The Realm as Atlantis: an excuse for Elephant cavalry

[Coyotekin]

Drew, I disagree with elephants being banal, boring, or not being intimidating. I certainly would get the hell out of the way of a charging elephant personally and I'm pretty sure I would be very cautious of approaching an angry one.


I just felt that an elephant cavalry just didn't seem fitting to the Empire. That is just my personal opinion. I do agree with it being more fitting to different cultures near certain Elemental Poles, only because I have certain culturals references here in the world to color my opinion. And that's just me.


As for references to Atlantis it just didn't mesh with me. I am not saying it is wrong in any sense. I just pointed out that it didn't seem fitting again to me.

 

[Shicato]

Practicality Issues


I have to say that I do think that elephant cavalry would be cool, but only in the right locations.  I believe that elephants are supposed to be very finicky animals that require a lot of specialised care and feeding.  They are also very expensive to maintain and panic easily.  It would be oh so easy for a solar to flare his anima, most likely causing the elephants to panic and turn around and charge through the Realm's ranks causing a lot of devastation.


The Realm in particular I think would be unlikely to use elephants in general because the majority of their battles are fought overseas.  Transporting elephants around Creation would be a huge pain in the ass and a logistical nightmare.  That's the main reason I'd say that the Realm does rely on the legion model.  It's very adaptable and inexpensive (comparatively speaking).


Now Dragonbloods having elephants as personal mounts makes a lot of sense to me, far less control problems and it would be a lot easier to create some sort of howdah that negates the problem of anima banner.

 

[Dracogryff]

I'm coming in rather late to this, but personally, I don't quite get why an ISLAND nation would be willing to put forth the resources necessary to care for the elephants on a place already needing to import food to feed its people alone, let alone go to the effort of transporting them OFF the island to where they're fighting all their wars. Oh, I could see a legion or something in the south that found them useful and used them occasionally or some such easily, but I don't see it as all that plausible to have the nation having a rather large drain on resouces like elephants, a resource will only be useful in somewhat limited circumstances. Can't take them to the north, for instance (Hannibal and the Alps, anyone?).


The above argument goes as much for the Realm as for Atlantis, actually. If they had a large island where they had to fight with some of the people on it, maybe I might see it better, but when all the war is going on off the island itself, it just seems way too hard to transport them. Food, size of the ship required, how much waste one of those critters is bound to produce...eh. Warstriders are much more economical. You don't need to feed them, at least. Warstriders are also less replaceable, so it's a give and take sort of thing I guess. But then, the fact that the elephant isn't going to have 20/20 soak, 20 hardness (or whatever the term is), 12 strength, or do even half as much damage....it might make the Warstrider look a bit more useful. And that's just the weakest Warstrider.


I think I need to find this reference of elephants in Atlantis, though. Electricity, spaceships, modern medicine, and I think I've even heard of them having a death ray, but I've never, ever heard of elephants in Atlantis. Ahwell.

 

[Andrew02]

well good for you.  but i guess that would go double for the rest of the Realms military wich is just a banal boring rip of the Roman Legions, right down to the distaste for cavalry.

Did you read the fucking book, you idiot? They don't have cavalry for logistical reasons. The Dragon-Blooded elite can't ride horses.

except your arguements against it are pretty much "me no like, you stupid!"

God, you're such a fucking child. You're an idiot. Those are not my fucking arguments at all. I'm sorry you are too much of a pussy to take no one jumping on your elephant love-fest. Grow a pair.


Any reasonable individual can see that I have not hitherto made any attempt to prove your stupidity.

Except the Legions are a bit more "meat and potatoes" to run around willy-nilly using dinosaurs,

But willy-nilly with elephants is fine? Fuck, you're an idiot.

elephants are a bit more grounded fitting into the bronze age feel,

Hey, take a fucking gander at this idea, champ. Exalted isn't set in the fucking bronze age. Steel has been discovered and is commonly used for weapons and armour. Horse riders use stirrups. The bronze age feel is not an overriding and dominating factor in any significant fashion.


Lookshy gets compared to Sparta a handful of times. They're not very fucking bronze age, are they? Hmm?

AND a part of the Atlantis myth

Wake the fuck up. Apart from you, no one has claimed to have even the faintest fucking clue elephants are part of the Atlantis myth.

along with the fact that Rome:TotalWar makes it clear that Elephents smashing into enemy lines are cool.  

I have not played this game, or any of the Total War games. Given how you have posted in the past, I am unwilling to give you the benefit of the doubt and acknowledge that the game might have statistics that make elephants cool.

Which is more then enough for me.  

No doubt.

I just find it wierd that tweaking the Realm to have always having used Elephents makes the game so alien to you that you can't relate it.  

I find it weird you're so fucking surprised and upset no is jumping up and saying, "man, elephants are fucking cool! Let's go jerk to some Rome: Total War screenshots of elephants!"


The thing is, the Realm ALWAYS using elephants just makes no sense! Why use elephants when you have stockpiles of advanced magitechnological weaponry?

And for that I'm sorry.

Go fuck yourself, elephant-boy.

Oh, I could see a legion or something in the south that found them useful and used them occasionally or some such easily

I could see that too. The Legions are mentioned to occassionally employ local forces to fill certain tactical positions (very often, cavalry). I don't recall and am not enthused enough about this topic enough to check, but I believe Ang-Teng does or did provide some elephant cavalry when asked.

 

[Spook]

well it's nice to see the style of posting that made the first EC such a cess pitt is alive and well.

 

[Haku1]

well it's nice to see the style of posting that made the first EC such a cess pitt is alive and well.

Spook, just shut up and sit down.


I hate not being nice and all, but go over what 'Drew said and just think subjectively.


1) Logistics - the amount of work transporting the elephants ANYWHERE would be huge.


2) Take a damn good look at the anima flux of the Dragonblooded, note how they can NOT be mounted as when it kicks in, those mounts tend to die.


3) That said, the Realm likes to employ LOCALS when they need a calvary or extra units, so it's possible in areas where elephants or elephant-like animals exist and are used as mounts that you might get a realm unit with elephants or something like it. War-mammoths...


4) If you're going to have an irrational love for elephants, Jordi might thank you for your care... but Vapula would REALLY love you if you go with brass elephant jugganauts.


5) You will NOT reply to this in a mean tone or else I will cheerfully plant a beef-steak in your heart in the name of Lady Novalis!  :twisted:

 

[Spook]

1) Logistics - the amount of work transporting the elephants ANYWHERE would be huge.

