs would lead to a different growth rate, but in theory, they would be roughly equal. The Lunars would balance out the difference with their unique Knacks.
 
I have to agree on the fact that the setting seems to be very Solar-centric, like Thief of Words says , but in my opinion that's just because of two of the 3(or so) things solars really do excel at above all else: PR! I mean they can spin a story to make themselves sound 10k times better than they really were, that and the fact that they are without a doubt the best leaders (and lets face it it's the guy giving the orders that gets the credit not his soldiers, or his Lunar leading the charge with 8 spear-like objects 10 times his size sticking out his chest and still kicking ass) that makes that all the stories say that "Solars = better than all"... But honestly if they were so supreme, why did they need Bodyguards? That said all the great feats the solars supposedly did really they were a team effort but their partners just didn't have the ego to boast quite so much about it so they got forgotten... Basically what I'm saying the more Solars get "Pumped up" the more Lunars go up with them... Leviathan Proved that by surviving the usurpation, blowing up most of the Realm's fleets and Slaughtering all the DBs in Luthe (you know the guys that killed Amayana who at the time was controlling the Directional platform and all it's deadly, deadly toys)


Anyway I'm ranting off subject... Despite what I just said, I believe that using solar Exaltations was the right call, not because they were really stronger*, but simply because it was more convenient for two reasons: the Solars were already trapped and relatively easy pickings and 2 they were less mutable than Lunars and less likely to wiggle free from captivity. now take into consideration WHO came up with the plan to make the Green Sun Princes: the Ebon Dragon, the single greatest conniving EVIL Genius Creation has ever seen and the prime designer of the Unconquered Sun... don't you think that it might be somewhat easy(er) for an Ex-primordial to wipe the modifications off the exaltations (no matter what kind, so long as it's celestial), at least compared to some celestial got who is two leagues under him is station, and just remold the damn things from their purest simplest form?... Basically, in my opinion, it doesn't matter what kind of Exaltation they'd have used the result would have been the same, the raw Exaltations modified by the Yozi in pretty much the exact same way the Incarnae did so long ago... It was just a matter of the solar exaltations being an easy target, that and sticking it to the Unconquered Sun by taking his precious kiddies away from him as a vengeance for beating him at the games of Divinity! (that dragon holds a grudge!)


*(the great maker gave the Incarnae the Exact same exalted sparks, all exactly as powerful as each other, all the Incarnae did was add their own flare to them. Solars were made into symbolize Perfect Mortals. Lunars were made to symbolize Evolution. Sidereals Wisdom of fate... and Gaia just didn't give a rat's ass and gave the ones she got to her kids the Elemental Dragons who split them up and let them Breed like rabbits... It was the Unconquered Sun who demanded the other Exaltations be made subservant to his so the others built in limitations to their kids, no creating more charms for Sidies and the Solar bond for Lunars (then again p.20 of the Lunar book says that the sun got got Duped by Luna on that one) but nowhere does it say that the exaltations themselves were weakened)
 
I don't mean in-world. I mean on a design level. While you're certainly free to defend the standing order, that has nothing to do with the intent of this thread.
 
I did address that, though it was somewhat mixed in with all the ranting... anyway resumed it wouldn't change anything mechanically, as far as I can tell they stripped the solar exaltations of all that made them solars before adding on the "Yozi Programming" which would explain why Green sun Princes have access to all the charms that the Akuma can get, only they can take them from any Patron where Akuma can only take the Infernal charms from whichever Yozi corrupted them. I mean the base exaltation are all Identical if you strip away the Bells and whistles added on by the incarnae it probably dosen't matter where they took it from be it Solar, Lunar or Sidereal (dragon blooded have had their base exaltations split into many weaker shards so they wouldn't work but that's it)


Does my previous rant make more sens now? For the context setting of my reasoning at least?
 
That's just wrong, though. Alchemicals are the base Exaltations that Autocthon created, and each caste (while fairly balanced amongst each other) has it's own unique style and abilities, even if that's not mechanically represented anywhere except anima effects. Speaking of anima effects, it's really obvious that Infernals are modified Solars from their anima powers. From that to the method of Exaltation to their facility with sorcery, they're twisted Solars.


