The Realm as Atlantis: an excuse for Elephant cavalry

[Joseph]

But that's just it, this is exalted, your averyage war-elephant (I'm assuming mammoth stats as opposed to yedim stats) isn't THAT much tougher then an exalt with ox-body.

I agree.  So let's compare.


An Exalt with Ox Body is substantially tougher than an extra in terms of health levels.  An elephant is even tougher than the Exalt in terms of health levels, if by a potentially lesser margin.


Thus, by correlation, an elephant is MUCH tougher than a mortal soldier.


Then, what is the point of having elephant calvary about when your mortal soldiers can be used cheaper and just as effectively?


I would still say an individual mortal soldier is MORE expensive to raise, train, and equip than an individual elephant, and the elephant is MUCH more potent.  The only real advantage of the mortal is it is easier to transport.


Elephants eat a fair deal, but the Realm surely has plenty of food to feed them.  Mortals eat less, but they require more comprehensive training and actual equipment to fight, and they die a lot faster.  Plus you tend to lose the equipment with the mortal, if stripping occurs (and it surely does).  


I'd say it's probably more economically feasible to go elephant in many situations.

Again, look at the -stats- for a mammoth, a few beastmen WILL take a single elephant apart. Yes, it doesn't make that much sense, but it's how the system works in Exalted.

A few beastmen will take a single elephant apart, but ONE beastman will probably take two mortals apart.  Given the elephant isn't hugely more expensive, it's clearly the better deal, and you aren't further equipping your foe with your superior arms and armament when the elephant dies.

No, but you can recruit soldiers when they're relatively mature, you don't need to care for it when it's young.

Your society still does.  Unless these soldiers are enslaved from outside the Realm (and admittedly, SOME are, but they will be even worse than normal soldiers), then the society has paid for them their entire lives.

If you purchase elephants from say... An Teng, they'll sell it to you at great cost per elephant, far more then a soldier's pay would be.

Not more than your society would have paid to raise that soldier from birth, though.

Also, remember, the elephants would need to be equipped and given training and stuff. So cost is part of the factor you need to think about.

They need to be trained, but not as comprehensively as soldiers, and they require very little equipment to be effective for their premiere use (namely shock tactics and chaos spreading).

That's just it, I'm not against elephants, what I am is against the image that Spook has of the elephants, which is to throw them at every and all problems, when it wouldn't make sense for them to be used.

That's between you and him, I'm just talking logistics.

 

[Dracogryff]

A ship that had a Emerald Circle Sorcerer who conjured up food and drink for the elephants each day using magic could carry at least 5 elephants, assuming it's a properly large cargo ship.

Still would be hard to keep from the ship going under this way. The sorcerer would start damaging the ship under his (or her) feet after casting magic. I suppose it might be possible that said sorcerer might have enough personal essence to not go peripheral, but Sorcery still does set off a nice blast of essence whether or not it's done with personal. But with how Food from the Aerial Table (I assume this is either the spell you were talking about, or were making a variant of) is stated, I doubt they oculd feed one elephant without going peripheral that way. If it's 5 motes for each 10 servings after the first five, that's gonnd be a lot of motes considering these are (I assume) human sized servings. So something to make elephant sized ones would be prohibitive.


Though,  said sorcerer might be able to help with the spell Commanding the Beasts in keeping the elephants from panicking in a storm. Though why the sorcerer would be willing to go through and do 'menial labor' in feeding the beasts of burden, considering sorcerers are a snobby lot usually, I don't know.


Now, this said, I am NOT exactly against the idea of feilding elephants, it's just that look at what happened to the one guy I know of that did use elephants as a major force in his military. He was defeated by a mountain range. Hannibal didn't get too far, did he? I'm sure there's others who have fielded the big guys with decent success, but I don't see why an island nation would be willing to go to the effort of shipping such large beasties overseas myself. Use 'em when they're over there, sure. If they train their own troops over there or something, I can certainly see them training 'em. But spenging the effort to try to get them over a fickle ocean and find some place large enough to dock over there, I don't know.