Well one would think a powerful nation led buy elemental supermen could figure it out.

2) Take a damn good look at the anima flux of the Dragonblooded, note how they can NOT be mounted as when it kicks in, those mounts tend to die.

which is why they Dragon Blooded don't ride them. Instead they exploit the trouble an enemy has when 20-30 elephents slam into the enemy flank.

3) That said, the Realm likes to employ LOCALS when they need a calvary or extra units,

Which is why I mentioned having the Legions moving a bit away from it's Roman model to support the fact that during the Realms almost800year history they have alwasys used Elephants.  I'm not saying take the Realm as is, and add big trunked animals,  I'm saying make it so they hvae alwasy used them and have obviously found ways around the logisti problems, and thr Romans distaste for Cavalry

 

[Joseph]

1) Logistics - the amount of work transporting the elephants ANYWHERE would be huge.

I'm almost positive in terms of both upkeep and transportation, elephants would be cheaper than, say, warstriders, and usable by mortals to boot.

2) Take a damn good look at the anima flux of the Dragonblooded, note how they can NOT be mounted as when it kicks in, those mounts tend to die.

Why would a Terrestrial Exalt waste his combative prowress by guiding the elephant?  Mortals can do it just fine, and it's the elephant that is doing the fighting, not the trainer.  

5) You will NOT reply to this in a mean tone or else I will cheerfully plant a beef-steak in your heart in the name of Lady Novalis!  :twisted:

This does not even make sense.

 

[Andrew02]

well it's nice to see the style of posting that made the first EC such a cess pitt is alive and well.

Don't you fucking start shit and throw that in my face, bitch. I was nice and civil until you whined like some white-wolf.com forumite that no one liked your elephant idea, and no one had the slightest fucking clue about your claims that Atlantis always used elephants.

Which is why I mentioned having the Legions moving a bit away from it's Roman model to support the fact that during the Realms almost800year history they have alwasys used Elephants.

Why in the fuck would they bother? In the Realm's history they had inherited magical weaponry from previous regimes that far exceed the benefits of elephants? Your fucking problem is you never address any fucking counterpoints. You just whine and snivel about stupid shit like this instead of bothering to address anything.

Instead they exploit the trouble an enemy has when 20-30 elephents slam into the enemy flank.

I'm thinking it's going to be a lot easier for Wyld Barbarians, Fey, and all of the other nasties that Legions fight to exploit elephants. I very much doubt that mortal handlers in the Age of Sorrows are going to be any more capable of handling elephants than contemporary humans are, and every time I've seen "When Animals Attack!" there has been at least one case of an elephant going berserk.

thr Romans distaste for Cavalry

The Realm has no fucking distaste for cavalry, you simpleton. All Dynasts are required to buy Ride. Breeding horses and riding them is one of the rich, elite snobbish hobbies that Dynasts engage in. They fucking love their horses, and they fucking love to ride them.

I'm almost positive in terms of both upkeep and transportation, elephants would be cheaper than, say, warstriders, and usable by mortals to boot.

Cheaper, yes, but they enhance suckier troops that the Legion commanders don't give a damn about. The cost to provide for a fang of warstriders will produce results much more worth the cost than a fang of elephants.

 

[Spook]

The Realm has no fucking distaste for cavalry, you simpleton. All Dynasts are required to buy Ride. Breeding horses and riding them is one of the rich, elite snobbish hobbies that Dynasts engage in. They fucking love their horses, and they fucking love to ride them.

Do you really know that little of the source material?  The LEGIONS don't like cavalry.  This is becasue the Legions are pretty much a cut and paste job of the Roman legions, the Romans weren't the most renowed horsemen in the world and liked to outsource... just like the Realm.  The anima flux was a happy accident, giving the DB's an excuse to not like cavalry.

Why in the fuck would they bother? In the Realm's history they had inherited magical weaponry from previous regimes that far exceed the benefits of elephants?

Except they don't have all these stockpiles of weapons for the regular grunts to use, If they did the Heavy Foot would be equpped with gunzota armor and essence weapons, instead of a Breastplate and axes.  Not to mention the fat that the "previous regime" went all balls out in wasting those inherited magic goodies on one another, rather then saving them for their decendents


What great mystic weapons are you speaking of?


Warstriders?  that tke highly skilled exalted savants to maintain for any period of time.


Siege Weapons?  The Legions don't use essence siege weapons in mass.  They build mundane engines when they need them on the spot.


TFD's?  Oh yeah they just have tons of those laying about to crush every threshhold rebels.

 

[Andrew02]

Do you really know that little of the source material?  The LEGIONS don't like cavalry.  This is becasue the Legions are pretty much a cut and paste job of the Roman legions, the Romans weren't the most renowed horsemen in the world and liked to outsource... just like the Realm.

Who owns the Legions, shit fuck? Who hold the command positions?


Dynastic Houses. The single independant Legion is the Vermillion Legion, which is under the command of the Roseblack. I'm not sure if she is a Dynast, ex-Dynast, or if she's just grounded or something and House Tepet is going to bring her back now that they have no Legions anymore.


The Legions have no specific antipathy towards cavalry. The logistical concerns are simply what cause them to employ local cavalry in place of maintaining their own cavalry formations. That is what the book says. Prove me wrong with a page number instead of crying like a bitch.


Seriously. Are you going to argue the Legions hate slings, too?

The anima flux was a happy accident, giving the DB's an excuse to not like cavalry.

You mean to tell me that the designers implemented that feature as a MISTAKE, which they later realized made it difficult not to use cavalry?


You do know that mortals are affected by anima flux as well, right? And, at high enough levels, other Exalted? Anima Flux could cause the Dragon-Blooded's mortal servants to die just as easily as it would cause a horse beneath a Dragon-Blooded to die (with, no doubt, equally deleterious results).


Did you consider this statement at all?


You are confusing impracticality (which is the chief argument against elephants, as it is with horse cavalry) with dislike. Legion structure does not include cavalry because the guy who wrote the 1,000 Correct Actions of the Upright Soldier (or whatever) had a raging hate-on for horses, dip fuck.