Even assuming the Yozis could wipe the slate clean, so to speak, they chose not to, and they chose Solar Exaltations specifically. The Exaltations post-aspecting by the Incarna are even more diverse than the various sets Authocthon had created, and saying that they're all fundamentally equal is simply inaccurate.


All of that aside, Infernals are what they are, but with the Gunstar Autocthonia Shard and the base premise of the thread, why are we arguing about what already is there instead of like, you know, talking about how cool Infernal Lunars could be? It's a really fun idea which seems to be continuously trampled by "but they're Solars." Yes. Obviously. But there's literally nothing in any book that says there can't be Infernal Lunars too, and certainly some twisted Green Sun Prince would want to "convert" their mate.
 
Thank you Sunder. You eloquently stated what I'm about to state bluntly and succinctly: KG-Motte, you others who focus on that: You are missing the point of this thread. I get that they are. I don't care about your defenses for why they are. This was meant to be a What if thread, and your arguments in defense of what is are irrelevant to the actual purpose thereof. I get what is. I don't especially care why what is is. I care about what might have otherwise been. Anything else is off topic.
 
OK, OK, I'll shut up about my personal opinions about the why and the how and just get back into the real topic, sorry for letting myself get derailed by the various previous posts...


Well the possibility of a Lunar Exaltation being corrupted in a way similar to GSPs would be a very attractive prospect for the Yozi, not only to compliment their mates (which if we choose to go Lunar in stead of Solar, rather than along with, is irrelevant anyway) but also to take advantage of their core principle of "Evolution". Imagine how the demon forces of Malfeas (or any other Yozi for that matter) would benefit from using Lunar bodies as incubating tubes to force grow and evolve themselves by setting themselves up in a way similar to a Coadjutor except they are allowed to exit the Lunar at any time with a new and improved body (or possibly just sectioning a part of the Lunar's flesh and taking control of it in creation, a pet made from me!), and get replaced by a different demon which in turn will grant it's host new abilities that fit with it's nature. I mean why use the exact same method with both, when you can diversify your assets? Then there's that whole Helltech made from a corrupted Lunar that simply scares the crap out of me, it keeps growing and growing and getting stronger and smarter...


Also I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Neverborn had plans to make Ma-Ha-Zuchi their new pet after they get him Killed, and they're the brain dead Primordials, so I think the still alive yet diminished ones would probably have a similar Idea only kicked up to 11: make many more! So ya very possible, and kinda scary to think how they'd twist Knacks with their Yozi ways. Unfortunately I remain of the opinion that the charms would probably stay exactly the same as GSPs for reasons that I mentioned in my earlier post, and the charms are the biggest difference between exalt types, so changing which type they were made from would almost certainly change a few core aspects of the Infernals but far more things would remain the same. Still those few alterations would make things quite different in the way to use them and interesting from a context point of view.


You could also theoretically corrupt Sidereals, but take away their access to the Loom of fate and their charms Granted to them by the Maidens, and all you have left is badass Martial artists, and anyone can already learn martial arts so... Wasted Efforts...


As for the Dragon Blooded... Already happening (or about to anyway), just ask the Ebon Dragon's wife!
 
I know what an Akuma is... And no I'm not talking about them at all (though they are also Infernals, just not Green Sun Princes, and this thread is about a variant for them so)... an Akuma takes what is already there and gives it a boost: +1 to sorcery level availability, can use vitriol and Helltech artifacts, and access to ONE of the Yozi Charm trees. (I mean all the charms that Green sun Prices can take can also be taken even by Dragon-Blooded Akuma, they only get one in five of the trees but still one in five DB Akuma can Learn any given GSP Charm) And when I said Corrupted in my last post I didn't mean it in the "Tempted to the dark side" way i meant: Caught, Bleached and manually, twisted into a vastly corrupted version of what it sorta was. and when I say "they would have the same charms" I didn't mean compared to other Lunars, I meant compared to Green Sun Princes. A NON AKUMA Lunar Infernal would most likely have access to all five Yozi Charm trees EXACTLY LIKE Green Sun Princes, not only one like Akuma... That and Akuma Lunars don't corrupt their Knacks, they stay the same... The exclusive Charms Infernals get(no matter what type) are all derived from their Yozi patrons, which is why unless you change which Yozi Decided to make some exalted of their own like Sunder suggested (though personally I think only the Ebon Dragon would have come up with such a Plot) the Yozi Charms would be EXACTLY the same ones...
 