And when it comes down to it, when fighting Barbarians or whatnot in a number of circumstances, they'll often have their own elephants or tyrant lizards or mammoths or whatever. And they'll probably be better at commanding theirs, having been playing with the things since they were three, personally raised the one they're riding so that it loves them and will do anything for them, and well, the animal avatars like them. They won't have the warstriders if you need something big and scary. But then, if elephants are waht you want to use, go ahead. I personally just don't see the allure.


And don't be so sure that you will know that there is an exalt in the enemy forces. I mean, if the Oiluphants (sp?) were cool shreeding through troups, Legolas was cooler killing one with I think only three arrows and one shot. And don't think that whatever exalt archer is out there in the enemy lines can't pull off as good of a stunt. And you might not even know that they're exalted until they pull that trick off, either. Night castes in particular don't like being immediately obvious with their nautres. And what better way than to sneak into an opposing army and slaughtering some of the Realm's troops to thumb your nose at the nation that wants you dead?


And no, I'm not saying that this is a given, or that the elephants are necessarily bad, I just don't see how they could be attached to EVERY SINGLE legion the realm has. I could easily see a few of them having special units of such, but when you're stationed in the north, the elephants go thud. I'm not sure if you're meaning that all the legions have elephant units or that they're a special group of units that can be attached to any given legion, but it sounded like the former to me, and I can't see that. The second, maybe. Who knows, why not have a special section of the Lap that's dedicated to training and raising the war-elephants of the Realm? Then you don't have to worry about shipping them over the not so nice ocean. Something like that. A lot of the issue people have I think, is that you seem intent on attaching the to ALL legions, and they're not all that shipping overseas friendly. I don't know. That's what I have issue with. I won't use the concept, but I don't see why it can't be used, so long as they aren't being shipped around to places that they can't do anything but die like the north as well as everywhere else.

 

[Joseph]

Still would be hard to keep from the ship going under this way. The sorcerer would start damaging the ship under his (or her) feet after casting magic.

Rubbish, this isn't a concern.  The anima rules don't involve you tearing up the ground everywhere you walk while it's active, it just damages other living beings.  Further, if you really insisted on having it harm inanimate structures, you'd clearly have a "casting pad" that was armored sufficiently to protect the ship, and cast while standing on that.

I suppose it might be possible that said sorcerer might have enough personal essence to not go peripheral, but Sorcery still does set off a nice blast of essence whether or not it's done with personal.

Except it just makes a display, so it wouldn't suffer from anima flux, meaning it wouldn't damage things.

But with how Food from the Aerial Table (I assume this is either the spell you were talking about, or were making a variant of) is stated, I doubt they oculd feed one elephant without going peripheral that way. If it's 5 motes for each 10 servings after the first five, that's gonnd be a lot of motes considering these are (I assume) human sized servings. So something to make elephant sized ones would be prohibitive.

You could clearly devise a spell that created low quality food fit for animals in massive quotients.  Even if it required going into peripheral, though, the casting pad solves it.

Though,  said sorcerer might be able to help with the spell Commanding the Beasts in keeping the elephants from panicking in a storm. Though why the sorcerer would be willing to go through and do 'menial labor' in feeding the beasts of burden, considering sorcerers are a snobby lot usually, I don't know.

It's something that would take all of 10 minutes out of their schedule.  It's not like it would be their only duty; they aren't animal handlers, they just take a brief break to conjure up masses of food for their animals every so often.

 

[Dracogryff]

Still would be hard to keep from the ship going under this way. The sorcerer would start damaging the ship under his (or her) feet after casting magic.

Rubbish, this isn't a concern.  The anima rules don't involve you tearing up the ground everywhere you walk while it's active, it just damages other living beings.  Further, if you really insisted on having it harm inanimate structures, you'd clearly have a "casting pad" that was armored sufficiently to protect the ship, and cast while standing on that.

The Anima Flux specifically states, and I quote, 'It can and will damage beings within its radius and will also have detrimental effects on the scenery.'