Except they don't have all these stockpiles of weapons for the regular grunts to use, If they did the Heavy Foot would be equpped with gunzota armor and essence weapons, instead of a Breastplate and axes.  Not to mention the fat that the "previous regime" went all balls out in wasting those inherited magic goodies on one another, rather then saving them for their decendents

You're an idiot. Stop putting words in my mouth. It illustrates your stupidity in ways I could never do so. You exaggerate my statements for reasons I cannot begin to fathom. Why I am the target of your crude insults is equally unfathomable as your elephant suggestion was very nearly universally rejected. And, frankly, you've presented very little beyond, "I think elephants are cool! I think I'll make the Realm use them!" and expect some sort of accolade.


Even if they don't have as much in contemporary Age of Sorrows as, say, Lookshy does, the Realm came into existence with a significant amount of First Age weaponry. Stop for a moment, and realize, as most reasonable individuals do, that this is a relative statement. A significant number of daiklaives, for example, is not enough to outfit EVERY Dragon-Blooded with two working hands with five daiklaives. A significant amount would be an amount that is among the highest amounts of city-states, empires, etc., with access to said equipment.


To reiterate, a significant amount of First Age or Shogunate weaponry inherited from previous regimes does not mean equipping EVERY SINGLE FUCKING INDIVIDUAL with First Age or Shogunate weaponry.


The Realm came out of the most generous stockpiles of First Age and Shogunate weaponry. The use of such weapons predominated tactics until they diminished to such a point that only Lookshy has what any reasonable individual would deem abundant.


Now, with this preamble I am sure you will ignore simply because you are an immature child who cannot cope with the fact I do not find the same allure in elephants as you do, onto the point. The Dragon-Blooded originally fought as foot soldiers within the grand Exalted army, much as the rank and file soldiers of contemporary legions might. Presumably, they continued to do so with greater autonomy under the Solar Deliberative. During the periods following, they acted with greater and greater autonomy from Celestial commanders until the Usurpation, which resulted in near total autonomy.


Up until contemporary times, Dragon Blooded have fought with magical weaponry. The mortal soldiers they came to be commanders of fought with these as well. Evidence of this arises in shock pikes which were rarely well equipped to fire many shots as the mortal soldiers were expected to die after discharging their weapons only once or twice.


Such considerations have formed tactics utilized by the Realm and Lookshy. The Realm, in contemporary times, has exhausted the majority of their magical weaponry which may be utilized by mortals (or so we may presume. The bulk of mortal weaponry which may be utilized by mortals comes from the Outcaste, a book which came out 2 years following the Dragon-Blooded book), but it seems unlikely that they are destitute of magical weaponry as you seem to imply. Their Artifact background, after all, is second only to Loyal Abyssals. Even without purchasing any dots in Artifact, Dynasts receive a single artifact. Also, important to the use of Warstriders, their Manse background is also very generous.


As an aside, I did not claim the Realm had extensive stockpiles to equip all of their Legions with magical weaponry. I merely claimed what they DID inherit (e.g. whatever quantities of things such as Warstriders, Dragon Armour, high Power daiklaives etc.) EXCEEDED the benefit they might gain from elephants. I am convinced that a fang of Warstriders is much more effective than a fang of elephants, even though Warstriders are much expensive and require a more complex infrastructure to support. Additionally, I make the assumption that only Exalts are using Warstriders, while mortals are the ones managing elephants. Exalts may use Warstriders quite well. An elephant, however, would likely have a control rating requiring the mortal handlers to be the equivalent Elite Troops. The Ride system is shit. It is just plain hard to fight mounted on even something like a horse. Elephants, I submit, are more difficult to control. Warstriders, after a token period of training, pose no great difficulty to a Dynast beyond the deprivation of motes (which Breeding may take care of quite splendidly).


But, going back to the idea that the Realm's tactics would be shaped by a long history of having access to artifacts and such, there would be little reason to suddenly turn to elephants as soon as the Realm came into being (which, if memory serves, preceeded the ascension of the Empress to the Scarlet Throne. Even if it did not, the continued functionality of the Defense Grid suggests ample ENOUGH weaponry existing that the turn to elephants is difficult to consider).


Again, better options exist for the Dragon-Blooded apart from elephants. Simhata would be ideal mounts for Dragon-Blooded to lead their own cavalry formations on. One could posit that a certain bloodline of Simhata existed whereby the Simhata behaved like certain pack animals which follow an alpha. The Dragon-Blooded need merely control the alpha Simhata, and then other Simhata of the 'pack' would behave because of the Dragon-Blooded's control over their alpha (thus permitting the mortals to ride Simhata as well, ensuring that mounts do not die due to the Elemental Anima).

 

[Haku1]

1) Logistics - the amount of work transporting the elephants ANYWHERE would be huge.

Well one would think a powerful nation led buy elemental supermen could figure it out.

Yes, I'm sure they figured out that it's not worth the time and energy to do so.


Think about it, you have to handle the handlers, the feed for the animals, care of the animals. Then you come to where they have to transport those damn creatures.


Think on the size of an elephant, they're not going to be able to ship more then a few with ships unless they deploy an entire armada to float an unknown amount of elephants, which would have to be quite a number in order to qualify as a calvary.


Yes, they're huge, they're impressive, but when barbarians can field their own war-mamoths, and yeddims are larger then a elephant, they're not THAT impressive.


And don't say that the elephants would be travelling by land, think of the speed the DBs NEED to be able to respond to battles, especially if they're a calvary unit.... speed and all that being important for them.

2) Take a damn good look at the anima flux of the Dragonblooded, note how they can NOT be mounted as when it kicks in, those mounts tend to die.

which is why they Dragon Blooded don't ride them. Instead they exploit the trouble an enemy has when 20-30 elephents slam into the enemy flank.

Most opponents are not dumb enough to ignore going after something that large if they get the chance. And if your enemys are other exalts... say a Dawn... who ha ha, choses to use his anima power... you're looking at a panicked elephant.


Also, let's assume that your war elephants are comparable to say a Mammoth(I couldn't find elephant stats), you get some of the nasty buggers out there like say a barbarian tribe of beastmen... they'd think the DBs are bringing them lunch. as they may be huge, but their dodge pool is 0, their soak is 5L/10B, their dex is -3-, their health pools are -0 x 3, -1 x 3, -2 x 2, -4, I. So, they're -big-, -slow- and just as durable as an exalt with a few ox-body. It would take a few turns to take one down, if it was decked with massive armour plating, but it would be very possible.


Then there is als a matter of what type of climates you can take an elephant to, withour it getting into trouble, ie too cold, not enough feed... that kind of details.

