Fantasy [Title TBD] - Origins and Magic System Brainstorm

[Pandaskel]

Alright, so I think I'm caught up on whats going one but I can't remember if a time zone was decided on. Like is it going to be set in modern time with up to date inventions or in the past with no cars and such?

Deciding that would be putting the cart before the horse. We’re trying to construct the world, what it runs on, etc. first!

 

[LadyOfStars]

If anyone has seen the show Shadowhunters or the the books, they have an interesting take on the source of magic. Withes and warlocks are able to utilize magic due to being the offspring of demons. So magic is limited to a few members of the population, which works if we do a world where not everyone can do magic.

 

[Pandaskel]

If anyone has seen the show Shadowhunters or the the books, they have an interesting take on the source of magic. Withes and warlocks are able to utilize magic due to being the offspring of demons. So magic is limited to a few members of the population, which works if we do a world where not everyone can do magic.

So to clarify, you’re not on board with the frequency idea we’ve been developing and blood/birthright is your suggestion?

 

[General_warNpeace]

Deciding that would be putting the cart before the horse. We’re trying to construct the world, what it runs on, etc. first!

Understood. I just like having a general idea of what it will look like so I can figure out what would work best.
I was actually just thinking about shadow hunters in regards to magic casting. I know that you said you didn't want it to be as complicated as magicians but not as easy as Hp. And in shadowhunters a lot of the powers rest on runes. Tattooing runes into skin to be able to do things. I think that would be an interesting take on some of the trickier spells or rituals.

 

[Gravitational Force]

Anyhow, you’re being aggressive and this is your warning.

I am calm, am not being aggressive, and the interest check had "The Magicians inspired" right in the title. So cut the gaslighting and stop acting patronizing, it's obnoxious. I'm doing exactly what you asked for in terms of suggestions and pointing out problems, so if you don't like them just say so instead of threatening anyone who says something you don't like.

The worldbuilding can be done either way. Either we decide that we want the setting to be like the modern world and design a magic system that fits in it or we design a magic system and then see what world it would fit in.

Understood. I just like having a general idea of what it will look like so I can figure out what would work best.
I was actually just thinking about shadow hunters in regards to magic casting. I know that you said you didn't want it to be as complicated as magicians but not as easy as Hp. And in shadowhunters a lot of the powers rest on runes. Tattooing runes into skin to be able to do things. I think that would be an interesting take on some of the trickier spells or rituals.

At the same time Shadowhunters don't have access to much high level magic and have to make large personal sacrifices to even get close to what a Warlock (Human with demon blood) can do. So would you want something similar or a different distribution of magical power?

 

[Pandaskel]

Understood. I just like having a general idea of what it will look like so I can figure out what would work best.
I was actually just thinking about shadow hunters in regards to magic casting. I know that you said you didn't want it to be as complicated as magicians but not as easy as Hp. And in shadowhunters a lot of the powers rest on runes. Tattooing runes into skin to be able to do things. I think that would be an interesting take on some of the trickier spells or rituals.

I definitely didn’t say that, especially since I don’t think Harry Potter is too easy nor is Magicians too complicated XD

The Magicians has that, called “ink spells”. One, for example, is a tattoo that gives you permanent 20/20 vision in the dark.

Same question as the last Shadowhunters suggestion, though. Is this a new, separate suggestion from the frequencies idea?

 

[Pandaskel]

I am calm, am not being aggressive, and the interest check had "The Magicians inspired" right in the title. So cut the gaslighting and stop acting patronizing, it's obnoxious. I'm doing exactly what you asked for in terms of suggestions and pointing out problems, so if you don't like them just say so instead of threatening anyone who says something you don't like.

The worldbuilding can be done either way. Either we decide that we want the setting to be like the modern world and design a magic system that fits in it or we design a magic system and then see what world it would fit in.


At the same time Shadowhunters don't have access to much high level magic and have to make large personal sacrifices to even get close to what a Warlock (Human with demon blood) can do. So would you want something similar or a different distribution of magical power?

You’re kicked out, apologies ^^

 

[LadyOfStars]

Sorry, sorry, I hadn’t gone far back enough to see the frequencies idea. Mine was just a suggestion, more fuel for the fire lol.

I do like the frequencies idea, it’s a unique form of magic, which I always love to see.