I'd think if they could make 'platforms' or other things to protect stuff from their banners they'd have done so a long time ago. Special saddles maybe? Heck, make a Hawdah out of the stuff and ride the elephant yourself! (I think that was mentioned at some point already though) They can't keep it from affecting things around them. It goes out a number of feet equal to their permanent essence, hitting everything in that range. I've set off grass fires with fire aspects before. I suppose if you had a suspended platform that was tall enough to keep the bottom of the banner off the ship and armored enough to survive a scene of being pinged, it'd work... and maybe their banner doesn't extend all that far down as opposed to up and out, but if they give a radius, I usually figure it goes in all directions. But, I suppose if you mad a large enough platform and assumed that it had to get through the first layer to get to the yummy goodness behind, this might work without it being a raised one. Seems almost too much effort involved though to me. But, if you want to say they can create platforms that can block anima flux, I don't see why you couldn't make them and thus solve this problem. I just figure they'd mention something that useful, and build more stuff than just platforms that way.

But with how Food from the Aerial Table (I assume this is either the spell you were talking about, or were making a variant of) is stated, I doubt they oculd feed one elephant without going peripheral that way. If it's 5 motes for each 10 servings after the first five, that's gonnd be a lot of motes considering these are (I assume) human sized servings. So something to make elephant sized ones would be prohibitive.

You could clearly devise a spell that created low quality food fit for animals in massive quotients.  Even if it required going into peripheral, though, the casting pad solves it.

But Food from the Aerial Table already creates low quality, but edible food. And too much low quality food is going to make the elephant get sick eventually. Animals require just as much quality as humans, if not more so, to survive. A lot of people don't realize this. It costs like five or ten times as much a year to feed a horse so that it stays healthy than it does your own kid. Mostly because the horse eats a lot more. At least, that's how it worked last time I looked into horses.


An elephant's a lot bigger than a horse.


The way the spell works is you spend 10 motes for the first five servings plus 5 more for every ten servings after that. I assume human-sized servings is what's meant here. I'd think to make it better and/or cheaper than this, you'd have to go Celestial. At least, I thought sorcery worked on a principle of if it made things a lot easier or such it was higher circle. And making elephant sized servings for less essesnce is making a spell that's a lot easier, IMHO. I could be wrong. Feel free to ignore me here if you think I am wrong on this. I also suppose if you want to define the elephants as the some of the spell-caster's 'followers, friends and allies,' the servings might adjust appropriately, but that seems like fudging the rules too much to me. But I suppose it could work too.

Though,  said sorcerer might be able to help with the spell Commanding the Beasts in keeping the elephants from panicking in a storm. Though why the sorcerer would be willing to go through and do 'menial labor' in feeding the beasts of burden, considering sorcerers are a snobby lot usually, I don't know.

It's something that would take all of 10 minutes out of their schedule.  It's not like it would be their only duty; they aren't animal handlers, they just take a brief break to conjure up masses of food for their animals every so often.

And quite possibly all of their essence for several hours, if I'm looking at the power level of terrestrial magics correctly. But then, they're also soldiers, if they're in the legions, so they'd better obey orders, so yes, that's probably not much of an issue. I retract it.

 

[Joseph]

The Anima Flux specifically states, and I quote, 'It can and will damage beings within its radius and will also have detrimental effects on the scenery.'

Accepted.

I'd think if they could make 'platforms' or other things to protect stuff from their banners they'd have done so a long time ago. Special saddles maybe?

I have a hard time believing you're this retarded.  What do you mean "If they could make special platforms?"  There's no IF about it.  Lay down a large circular platform of metal and your anima won't be meaningfully damaging it.  Saddles are clearly too small for this sort of effect, but if you think the piddly 1 die of lethal damage can have a meaningful impact on a thick layer of metal, you're retarded.


It's hard to take you seriously after you've said something this stupid, but I'll let it go and move on to see what other arguments you've made.

But with how Food from the Aerial Table (I assume this is either the spell you were talking about, or were making a variant of) is stated, I doubt they oculd feed one elephant without going peripheral that way. If it's 5 motes for each 10 servings after the first five, that's gonnd be a lot of motes considering these are (I assume) human sized servings. So something to make elephant sized ones would be prohibitive.

You could clearly devise a spell that created low quality food fit for animals in massive quotients.  Even if it required going into peripheral, though, the casting pad solves it.