3) That said, the Realm likes to employ LOCALS when they need a calvary or extra units,

Which is why I mentioned having the Legions moving a bit away from it's Roman model to support the fact that during the Realms almost800year history they have alwasys used Elephants.  I'm not saying take the Realm as is, and add big trunked animals,  I'm saying make it so they hvae alwasy used them and have obviously found ways around the logisti problems, and thr Romans distaste for Cavalry

WHY Elephants? is there some sort of hang-up that you have with those things?


Personally, if you want elephants in your games... go ahead, no skin off my back... but myself, the way I see it, if they do have calvary... they won't be using elephants. It would most likely horses, perhaps godblooded horses for the dragonblooded commanders... perhaps camel mounts in the deserts... perhaps mammoths in the north. You see, it does NOT make sense for elephants to be the defacto calvary units for the whole bloody Realm since its creation. See, calvary units tend to be FAST moving units, that has to be relatively easy to transport/move about.


THAT is part of the core of the argument against using elephants calvary units by the Realm.

1) Logistics - the amount of work transporting the elephants ANYWHERE would be huge.

I'm almost positive in terms of both upkeep and transportation, elephants would be cheaper than, say, warstriders, and usable by mortals to boot.

See my reply above.

2) Take a damn good look at the anima flux of the Dragonblooded, note how they can NOT be mounted as when it kicks in, those mounts tend to die.

Why would a Terrestrial Exalt waste his combative prowress by guiding the elephant?  Mortals can do it just fine, and it's the elephant that is doing the fighting, not the trainer.

Damn if I know... but you don't really think that a DB would allow some uppity mortal to be able to do stuff they can't or won't do, do you? Say riding some big grey moving targets?

5) You will NOT reply to this in a mean tone or else I will cheerfully plant a beef-steak in your heart in the name of Lady Novalis!  :twisted:

This does not even make sense.

It's not supposed to make sense. I just got a nice infusion of In Nomine.

 

[Spook]

ranting asshole snipped

WHY Elephants? is there some sort of hang-up that you have with those things?

well it has to do with Rome Total war showing that visually Elephants in heavy war barding are neat, and to play in with  that Plato describes Atlantis as having a breed of elephants native to it's shores.

Personally, if you want elephants in your games... go ahead, no skin off my back... but myself, the way I see it, if they do have calvary... they won't be using elephants. It would most likely horses, perhaps godblooded horses for the dragonblooded commanders... perhaps camel mounts in the deserts... perhaps mammoths in the north. You see, it does NOT make sense for elephants to be the defacto calvary units for the whole bloody Realm since its creation. See, calvary units tend to be FAST moving units, that has to be relatively easy to transport/move about.

I'm not saying replace all horses with elephants.  I'm saying that an Atlantean inspired Legion doctrine includes and has always included a bunch of mortals on elephants stepping on naked barbarians.  They can still use foreign cavalry auxilaries like always  

but you don't really think that a DB would allow some uppity mortal to be able to do stuff they can't or won't do, do you? Say riding some big grey moving targets?

So he can lead the charge that finishes of the enemy army?

 

[Andrew02]

Go, Haku. You are the man.


Not like that pussy, Spook. Can't even finish what you started, bitch. You STARTED getting snarky, NOT ME. You brought every insult on yourself, I'm uncultured.

Haku said:



Think on the size of an elephant, they're not going to be able to ship more then a few with ships unless they deploy an entire armada to float an unknown amount of elephants, which would have to be quite a number in order to qualify as a calvary.





 

We should also consider how many houses have any significant naval power and where the settlements with docks capable of handling ships large enough to transport elephants are, really. Though the latter could very easily be changed, altering the former is very significant. Infusing multiple houses with the naval power to ship elephants from the Blessed Isle to the main continent is very significant (after all . . . if you would need to protect the ships carrying elephants, otherwise rebels could go out in fishing boats, chuck a few bottles of burning pitch onto your elephant shipping boats . . . and your elephants are toast).


You can get away with shipping fewer Warstriders simply because there are not a lot of them anyway, and there would be few Dragon-Blooded to use them. And, of course, since you've got Exalted pilotting your warstriders, they can be far more effective than a comparable number of elephants.

Haku said:



Yes, they're huge, they're impressive, but when barbarians can field their own war-mamoths, and yeddims are larger then a elephant, they're not THAT impressive.





 

Don't forget that Legions fight Fey and such. Fey can probably field more and better things than elephants, and those barbarians can field bigger and badder monstrosities if they have had even a little exposure to the Wyld.

 

[Spook]

If you think thats remotely true, well your sense of continuity are very, very broken.

Quote



Infusing multiple houses with the naval power to ship elephants from the Blessed Isle to the main continent is very significant (after all . . . if you would need to protect the ships carrying elephants, otherwise rebels could go out in fishing boats, chuck a few bottles of burning pitch onto your elephant shipping boats . . . and your elephants are toast).





 

Is that even neccesary?   The Realm navy has over 4500 mundane ships, and  85First Age craft.  I don't think defending a few elephant barges is going to be a huge drain of resources.

Quote



Don't forget that Legions fight Fey and such. Fey can probably field more and better things than elephants, and those barbarians can field bigger and badder monstrosities if they have had even a little exposure to the Wyld.





 

that has nothing to do with the point, is having a Dawn caste make your elephants go rampageing through your own men cool?  Yes.  Does it provide colorfull scenary for stunts?  yes.  Thats what matters.


I'm coming at it froma  meta point of view, "if its cool it works"  as it should

 

[Haku1]

WHY Elephants? is there some sort of hang-up that you have with those things?

well it has to do with Rome Total war showing that visually Elephants in heavy war barding are neat, and to play in with  that Plato describes Atlantis as having a breed of elephants native to it's shores.

Okay, Spook? I want you to do something for me... it's not hard or vile or anything.


I want to open a window, close your eyes breath in some fresh air...  and clear your mind of Atlantis = Realm, clear your mind of the concept of Atlantis.


Now, we're only going to talk elephants and the Realm and exalted, NOT Atlantis. Okay?

Personally, if you want elephants in your games... go ahead, no skin off my back... but myself, the way I see it, if they do have calvary... they won't be using elephants. It would most likely horses, perhaps godblooded horses for the dragonblooded commanders... perhaps camel mounts in the deserts... perhaps mammoths in the north. You see, it does NOT make sense for elephants to be the defacto calvary units for the whole bloody Realm since its creation. See, calvary units tend to be FAST moving units, that has to be relatively easy to transport/move about.