 

[General_warNpeace]

It might have been you or someone else, I can't remember, I just remember in the beginning spellcasting in the two fandoms being compared and a desire for a sort of in between. I could be misrememboring. And no it's not seperate from the frequency more like an add on. And I do remember those spells now that you mention it. Particularly the tattoo that sealed a demon into them or helped Penny control his traveling.

 

[General_warNpeace]

I can imagine normal human are merely able to perceive the lowest frequency, while being(s) in highest dimensional plane would have the power to manipulate, well, everything as they'd have access to every layers of frequency. In some way, frequency would also works as the measurement of power level. This could potentially get really insane the further we go, but I like the idea in general since i like insane stuff anyway.

Also, I'm into having magical creatures exists in this world simply because I can imagine mythology being an actual record of people with access to higher frequency doing their stuffs. (e.g. Hercules being a real person with frequency related to superhuman strength, Sun Wukong being some random monkey who happen to possess a really high frequency that allows him to do crazy tasks, etc.)

That would be a cool idea. Would you only be able to see magical creatures on a lower frequency? Sort of reminds me of percy jackson where only certain people can see creatures through the mist. Everyone else just see's normal things that can be explained or nothing at all.

 

[Table]

You know, as much as I'd like to advance this discussion, there's one question in my mind that I don't remember we have even touched yet.

How do people do magic with these frequencies and stuffs? Like, what's the logic behind it? We don't need to think of something too solid, just thing that makes people nod in understanding and mutter "ah, so that's how it worked,".

 

[Dark lord steel]

Gonna toss in my two cents here:

-Not a fan of frequency=dimension, nor do I like the resulting hierarchy. I like the idea of frequencies being categories, not ranks. A different frequency is just a different frequency, not necessarily above or below (more powerful or less powerful than) any other. You can still have rankings, but they would be within each frequency. You could even “harmonize” two frequencies together and do a kind of fusion magic.
-If we keep the hierarchy anyway, I don’t see why humans are bottom of the barrel
-Think about how many different species of animals exist, my dude. Think about how big the planet is, not to mention if we have other worlds included. In my mind, any and all mythological creatures would exist. Frequencies could be like biological class or order. Skinwalkers, kitsune, and selkies would all “resonate” in the “illusion vibe”, so they’re prone to shapeshifting magic. I also think that creatures can learn to tap into other vibrations, it’s just harder. (Like, people with ectomorph body types don’t naturally put on muscle, but that doesn’t make it impossible, it just makes it harder.)

Humans are usually used as a grounding point of familiarity in these sorts of things, so if they are given abilities, it is often only given to a few of them (this is apparent in most things I've read like this, including the throne of glass series, warhammer, and indeed Harry Potter).

Also, to encourage people to be excited about the new races, they often have to be superior to the humans in some way. The elves (or fae) are normally faster and better at magic, vampires are usually immortal and extremely powerful combatants/or able to do necromancy, you get the idea.

 

[Dark lord steel]

You know, as much as I'd like to advance this discussion, there's one question in my mind that I don't remember we have even touched yet.

How do people do magic with these frequencies and stuffs? Like, what's the logic behind it? We don't need to think of something too solid, just thing that makes people nod in understanding and mutter "ah, so that's how it worked,".

Maybe they tap into it like its a reserve of power, that they can learn to reach through meditating and practice?

(And over time they begin to bind the power to themselves, so it becomes easier and easier to calm on it at a moment's notice?)

 

[Table]

Maybe they tap into it like its a reserve of power, that they can learn to reach through meditating and practice?

(And over time they begin to bind the power to themselves, so it becomes easier and easier to calm on it at a moment's notice?)

Huh. I'd like to add some idea myself.

So basically, I'm thinking of something along the line of Law of Conservation, where something must be traded to perform magic. That something would be the frequency within oneself and the natural frequency existing around them (If we're going to have magical frequency as something that existed in nature since the beginning of existence, it'd make no sense if human or any other being don't have one within themselves).

And yes, I assume that there is a magical frequency for literally everything, even abstract conceptual existence. It just that the more abstract a concept is, the harder it is to perceive the frequency, and therefore harder to manipulate.

Also, we need to shorten the name for our magical frequency. Writing 'frequency' all the time sounds like it would be too obnoxious, when most other magic system only user words with two or less syllable for their name.

 

[Morzone]

Ok so, here's my pitch.