But Food from the Aerial Table already creates low quality, but edible food. And too much low quality food is going to make the elephant get sick eventually. Animals require just as much quality as humans, if not more so, to survive. A lot of people don't realize this.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.  There's a distinctive difference in the type of corn you eat, and the type of corn that is fed to cows.  Yours is softer, easier to digest, and higher quality in just about every meaningful way.  The same is true of almost EVERYTHING you eat compared to what animals eat.  Domestic animals are fed quite low standards food.


Again, you're saying stupid shit that's making it hard to take you seriously.  A human could not SURVIVE on what elephants eat.  A spell that created a metric ton of plant matter for elephants to eat is easily Terrestrial Circle, and it would easily suffice to keep them fed.

It costs like five or ten times as much a year to feed a horse so that it stays healthy than it does your own kid.

That's because of the QUANTITY of food the horse is eating compared to the child based on its mass, not the QUALITY of the food.  And I'm saying a slightly more expensive spell could easily create MASSIVE amounts of animal quality food.

The way the spell works is you spend 10 motes for the first five servings plus 5 more for every ten servings after that.

And I assert you could make an identical spell that produced animal quality feed in sufficient portions to keep elephants alive, but humans couldn't subsist off of it.  This is the Age of Sorrows, not the real world; animals ARE lesser beings compared to humans, and as such they require lesser quality food, even if you aren't willing (stupidly) to accept that's true in real life.

I'd think to make it better and/or cheaper than this, you'd have to go Celestial.

That's because you're a dumbass that doesn't understand how Sorcery is balanced.  Creating enough food for 10 elephants to eat for a day is clearly a Terrestrial level Spell; it's not all that powerful, it's not HUGELY useful, it's fairly weak.  Hell, even the Spell you describe is a VERY, VERY LOW powered Terrestrial Circle Spell.  


Your understanding of the balance of the game is making it even HARDER to take you seriously, after all the bullshit.

At least, I thought sorcery worked on a principle of if it made things a lot easier or such it was higher circle.

Nope.  Two level 5 Artifacts can vary IMMENSELY in power, and so can two Spells in the same Circle.  There are "low" powered Spells in a Circle and "high" powered Spells in a Circle.  Even if you think the effect I'm describing is somewhat higher (it's not, really), it's still not SUFFICIENTLY higher to bump it up a Circle.  Saying it takes Celestial Circle to FEED ANIMALS FOR A DAY is ridiculous.  Fuck, if there was a Circle LOWER than Terrestrial, BOTH of these Spells would be in it.  

Though,  said sorcerer might be able to help with the spell Commanding the Beasts in keeping the elephants from panicking in a storm. Though why the sorcerer would be willing to go through and do 'menial labor' in feeding the beasts of burden, considering sorcerers are a snobby lot usually, I don't know.

It's something that would take all of 10 minutes out of their schedule.  It's not like it would be their only duty; they aren't animal handlers, they just take a brief break to conjure up masses of food for their animals every so often.

And quite possibly all of their essence for several hours, if I'm looking at the power level of terrestrial magics correctly.

That's what Hearthstones are for.  Using up most of your Essence for a few hours happens almost every time a Terrestrial Sorcerer casts a meaningful Spell or two; they're used to it.

 

[Dracogryff]

Lay down a large circular platform of metal and your anima won't be meaningfully damaging it. Saddles are clearly too small for this sort of effect, but if you think the piddly 1 die of lethal damage can have a meaningful impact on a thick layer of metal, you're retarded.

Okay, and I said exactly that later in the same paragraph if you'd have looked. I tend to ramble. I'll try to be more consise in the future. I admit I don't think I said I was positive it'd work, but I did say I could see how it would and could.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.  There's a distinctive difference in the type of corn you eat, and the type of corn that is fed to cows.  Yours is softer, easier to digest, and higher quality in just about every meaningful way.  The same is true of almost EVERYTHING you eat compared to what animals eat.  Domestic animals are fed quite low standards food.
Again, you're saying stupid shit that's making it hard to take you seriously.  A human could not SURVIVE on what elephants eat.  A spell that created a metric ton of plant matter for elephants to eat is easily Terrestrial Circle, and it would easily suffice to keep them fed.