I'm not saying replace all horses with elephants.  I'm saying that an Atlantean inspired Legion doctrine includes and has always included a bunch of mortals on elephants stepping on naked barbarians.  They can still use foreign cavalry auxilaries like always

But that's just it... the concept of calvary is fast response, rapid movement, swift attacks designed to break ground forces.


In order to have that, you need fast moving mounts like horses or some equivilant.


What you're postulating here is a huge force of elephants, yes, they're nice and huge and can scare people not used to them when they go stampeding. Which works well in certain areas and with certain tactics.


However, when your opponents can potentially cause your calvary to break and panick before getting near them, this is going to be an issue. Also If said enemy has the abilight to field something LARGER and MEANER and in numbers, then your calvary of elephants are screwed. No, seriously.


This is aside from the fact that an exalt or beastman or fey or something scary and possibly large can cripple an elephant with a single hit. This makes the investment in the elephant, its transport, its care, its training -wasted-.

but you don't really think that a DB would allow some uppity mortal to be able to do stuff they can't or won't do, do you? Say riding some big grey moving targets?

So he can lead the charge that finishes of the enemy army?

With his anima flux going all over the place and injuring the elephant? I can't see it outside of specific cases.

Think on the size of an elephant, they're not going to be able to ship more then a few with ships unless they deploy an entire armada to float an unknown amount of elephants, which would have to be quite a number in order to qualify as a calvary.

We should also consider how many houses have any significant naval power and where the settlements with docks capable of handling ships large enough to transport elephants are, really. Though the latter could very easily be changed, altering the former is very significant. Infusing multiple houses with the naval power to ship elephants from the Blessed Isle to the main continent is very significant (after all . . . if you would need to protect the ships carrying elephants, otherwise rebels could go out in fishing boats, chuck a few bottles of burning pitch onto your elephant shipping boats . . . and your elephants are toast).

Exactly, you're talking fleets of ship here, dedicated to transport of elephants, as opposed to soldiers, food, supplies, weapons...


And as 'Drew noted, there is also the matter of where you can dock and drop off those critters, who would then need to be herded off the dock area. Not exactly convienent or fast.

You can get away with shipping fewer Warstriders simply because there are not a lot of them anyway, and there would be few Dragon-Blooded to use them. And, of course, since you've got Exalted pilotting your warstriders, they can be far more effective than a comparable number of elephants.

Also, warstriders do not need to be fed, cleaned up after, kept from panicking in bad weather on the ship... And if they -sink-, they can be retrieved intact... relatively from the bottom of the sea... if you get enough water aspect dragonblooded or with the aid of sea spirits. Elephants would be fish food VERY fast.

Yes, they're huge, they're impressive, but when barbarians can field their own war-mamoths, and yeddims are larger then a elephant, they're not THAT impressive.

Don't forget that Legions fight Fey and such. Fey can probably field more and better things than elephants, and those barbarians can field bigger and badder monstrosities if they have had even a little exposure to the Wyld.

*Nods* Monsters are easily what your elepants would be facing out there; behemoths, necromatic war-machines designed to do icky things to living things. And this is outside of the wyld. Also note that there are charms and spells -designed- to affect animals.... like your elephants.

 

[Haku1]

Infusing multiple houses with the naval power to ship elephants from the Blessed Isle to the main continent is very significant (after all . . . if you would need to protect the ships carrying elephants, otherwise rebels could go out in fishing boats, chuck a few bottles of burning pitch onto your elephant shipping boats . . . and your elephants are toast).

Is that even neccesary?   The Realm navy has over 4500 mundane ships, and 85 First Age craft.  I don't think defending a few elephant barges is going to be a huge drain of resources.

But that's just it, those ships have specific purposes, like transporting tribute to the realm, guarding the sea around the Blessed Isle. Going after ocean-borne enemies of the Realm. And remember, your cargo are VERY precious, the loss of a single ship would be considered heavy losses by your side. You'll very rapidly hit the point of diminishing returns. Where, it just wouldn't be worth it to transport those damn things.

Don't forget that Legions fight Fey and such. Fey can probably field more and better things than elephants, and those barbarians can field bigger and badder monstrosities if they have had even a little exposure to the Wyld.

that has nothing to do with the point, is having a Dawn caste make your elephants go rampageing through your own men cool?  Yes.  Does it provide colorfull scenary for stunts?  yes.  Thats what matters.


I'm coming at it froma  meta point of view, "if its cool it works"  as it should

But it's not that cool. Not when your elephans go forth to a location and then be neutralize. THAT would be the thing that would be unexceptable to the Dynasts in the Realm, especially if it keeps happening. And they get the feelingthat their money, their jade in the procurement of those beasts, their training, their care, their armour, their handlers are ALL wasted. For nothing.


EDIT - Spelling in one of the quote tags

 

[Andrew02]

*Nods* Monsters are easily what your elepants would be facing out there; behemoths, necromatic war-machines designed to do icky things to living things.

Warstriders and their pilots have a bit of an edge over elephants and their handlers, as you mentioned earlier with the weather. Some monsters are sure to scare your elephants, and probably the handler as well. Even if the handler makes his Valor check (which is quite conceivable, as I posited he would likely be an Elite), it would probably shoot the difficulty of controlling the elephant beyond a mortal's ability to consistently achieve.

 

[Andrew02]

If you think thats remotely true, well your sense of continuity are very, very broken.

Before you got uppity, the worst I had done was claim what you offered was boring. This should not be even remotely insulting.

 

[Spook]

But that's just it... the concept of calvary is fast response, rapid movement, swift attacks designed to break ground forces.


In order to have that, you need fast moving mounts like horses or some equivilant.

Elephants can charge at about 25mph a little slower then an unencombered person sprinting his heart out.  weighing in at 3-5 tons braking units underfoot is not a problem.

What you're postulating here is a huge force of elephants, yes, they're nice and huge and can scare people not used to them when they go stampeding. Which works well in certain areas and with certain tactics.

No i'm postulating the warstrider boat sailing right next to the elephant boat.  a fang or two of elephants, 20? 30? not exactly a horde or an army.  Merely another cog in that army.  These are not the 60foot high things from LotR

However, when your opponents can potentially cause your calvary to break and panick before getting near them, this is going to be an issue. Also If said enemy has the abilight to field something LARGER and MEANER and in numbers, then your calvary of elephants are screwed. No, seriously.