1: The frequencies are tiered based on the natural level of energy the exist in. The first frequency is reality. It's the lowest, weakest, and generally the only level of reality that can handle matter and general existence in a stable way. Every frequency above the first one exists essentially between reality, Each one contains a level of energy based on the tier of the frequency. The higher the frequency, the stronger the magical energy. (Note, these other frequencies are not other dimensions. Think of them as an "Energized" reality that on its own is too unstable to sustain existence as we know it.)

2: The different frequencies are not different types of magic, but rather a measurement of magical power. If we assume normal reality is Tier 0, Tier 1 magic is the most basic level of magic. This would range all the way up Tier 12, the most powerful frequency level. However, the higher the frequency power, the more unstable it is to inject this frequency into normal reality. A Magic user must train their senses, control, Strength, etc. to be able to handle each increasing level of frequency. This takes years of study and training. Your average magician will probably master about 7-8 frequencies over their lifetime. Scholars, High Mages, Magical researchers, and other people with similar high standings would most likely attain control over frequencies up to 10. Only True legends and Once-every-other-generation rare Masters will be able to control all 12 frequencies.

3: Controlling the frequencies works like this: Every Magician as an innate ability to 'feel' the energized realities around them. (Sort of like how in Harry potter Wizard/Witches simply have an innate, inherited ability to use magic) All one has to so to use the frequencies, is to concentrate the energy generated by the frequencies around you at a single point. At this point, the energized reality frequency being controlled is attempting to mesh itself into the existing tier 0 frequency at the point of concentration. Now, if its left uncontrolled at this point, you get a "divided by zero" Moment. If the frequency is relatively week, this moment will generally just sooth itself over as the frequencies are pushed back into their normal state of inbetween. However if the energy is too high, it can't normalize on its own and a random act of magic will occur, usually one with very bad consequences. Magical Diseases, Rampant magic, Reality distortion, and similar things are the usual result.

Now, all you have to do to avoid this is to give the Moment a Command. When you're still learning to use magic its encouraged to say the command out loud, as it helps to visualize the desired outcome (which is the key part, you must visualize exactly what outcome you want and command the unstable frequency mesh to organize itself into that outcome) Once a magician has a few years of training they learn to cast magic silently, which is generally a lot quicker than spelling things out. However, its important to note that when you're giving the command, you must maintain complete control over the frequency until you release the energy back into its normal state. if the magician loses control, the energy from the condensed frequency will become rampant and unpredictable. it might continue the command without stopping, it might splinter and cause random acts of magic too occur. It may simply explode. Rampant Magic is exceedingly difficult to get under control again and generally takes the skill of someone two frequency tier levels stronger than the original caster. Otherwise the magic will simply continue until the energy has spent itself out and normalcy is returned.

So, Summary:
Magic exists in frequencies of "energized reality" From 0 (normalcy) to 12, (The most powerful) Each level of frequency is more powerful and can produce more potent and complex spells, however each level is also increasing difficult to control and has increasingly dire consequences for things done wrong. You can do practically anything with this magic, as long as the frequency you're using has enough energy to make it happen. Frequency energy is infinite, it will not run out. (there will be other limitations as to why spells can't just be perpetually maintained)

A Magician Must practice and master the frequency prior before the can use the next level of frequency. (You have to learn to use frequency 1 before 2, 2 before 3, and so one)

The average magician will Master up to Frequency 7-8, which will get them comfortably through the magical needs of life. Professionals who study magic, or who have to respond to Rampant magical emergencies will generally Control up to 9-10. Only a chosen few have the skill and ability to master up to 11 and 12, these people are well renown through out the world.

Controlling the Frequencies has three steps:
Condensing Frequency energy to a single point. All magicians have the innate ability to do this, but require training to understand how to do it properly.
Visualizing and giving a command to the condensed Energy. Beginners will say commands out loud while skilled magicians can simply think them. Not giving a command will result either in a return to normalcy (low frequencies) or dangerous Rampant Magic (high frequencies)
Lastly, the magician must maintain control over the condensed energy while the command is carried out. Higher frequencies are increasingly difficult to maintain control, and loss of control will result in rampant magic relative to the frequency strength.

(Note, while I say Magicians can innately use the frequency magic, I'm leaving it open as to how they inantely do it. Whether they can simply will the condensing to happen, or if a medium is needed such as a wand, staff, gemstone, etc.)

Edit: Wile I don't mind useing "frequency" I agree with Table that there are probably better (and more magical sounding) names.

 

[LadyOfStars]

I think it’s a great system that allows for a lot of great ideas in the future as far as characters and plots.