I was studying to be a Veterinarian for a couple of years. I do know a little. The lower quality corn? That's because the cow isn't expected to do anything but die in a year or two. Go look into the care of a racehorse. That's what I was talking about. And cows have sturdier digestive capabilities than other animals. Feed a horse that corn, and it will get sick. And humans have different digestive capabilities than elephants; of course they couldn't survive on the same stuff. Doesn't make it lower quality for the elephant.


But. I looked at the spell I was looking at. I misread it. It creates 'nourishing, but bland' food for the sorcerer and his followers. So, yes, it probably would work just fine, or with modification. I'm sorry for not looking more closely.

It costs like five or ten times as much a year to feed a horse so that it stays healthy than it does your own kid.

That's because of the QUANTITY of food the horse is eating compared to the child based on its mass, not the QUALITY of the food.  And I'm saying a slightly more expensive spell could easily create MASSIVE amounts of animal quality food.

Which, AGAIN, I said basically the same thing later in that paragraph myself. Do you just skim things?

The way the spell works is you spend 10 motes for the first five servings plus 5 more for every ten servings after that.

And I assert you could make an identical spell that produced animal quality feed in sufficient portions to keep elephants alive, but humans couldn't subsist off of it.  This is the Age of Sorrows, not the real world; animals ARE lesser beings compared to humans, and as such they require lesser quality food, even if you aren't willing (stupidly) to accept that's true in real life.

Accepted, at least for the Exalted world. And, as I mentioned. I DON'T understand sorcery well. Not beyond terrestrial level. I don't know the differences in power. So, yes, I'm sure you know more than I do about this, so accept that this would work. And as I mentioned above, the one charm would probably work as well. And if define the elephants as 'followers' or something, it might even adjust proportions of servings.

That's what Hearthstones are for.  Using up most of your Essence for a few hours happens almost every time a Terrestrial Sorcerer casts a meaningful Spell or two; they're used to it.

You will notice I already conceded this point? But then, as nobody seems to notice where I agree with them, I shouldn't be surprised. Sorry for not getting straight to the point on things, I'm going on only a few hours of sleep and a screaming baby right now. That said, go ahead and use elephants all you want. They don't not work, I just think it'd be easier to just breed 'em on the Lap and ship 'em out to where they're needed overland than send 'em overseas, that's all. But nobody noticed me when I said that either.

 

[Spook]

That's just it, I'm not against elephants, what I am is against the image that Spook has of the elephants, which is to throw them at every and all problems, when it wouldn't make sense for them to be used.


.

again semantics, an exalt can can smash huge groups of soldiers, monsters, elephants, whatever.  The point is you don't aim them at the exalts who will kill them at a glance.  You aim them at the mortal troops, beastmen are still extras and trampled just as easy as human, or hobgoblins.


reading your posts makes it sound like I'm replacing the Dragon Blooded with elephants, with all the what are your elephants gonna do when they run into giant spider behemoths?  Die!  Giant Spider behemoths trump elephants in coolness,

 

[Halfdead Frodi]

I would still say an individual mortal soldier is MORE expensive to raise, train, and equip than an individual elephant, and the elephant is MUCH more potent.  The only real advantage of the mortal is it is easier to transport.
Elephants eat a fair deal, but the Realm surely has plenty of food to feed them.  Mortals eat less, but they require more comprehensive training and actual equipment to fight, and they die a lot faster.  Plus you tend to lose the equipment with the mortal, if stripping occurs (and it surely does).  


I'd say it's probably more economically feasible to go elephant in many situations.