Semantics.  why bother bringing anyone to the battle if all your guys suck?   Big mean monsters don't attack your big mean monsters, thats what heroes and Exalts are for.

This is aside from the fact that an exalt or beastman or fey or something scary and possibly large can cripple an elephant with a single hit. This makes the investment in the elephant, its transport, its care, its training -wasted-.

again semantics, an exalt can can smash huge groups of soldiers, monsters, elephants, whatever.  The point is you don't aim them at the exalts who will kill them at a glance.  You aim them at the mortal troops, beastmen are still extras and trampled just as easy as human, or hobgoblins.

With his anima flux going all over the place and injuring the elephant?

no, no, no.  Elephants smash into flank and through the unit, Exalts walk right into the no disturbed unit ripping it to pieces.  Or better yet, goesto finish off the units heroic leader, leaving the mortal stomping to the elephant and his mortal troops.

Exactly, you're talking fleets of ship here, dedicated to transport of elephants, as opposed to soldiers, food, supplies, weapons.

 wow another few barges.  yeah that totally ruins the feel of the game.

And as 'Drew noted, there is also the matter of where you can dock and drop off those critters, who would then need to be herded off the dock area. Not exactly convienent or fast.

point?

Also, warstriders do not need to be fed, cleaned up after, kept from panicking in bad weather on the ship... And if they -sink-, they can be retrieved intact... relatively from the bottom of the sea... if you get enough water aspect dragonblooded or with the aid of sea spirits. Elephants would be fish food VERY fast.

and warstriders need near constant maitanance by a team of highly skilled savants lead up by at least a terrestrial to keep them running.  What happens if someone kills the savants.  same differance.

*Nods* Monsters are easily what your elepants would be facing out there; behemoths, necromatic war-machines designed to do icky things to living things. And this is outside of the wyld. Also note that there are charms and spells -designed- to affect animals.... like your elephants.

No Exalts will be fighting fey, monsters, whatever.  The Elephants would be fighting mortals and other extras.  


Not every Legion engagement will feature exalts, and it's silly to think everytime they go out that they are challenged by Exalt after Exalt.  reading your posts makes it sound like I'm replacing the Dragon Blooded with elephants, with all the what are your elephants gonna do when they run into giant spider behemoths?  Die!  Giant Spider behemoths trump elephants in coolness, and the game supports coolness over substance.

 

[Haku1]

You know, spook, talking to you is like talking to a wall. It's like you have the idea of Elephants = the cool and you refuse to let it go, no matter what other people say. And when whatever people  say that doesn't agree with your worldview regards elephants, you simply ignore it.

But that's just it... the concept of calvary is fast response, rapid movement, swift attacks designed to break ground forces.
In order to have that, you need fast moving mounts like horses or some equivilant.

Elephants can charge at about 25mph a little slower then an unencombered person sprinting his heart out.  weighing in at 3-5 tons braking units underfoot is not a problem.

That's just it... horses can move alot faster and alot longer then the elephant can charge. Think about.


This isn't just a battle charge, calvary MUST move fast at all times, this includes when they're travelling over land to be deployed at a battlefield.


Outside of their charge, they're big lumbering meaty targets. They're slow compared to what a horse based calvary can do, they're not particularly mobile.


Also, don't forget, elephants need alot of food and water per day, even more so then horses would, Which is where logistics kick in. Where would you get the water and water (don't you dare say transported in carts behind the elephants).


Now, it makes sense for An Teng to have an elephant based army, they've got the infurstructure to support the elephants, and a use outside of battle. Battle being a part of what the elephants are put to use if it comes. It's NOT their sole purpose as what you're postulating here.

What you're postulating here is a huge force of elephants, yes, they're nice and huge and can scare people not used to them when they go stampeding. Which works well in certain areas and with certain tactics.

No i'm postulating the warstrider boat sailing right next to the elephant boat.  a fang or two of elephants, 20? 30? not exactly a horde or an army.  Merely another cog in that army.  These are not the 60foot high things from LotR

Don't you dare try to twist what I say.


A ship can NOT carry more then 1 elephant, at best 2. This is mainly because of the size of an elephant, the amount of feed they need, the amount of good drinking water they need, the supplies its handlers need to keep the elephant in good health. This doesn't even factor in what the crew of the ship need.


And god help your ship if it gets caught in bad weather, because those elephants WILL panic and go on a rampage in its enclosed area, quite possibly don't damage to the ship when and where it can NOT take it.


And warstriders as it is, get deployed VERY seldom, unless the need is great; say a siege, behemoths, massive battles or impressing some local yokel. They're rarities.

However, when your opponents can potentially cause your calvary to break and panick before getting near them, this is going to be an issue. Also If said enemy has the abilight to field something LARGER and MEANER and in numbers, then your calvary of elephants are screwed. No, seriously.

Semantics.  why bother bringing anyone to the battle if all your guys suck?   Big mean monsters don't attack your big mean monsters, thats what heroes and Exalts are for.

It's NOT schematics. This is the reality of what your elephant calvary WILL face and they DO suck. No, REALLY.


Because you see... they're nice big lumbering targets... and thus easier to hit and in turn... killed or take out of the action.


Remember, a single elephant takes YEARS to mature, to train. It takes alot of money to keep it fed and to train, alongside with its handlers. Now, you take it out to its first deployment and oops it gets killed? Investment gone down the drain.

This is aside from the fact that an exalt or beastman or fey or something scary and possibly large can cripple an elephant with a single hit. This makes the investment in the elephant, its transport, its care, its training -wasted-.

again semantics, an exalt can can smash huge groups of soldiers, monsters, elephants, whatever.  The point is you don't aim them at the exalts who will kill them at a glance.  You aim them at the mortal troops, beastmen are still extras and trampled just as easy as human, or hobgoblins.

It's not schematics. Beastmen are not extras to a mortal, which is what you have riding the elephants, they're heroic mortals. it's not that unfair a fight. Remember, no DBs on said elephant.


And those exalts and enemy heroes/leaders you're NOT pointing those elephants at? The're most likely at the core of said army or leading it. So where are your elephants pointed at again?

With his anima flux going all over the place and injuring the elephant?

no, no, no.  Elephants smash into flank and through the unit, Exalts walk right into the no disturbed unit ripping it to pieces.  Or better yet, goesto finish off the units heroic leader, leaving the mortal stomping to the elephant and his mortal troops.