I’m actually not against calling it frequencies, if you imagine someone like a fortune teller using the term, it doesn’t sound too out of place XD.

 

[Table]

I personally like Morzone 's pitch. It really does have huge potential and allows further development.

By the way, how does 'Wave' as the name of our magical frequency sounds? Since we've been throwing the term frequency willy nilly, might as well use a term closely related to it.

 

[Sprite Pepsi]

2: The different frequencies are not different types of magic, but rather a measurement of magical power.

This I disagree with. It sorts of ruin the point of it all to just have it be one magic.

Plus, I'm not a big fan of power levels in general. Mostly because it's near impossible to get an objective ruling on what spells belong to what frequency or whatever so the balance tends to go all over the place.

 

[Morzone]

Table
I was thinking maybe we could use the terms "Stratum" and "Spectrum"
Spectrum as in the Magical Spectrum, encompassing the 13 different Magical Stratum. (Stratum is a fancy way of saying Layer)

Sprite Pepsi
That's kind of the basis for my entire explanation/system though. And I feel saying "One Magic" isn't really appropriate. (Yes I know what you're getting at but hear me out) What I described is only the very basic structure of Magic. The different ways this basic structure can be used is still wide open and up for grabs. A person could use this magic as gravity magic just as readily as they could Transform a hat into some shoes. Like in Harry potter, where most all magic is done through wands, but there are lots of different types. Transfiguration, Charms, Divination, Hexes, curses, etc. So what I'm trying to say is we can still have a bunch of different "types" of magic, but they're defined by modern standards/categories rather than magic itself.

As for the Power levels, I don't want them to be completely Objective. Spells generally aren't going to be specific to a singular Frequency level, but rather what you can do with a spell will increase the higher the frequency you can control. Take Gravity magic for instance. At a lower Level like 2 or 3 you would probably just be able to levitate items. Get a little higher and you'd be able to make them fly around a room, organize themselves onto high shelves, etc. Get high enough and you could use gravity magic to walk on walls. A high master would probably be able to make themselves fly, at high speeds and with great nuance. Yes, I realize we should all at least have a general consensus on what level of magic is needed to perform certain actions, but I don't want a clear-cut list of spells for each Frequency. It should be based more on how creatively the magic is used rather than the base power of the magic. Weak magic used creatively is superior to strong magic used erroneously after all.

 

[Sprite Pepsi]

So what I'm trying to say is we can still have a bunch of different "types" of magic, but they're defined by modern standards/categories rather than magic itself.

I don't really see how that's different from being "one magic", it's just different names on the spells. Like, what I classify as "one magic" is that thing that one mage can use it for at any given time. So if, say, one mage can use magic to both utilize gravity magic and turn hats into shoes then both would be classified as part of the same magic. Regardless of if the latter is technically a transfiguration-type spell and the former isn't.

As for the Power levels, I don't want them to be completely Objective. Spells generally aren't going to be specific to a singular Frequency level, but rather what you can do with a spell will increase the higher the frequency you can control.

I don't see how that makes it better. My issue still remains, if there's no objective rule on what can be done at what level, then the whole point of having different power levels go out the window.

 

[Morzone]

I don't really see how that's different from being "one magic", it's just different names on the spells. Like, what I classify as "one magic" is that thing that one mage can use it for at any given time. So if, say, one mage can use magic to both utilize gravity magic and turn hats into shoes then both would be classified as part of the same magic. Regardless of if the latter is technically a transfiguration-type spell and the former isn't.


I don't see how that makes it better. My issue still remains, if there's no objective rule on what can be done at what level, then the whole point of having different power levels go out the window.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the definition of "One Magic"

As for the Power levels, I'm not trying to throw objectivity out the window, but I am trying to avoid over-simplifying or becoming overly specific to what people can and can't do with magic. I feel if we assign specific spells to each Level, it gives the impression that if you can do one spell on that level, you can do all of them. Magic isn't, or in my mind at least shouldn't, be that straight forward. Individual magicians can specialize and find they work better with one type of magic over another. They may find they have a knack for healing magic, but struggle when it comes to controlling flying objects. Because of this they might be able to control up to say level 8 Healing, but only level 6 gravity control. The system is based on the idea that even if the magic itself comes from the same spectrum of frequencies, the people using the frequencies are different and as such the magic cannot be applied in a uniform way.