Doubtful. One competent trainer, especially one with military training charms, can train a large number of soldiers in a lot less time than it would take to properly train a war elephant. Additionally, elephant barding is definately more expensive than say the armor necessary for a scale of troops. As well, each elephant will require a number of handlers, and will have significantly less discipline than said troops. And for travel purposes discipline is very important, especially aboard ship. Admittedly, each mortal soldier dies more easilly, but that mortal can in a month reach roughly elite status with a competent Dragonblood trainer... along with at least a fang of his comrades...significantly more if they use their synergistic charms in a team. Meanwhile, a single elephant reached minimal competence...if you're lucky. It may hit harder and be able to take more...but it will not hit harder than a scale...and eats roughly as much...is more difficult to transport and has less discipline.  If the scale wins, then they can easily prevent stripping...while striping their opponents and gaining more useful equipment...instead of leaving behind crushed pulps...if you actually have real combat elephants. There are times the elephant might beuseful, but it will not really be worth the effort as a regular force for all situations. There are too many types of terrain where the elephant is not only impractical, but simply a waste of resources. Try to get the elephants through mountain ranges, close packed forest, desert, etc. Admittedly mortals have some difficulties in the same circumstances, but less so, and more easily fixed. As well,  the theory of Dragonblooded sorcerers acting as food handlers for MORTAL soldier's mounts if just plain laughable. Ever read the bits on this thing called the Immaculate Order? Any understanding of the role of the Princes of the Earth in Creation? Or as my friend says The plant feed the animal, the animal feeds the farmer, the farmer feeds the Dragonblooded....the Dragonblooded feeds the animal? Eh? I dinna think so.

 

[Haku1]

That's just it, I'm not against elephants, what I am is against the image that Spook has of the elephants, which is to throw them at every and all problems, when it wouldn't make sense for them to be used.


.

again semantics, an exalt can can smash huge groups of soldiers, monsters, elephants, whatever.  The point is you don't aim them at the exalts who will kill them at a glance.  You aim them at the mortal troops, beastmen are still extras and trampled just as easy as human, or hobgoblins.


reading your posts makes it sound like I'm replacing the Dragon Blooded with elephants, with all the what are your elephants gonna do when they run into giant spider behemoths?  Die!  Giant Spider behemoths trump elephants in coolness,

I appologize if if it sounded rude or was inaccurate, I was however expressing my opinion on what you've given our in terms of your points up to that point.


Also, you still haven't answered the points I raised or those that the others are rising. I'll note that Joseph does raise good points in defense of the elephants.


Please note, I'm not against calvary. I just feel that if you have Calvary, they NEED to be suited to the enviroment, which means NO transporting of them about, or VERY limited transporting by ship or what have you. In short, they need to be able to be deployed as needed, and sent to the battlefield fast without major shipping.


Also, do elephants make sense in the harsh cold enviroment of the North? No. But War-Mammoths and something suited to the cold temperatures do... say... a Taun-Taun if you want to allow them in your game and didn't mind stealing from Star-Wars.


What about the East? That's a iffy one, and would depend on territories that they (the Realm) hold to be able to support them. Horses would be suitable or whatever you're packing in your games as the common mounts.


South-east? Again, iffy... the enviroment might support elephants, but it seems more like prime dinosaur territory, what with tyrant lizards and stalkers.... ;;;


The south? (desert area) I seriously doubt that elephants would work there. Camels, horses and sand-ships make more sense.


The south? (mountainous/hilly area north of desert) Geography works out a no again.


The south-west? (An-teng/jungle area) It would be a yes, given that An-teng HAS elephants and is a pacified protectorate.


The west? I'll LAUGH if you even suggest an elephant there. Killer-whales are more likely... Aqua-knights and what have you... ;;;


The Realm itself... now this is an interesting possibility. If you can get elephants to breed there, and it makes sense in your games to have elephants to be found in the Realm, then yes... there WOULD be elephant calvary units stationed in the Realm... just don't ask questions about why you'd need calvary units in the Realm itself... or the Secret Service type people will come pay your character a visit.

 

[Andrew02]

just don't ask questions about why you'd need calvary units in the Realm itself... or the Secret Service type people will come pay your character a visit.

You could use them to quell riots (though, canonically, warstriders do a lot of marching around as a show of force to persuade people NOT to riot, rise up, etc.).


Though, the only real reason I can envision for the NEED for cavalry units of any type on the Blessed Isle, apart from Solar invasion or one staged by Ma-Ha-Suchi, is to counter an multilateral invasion by Wyld barbarians riding pterodactyls and warhawks.

 

[Relic]

Current Role Model: Abanddon the Despoiler.

I think you mean "Abaddon".