See, I can definitely understand the Ebon Dragon being the one to envision evil Solars, because he's a Primordial and thus very canny and could conceivably have orchestrated events to be such as they are... he has a prison to escape from and gets to subvert the champions of his antithesis and make them his pawns. Once he's done so, it's entirely possible Yozis who know better than to trust betrayal personified decide to put their own twist on it. It's true that their main mechanic (Yozi Charm trees) would be unchanged, but their knacks add a lot of wiggle room.


Hilariously, Infernal Sidereals would be the only Infernal Exalted to have access to Sidereal Martial Arts... if they were able to retain it. Solars can learn it, but Infernals cannot, so there is a chance that unless they were very careful with how they created them, twisting Sidereals would actually remove... everything from them? On the other hand, Sidereal Charms function in a unique way, as a set. It's possible that they could be engineered in a way to draw power from different constellations, either those that exist through Gebre, the Panave of Dying Stars, (assuming I got the spelling correct) or those that might have been through Oramus. Because everything is better if you get him involved!


The idea of a helltech-twisted Lunar is actually really great, I hadn't thought of that, but I can see how that might be viable... Helltech warstriders are already a living frame with the Essence of various demons fused to it, and an Unwoven Coadjutor is a demon who's Essence has been dissolved into the much greater force of an Exaltation. It would have to be untattooed to begin with, as the process would undoubtedly require a lot of Shaping and genesis. Still, there's nothing a determined Exalt cannot accomplish, and this would be pretty frickin' fantastic. Gonna have to remember this for the next game... or for Aethon
 
If the Infernals weren't corrupted Solars, they'd be one of the other corrupted variety of Exaltations, seeing as that's all the Yozis can "make", due to their surrender Oaths.


In one of my games, the Yozis bred Dragonblooded (much like cattle) and made them all into an army of Akuma. No matter how powerful our group got, fighting them was always a damn terror. Largely because the bastards were made to wipe out cities.


Now. Suppose they went a bit farther than Akumafication. Suppose they reached into the bloodline of the Dragonblooded in their care themselves and started..tampering with their Exaltations. God, just imagine the horrors that would come of that. Vitriolic Dragonblooded? Dragonblooded tied to the Elements of Hell? Yozi charms filtered through Dragonblooded Elemental mastery?


And the best part of this plan? Once all the kinks are properly worked out, all the Yozis need is time to groom and nurture this army into a loyal fighting force, and space to hide them. And they've got nothing but Time these days.
 
Infernal Alchemicals is complicated metaphysically... because they're pure expressions of a Primordial's power and nature already. I'm not sure if they would stay machines, or if a Yozi's influence would be to them what the Unconquered Sun's influence was to the Orchicalcum caste, for instance. Would that be how you get "true" Infernals? Or would it create insane machines, that find a place neither of Clarity nor Dissonance (that's what it's called for Gremlins, yeah?) but something else entirely?


Dragonblooded made to fit the elements of Hell is insteresting. There's still an ocean, after all, but it works somewhat differently. Water would align with Kimbery, Wood to Szoreny (or Metagos?), Fire to one of Cytherea, SWLiHN, or Malfeas, Air to Adorjan, Earth to Quaf or Malfeas... The charms Dragonblooded would innovate would be different than what Solars would conceive of, so the Yozi's would be "gifted" charms in radical new directions. Much like how Lunar Knacks and Shintais would lead to some really interesting things.
 
I just like the idea of Alchemicals naturally outfitted with crazy Helltech and biological grafts. It is complex metaphysically, but I might toy with it.


Infernal Dragonblooded is trickier but as bountiful as you say. Maybe tie each Aspect to a selection of appropriate Yozi, and extrapolate Charms related to each ability on a Yozi-appropriate basis? For example, Malfean Perform Charms and Cytherean Melee Charms for Fire Aspects.


I suppose it might take renaming the Aspects on different lines, too. Hm. Better not dwell on this or I'll start typing and I've got stuff to do.


Infernal Lunars own possibly some of the most interesting and fertile ground for experimentation.
 
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