Fair enough... again... this tactic is going to be situational that depends on the terrain. Also, bear in mind that a DB does NOT like to face a enemy leader without first getting their followers to beat down on the leader abit first, getting them to waste essence.

Exactly, you're talking fleets of ship here, dedicated to transport of elephants, as opposed to soldiers, food, supplies, weapons.

 wow another few barges.  yeah that totally ruins the feel of the game.

Barges, which need to be protected, which can not dock easily unless the docks it's going to can support the unloading of elephants. This is going to retstrict it to ports in major cities.

And as 'Drew noted, there is also the matter of where you can dock and drop off those critters, who would then need to be herded off the dock area. Not exactly convienent or fast.

point?

See above for the point.

Also, warstriders do not need to be fed, cleaned up after, kept from panicking in bad weather on the ship... And if they -sink-, they can be retrieved intact... relatively from the bottom of the sea... if you get enough water aspect dragonblooded or with the aid of sea spirits. Elephants would be fish food VERY fast.

and warstriders need near constant maitanance by a team of highly skilled savants lead up by at least a terrestrial to keep them running.  What happens if someone kills the savants.  same differance.

Indeed, same difference, but given how rare you'd be fielding striders. And the fact that you can ship those striders seperately from the savants. Remember, the maintenace ONLY occurs if the strider is used.

*Nods* Monsters are easily what your elepants would be facing out there; behemoths, necromatic war-machines designed to do icky things to living things. And this is outside of the wyld. Also note that there are charms and spells -designed- to affect animals.... like your elephants.

No Exalts will be fighting fey, monsters, whatever.  The Elephants would be fighting mortals and other extras.  


Not every Legion engagement will feature exalts, and it's silly to think everytime they go out that they are challenged by Exalt after Exalt.  reading your posts makes it sound like I'm replacing the Dragon Blooded with elephants, with all the what are your elephants gonna do when they run into giant spider behemoths?  Die!  Giant Spider behemoths trump elephants in coolness, and the game supports coolness over substance.

But that's just it, every legion engagement WILL feature exalts, namely Dragonblooded in the realm's legions, and what they would face may not be exalts, but they will eventually hit another DB, a lunar or some other celestial exalt with their elite warriors. This is assuming the barbarians don't simply a lay a trap designed to take advantage of the terrain, say firing up the grassland to take out the realm forces. And keep in mind that soldiers are a dime a dozen (to the DBs), but the elephants will NOT be that cheap to get, or to replace.


In the end, it comes down to money...

 

[Joseph]

That's just it... horses can move alot faster and alot longer then the elephant can charge. Think about.


This isn't just a battle charge, calvary MUST move fast at all times, this includes when they're travelling over land to be deployed at a battlefield.

No they do not.  Horse mounted cavalry has to because horses are easy to take down.  Elephants, much less so, and they inspire much more of a fear factor.  Taking a few pot shots at a war-trained elephant with your arrows will likely piss it off rather than kill it.  

 Outside of their charge, they're big lumbering meaty targets. They're slow compared to what a horse based calvary can do, they're not particularly mobile.

Elephants are quite mobile, and fast enough to be effective on a battlefield.  Try outrunning an elephant, you'll fail.  The fact that they move faster than non-mounted humans, as such, ensures they are at least fast enough to participate in battle.

 Also, don't forget, elephants need alot of food and water per day, even more so then horses would, Which is where logistics kick in. Where would you get the water and water (don't you dare say transported in carts behind the elephants).

Sorcery, duh.

 Don't you dare try to twist what I say.
A ship can NOT carry more then 1 elephant, at best 2. This is mainly because of the size of an elephant, the amount of feed they need, the amount of good drinking water they need, the supplies its handlers need to keep the elephant in good health. This doesn't even factor in what the crew of the ship need.

A ship that had a Emerald Circle Sorcerer who conjured up food and drink for the elephants each day using magic could carry at least 5 elephants, assuming it's a properly large cargo ship.  

 And god help your ship if it gets caught in bad weather, because those elephants WILL panic and go on a rampage in its enclosed area, quite possibly don't damage to the ship when and where it can NOT take it.

Or you could just sedate them for the entire voyage, which both keeps them calm AND minimizes the food they'll need.

 And warstriders as it is, get deployed VERY seldom, unless the need is great; say a siege, behemoths, massive battles or impressing some local yokel. They're rarities.

They're rarities because they require a HUGE amount more maintanence than, say, elephants, and they can only be pilotted by Essence users.  

 

However, when your opponents can potentially cause your calvary to break and panick before getting near them, this is going to be an issue. Also If said enemy has the abilight to field something LARGER and MEANER and in numbers, then your calvary of elephants are screwed. No, seriously.

Semantics.  why bother bringing anyone to the battle if all your guys suck?   Big mean monsters don't attack your big mean monsters, thats what heroes and Exalts are for.

It's NOT schematics. This is the reality of what your elephant calvary WILL face and they DO suck. No, REALLY.

You clearly wouldn't use elephants to attack larger things, you'd use them to pacify mortals with minimal effort.  

 Because you see... they're nice big lumbering targets... and thus easier to hit and in turn... killed or take out of the action.

Bigger does not equal easier to kill or take out of action.  By your logic, no one would use tanks, because they're bigger targets.


Elephants are more sturdy than horses or humans, and can do a lot more damage.  Plus they're just plain intimidating.

 Remember, a single elephant takes YEARS to mature, to train. It takes alot of money to keep it fed and to train, alongside with its handlers. Now, you take it out to its first deployment and oops it gets killed? Investment gone down the drain.

Everything you just said is true of soldiers.  So what?  Soldiers might eat less, but they definitely both mature more slowly, and cost more to train and equip overall.


I think you're being too hard on him.  I might not think the Realm WOULD front elephants simply because it doesn't mesh with my image of the Realm, but it's clearly not INCONCIEVABLE, and elephants are much more useful than you make out.


Where did the nice Haku go?

 

[Joseph]

And keep in mind that soldiers are a dime a dozen (to the DBs), but the elephants will NOT be that cheap to get, or to replace.

Raising, training, and equipping a soldier is more expensive than raising and training an elephant.  Neither, however, is particularly expensive to a massively rich nation like the Realm.