When it comes to deciding what can or can't be done on a certain power level, all we need to do is discuss it and come to an agreement. When a problem arises or if someone is unsure whether they're magic is too strong to be used at their current level, we can discuss it and come to an agreement. Keep in mind that what I described is only the basic structure of magic, I didn't go into any further details. I'm sure that if we do go with that system, we'll have plenty of time to flesh out the different ways the magic can be utilized, as well as how much power that utilization would take.

 

[Table]

I don't understand this entire "one magic" deal, or why Morzone's second point made it pointless, so I'll just leave that to both of you :/

As for the power leveling, I feel like we could just pull a tamer version of vsbattle's tiering system, where tier 1 spell would only affect an individual, tier 2 could probably affect a small group of people, and so on and so on until tier 12 where the entire world or even larger area is affected.

"But what about spells that cast instant death to just a single person? Wouldn't that be too OP for a tier 1 spell?"

Well, we could just ban it from the RP, essentially come up with in-universe explanation like "it doesn't exist, deal with it".

However, in the case that we do have insta-kill spells, I'd like to treat it as a "high tier spell accumulated into a smaller area-of-effect". Essentially, imagine dropping an entire building made of concrete into a single human being. That poor guy would've been crushed to death in an instant, or at least severely damaged. So rather than an instant death spell, it would be more of a spell with large damage, but the damage is so large that there's no way people who are unprepared can endure it. The same could be applied to some other types of spell.

 

[Dark lord steel]

I don't understand this entire "one magic" deal, or why Morzone's second point made it pointless, so I'll just leave that to both of you :/

As for the power leveling, I feel like we could just pull a tamer version of vsbattle's tiering system, where tier 1 spell would only affect an individual, tier 2 could probably affect a small group of people, and so on and so on until tier 12 where the entire world or even larger area is affected.

"But what about spells that cast instant death to just a single person? Wouldn't that be too OP for a tier 1 spell?"

Well, we could just ban it from the RP, essentially come up with in-universe explanation like "it doesn't exist, deal with it".

However, in the case that we do have insta-kill spells, I'd like to treat it as a "high tier spell accumulated into a smaller area-of-effect". Essentially, imagine dropping an entire building made of concrete into a single human being. That poor guy would've been crushed to death in an instant, or at least severely damaged. So rather than an instant death spell, it would be more of a spell with large damage, but the damage is so large that there's no way people who are unprepared can endure it. The same could be applied to some other types of spell.

In warhammer we have from tier 1 - 4, with four being the highest. If a wizard can tap into a certain wind (or for us frequency) then they can theoretically pull as much power as they like from that wind, but if they are a low level the chance a of them losing control of the magic is much greater. Also, there is danger for anyone pulling too much magic from the winds, as it could tear the body and mind apart (and because daemons live in the winds of magic), so we could use this as a limitation if you want.

Their level represents their training rather than their innate skill though, but that's more for game balancing purposes.

 

[Sprite Pepsi]

As for the Power levels, I'm not trying to throw objectivity out the window, but I am trying to avoid over-simplifying or becoming overly specific to what people can and can't do with magic.

And my point is that it's not possible to properly enforce a power level system without doing either of those things.

When it comes to deciding what can or can't be done on a certain power level, all we need to do is discuss it and come to an agreement

That just seems like a good way to ensure there's a bunch of extra hassle every time someone casts a spell.

where tier 1 spell would only affect an individual, tier 2 could probably affect a small group of people, and so on and so on until tier 12 where the entire world or even larger area is affected.

I don't think that works. There's plenty of spells that only target one individual but are stronger than spells that target more people.

 

[Morzone]

And my point is that it's not possible to properly enforce a power level system without doing either of those things.


That just seems like a good way to ensure there's a bunch of extra hassle every time someone casts a spell.


I don't think that works. There's plenty of spells that only target one individual but are stronger than spells that target more people.

I think the disconnect here is that we keep using the word "spell" and I think I may be thinking of "spells" from only one perspective. When I think of someone casting a spell, I think of it like Harry potter, Say Magical words X and get Magical Outcome Y. This is something I want to avoid, as I want magic to be much more free-form than that.

Yes, when we discuss in what ways magic can be used, we will assign to the best of our abilities what can and can't be done on certain power levels. But I don't want the Power-level system to be thrown out simply because we haven't done an in-depth analysis of what each power level is capable of. When I said we would discuss it when a problem arose, I only meant when someone pulls an idea out of left field and tries to use magic in a way we didn't think of before. We will most certainly before that attempt to go over as much as we can to establish a strong spectrum of acceptability.