 

[Flagg]

You know, spook, talking to you is like talking to a wall. It's like you have the idea of Elephants = the cool and you refuse to let it go, no matter what other people say. And when whatever people  say that doesn't agree with your worldview regards elephants, you simply ignore it.

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable position for someone adding something to a GAME.


To me, the "cool" factor far outweighs the "makes sense" factor, considering that the point of the game is fun, and cool IS fun. All too often banal limitations are not fun.


-S

 

[Haku1]

And Spook, I do hope you're reading Joepsh's reply, as this is how you SHOULD respond to my and 'Drew's points.

That's just it... horses can move alot faster and alot longer then the elephant can charge. Think about.
This isn't just a battle charge, calvary MUST move fast at all times, this includes when they're travelling over land to be deployed at a battlefield.

No they do not.  Horse mounted cavalry has to because horses are easy to take down.  Elephants, much less so, and they inspire much more of a fear factor.  Taking a few pot shots at a war-trained elephant with your arrows will likely piss it off rather than kill it.

But that's just it, this is exalted, your averyage war-elephant (I'm assuming mammoth stats as opposed to yedim stats) isn't THAT much tougher then an exalt with ox-body.

 Outside of their charge, they're big lumbering meaty targets. They're slow compared to what a horse based calvary can do, they're not particularly mobile.

Elephants are quite mobile, and fast enough to be effective on a battlefield.  Try outrunning an elephant, you'll fail.  The fact that they move faster than non-mounted humans, as such, ensures they are at least fast enough to participate in battle.

A fair point.

 Also, don't forget, elephants need alot of food and water per day, even more so then horses would, Which is where logistics kick in. Where would you get the water and water (don't you dare say transported in carts behind the elephants).

Sorcery, duh.

A simple solution, which would work... really, if you can convince a sorcerer who spend years on end training himself in the mystic arts that he has to go around, conjuring food for an elephant or rather a number of elephants for an unspecified amount of time until he gets a replacement.

 Don't you dare try to twist what I say.
A ship can NOT carry more then 1 elephant, at best 2. This is mainly because of the size of an elephant, the amount of feed they need, the amount of good drinking water they need, the supplies its handlers need to keep the elephant in good health. This doesn't even factor in what the crew of the ship need.

A ship that had a Emerald Circle Sorcerer who conjured up food and drink for the elephants each day using magic could carry at least 5 elephants, assuming it's a properly large cargo ship.

Same point as above. But it would cut down on the amount of space needed to transport those things, yes.

 And god help your ship if it gets caught in bad weather, because those elephants WILL panic and go on a rampage in its enclosed area, quite possibly don't damage to the ship when and where it can NOT take it.

Or you could just sedate them for the entire voyage, which both keeps them calm AND minimizes the food they'll need.

Hmmm... that might work.

 And warstriders as it is, get deployed VERY seldom, unless the need is great; say a siege, behemoths, massive battles or impressing some local yokel. They're rarities.

They're rarities because they require a HUGE amount more maintanence than, say, elephants, and they can only be pilotted by Essence users.

Yes, and given that said essence users are the rulers of the Realm, they'd want to be able to show off... do things that no one else can.

 

However, when your opponents can potentially cause your calvary to break and panick before getting near them, this is going to be an issue. Also If said enemy has the abilight to field something LARGER and MEANER and in numbers, then your calvary of elephants are screwed. No, seriously.

Semantics.  why bother bringing anyone to the battle if all your guys suck?   Big mean monsters don't attack your big mean monsters, thats what heroes and Exalts are for.

It's NOT schematics. This is the reality of what your elephant calvary WILL face and they DO suck. No, REALLY.

You clearly wouldn't use elephants to attack larger things, you'd use them to pacify mortals with minimal effort.

Then, what is the point of having elephant calvary about when your mortal soldiers can be used cheaper and just as effectively?

 Because you see... they're nice big lumbering targets... and thus easier to hit and in turn... killed or take out of the action.

Bigger does not equal easier to kill or take out of action.  By your logic, no one would use tanks, because they're bigger targets.


Elephants are more sturdy than horses or humans, and can do a lot more damage.  Plus they're just plain intimidating.

Again, look at the -stats- for a mammoth, a few beastmen WILL take a single elephant apart. Yes, it doesn't make that much sense, but it's how the system works in Exalted.


As for tanks, yes and no... however, they're not identical to what spook is trying to pull here in regards to his elephants.

 Remember, a single elephant takes YEARS to mature, to train. It takes alot of money to keep it fed and to train, alongside with its handlers. Now, you take it out to its first deployment and oops it gets killed? Investment gone down the drain.

Everything you just said is true of soldiers.  So what?  Soldiers might eat less, but they definitely both mature more slowly, and cost more to train and equip overall.

No, but you can recruit soldiers when they're relatively mature, you don't need to care for it when it's young. If you purchase elephants from say... An Teng, they'll sell it to you at great cost per elephant, far more then a soldier's pay would be.


Also, remember, the elephants would need to be equipped and given training and stuff. So cost is part of the factor you need to think about.

I think you're being too hard on him.  I might not think the Realm WOULD front elephants simply because it doesn't mesh with my image of the Realm, but it's clearly not INCONCIEVABLE, and elephants are much more useful than you make out.

That's just it, I'm not against elephants, what I am is against the image that Spook has of the elephants, which is to throw them at every and all problems, when it wouldn't make sense for them to be used.


See... that is the major issue here. He's stating that the Realm MUST have elephants from day 1 of its formation, as calvary, that they MUST be used in all engagements (or possibly only major ones).


If it was calvary alone, I have no issues with that, as long as they make sense in their context. War-mammoths up north, horses in the east, camels and horses in the south, and elephants in their native enviroment in the south-west. The west, unless you're thinking of using killer-whales as mounts, there won't be much call for a calvary... ;;;

Where did the nice Haku go?

The nice Haku was buried when he faced stupidity that doesn't know how to construct proper arguments or when to give up.

You know, spook, talking to you is like talking to a wall. It's like you have the idea of Elephants = the cool and you refuse to let it go, no matter what other people say. And when whatever people  say that doesn't agree with your worldview regards elephants, you simply ignore it.

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable position for someone adding something to a GAME.


To me, the "cool" factor far outweighs the "makes sense" factor, considering that the point of the game is fun, and cool IS fun. All too often banal limitations are not fun.


-S

Yes, that's just it... Spook wants to argue that all games involving the Realm MUST have an elephant calvary. That does NOT sound cool.