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The Last War (Alternate WWI)

TheIrradiatedWaffle said:
Not imperialist like others, it was a key point in US politics, where there was a point where  american politicans didnt want to imperialize as it might make the USA get intangled  abroad. As well, the mexican war wasnt really imperailist. Iys kinda like germany getting Alsace Lorraine
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Plus, i didnt say I wasnt guilty of imperialist, im just saying im not like other imperializers and I dont really care for it anymore
 
Tori_98 said:
Wasnt it kind of a political thing? Like half the country was for imperialism, and half against? The Spanish-American War (when we took the Phillipines) was towards the high point of American Imperialism, then public opinion started to turn against it. 
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Im not sure about that, but congress did block our bid to buy greenland cause they didnt want us getting involved in politics in europe
 
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Tori_98 said:
While I agree with most of this, our generals didn't use 'old' tactics. Pershing is remembered today for specifically training U.S troops  to avoid the mistakes made by British and French troops. His doctrine of training American soldiers for a war of maneuvers helped greatly to make the American Expeditionary Force capable of taking on the Germans and winning. The goal was to unseat entrenched troops and flank defenses, then to keep pushing so that the enemy couldn't have time to dig new ones. Without this training and different approach to tactics, our losses would have been much higher. 


That being said, as much reknown as the AEF would earn in WW I, it was still a fraction of the size of European armies, plus, before Pershing hand-crafted it, America didn't even really have any effective fighting force. The US had men and industry, but no logistics to speak of and outdated weapons. When entering World War 1, the United States had to design new or borrow from allies most of its equipment, and because we had a navy but no merchant marine fleet, it took forever to get anything to France.


There was a really long wait from the time America declared war until the time America actually had an army in France because everything had to be learned and built from scratch than transported across the ocean. The chief complaint the other allies had about the Americans wasn't their tactical skill, but basically how long it took them to come and how undisciplined they were in parades. 


I read General Pershing's memoirs for a school project once. He was well studied on the American civil War and the current situation in World War One before leading the American forces in Europe. His primary goal going into the war was to keep his men safe and to avoid the butcher fields the French and British had in their trenches. 
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Agreed, I just said old tactics with new weapons because for the sake of getting to the point. Your explanation is much better!

TheIrradiatedWaffle said:
Not imperialist like others, it was a key point in US politics, where there was a point where  american politicans didnt want to imperialize as it might make the USA get intangled  abroad. As well, the mexican war wasnt really imperailist. Iys kinda like germany getting Alsace Lorraine
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Imperialism "Policy of extending a country's power and influence through military or diplomatic force"


The Mexican American war is definantly Imperialism as it was justified for the sake of "The Manifest Destiny" so it is technically Imperialism. Also, Spanish-American War and The Phillipines. Also Commodore Perry and Japan, also imperialists it for a time.


Imperialism isn't just conquering land.
 
Proxploxtops said:
Agreed, I just said old tactics with new weapons because for the sake of getting to the point. Your explanation is much better!


Imperialism "Policy of extending a country's power and influence through military or diplomatic force"


The Mexican American war is definantly Imperialism as it was justified for the sake of "The Manifest Destiny" so it is technically Imperialism. Also, Spanish-American War and The Phillipines. Also Commodore Perry and Japan, also imperialists it for a time.


Imperialism isn't just conquering land.
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Nope, the Mexican American war happened cause Mexico got pissed by USA annexing Texas, which was a runaway province of Mexico. i didnt say The Philipines wasnt imperialism, Ive never rejected the notion that the US was a imperialist power, so the whole thing with Japan and Philipines and all is irrelevent. I contested one thing and that was about The Mexican American War.


You seem to forget the part about the where I say the USA does not imperialisizing like others. They did not make them colonies, they didnt depend on the areas as their vast overseas empire that they used to determine power and use the people there as workers or as markets. They didnt rely on the manpower. They won a war and annexed lands, and made states. By that logic, the USA was imperializing the area they recieved from UK after the American Revolution. Which they made states. Was hawaii imperialisation? Yes. Is The Mexican- American War imperialism. Maybe.


 But I dont feel bad for a nation that went to war, lost land cause they didnt win when compared to the people of china or africa, having their land taken and being ruled by a bunch of assholes. The only thing that comes close to that  the subjigation and subsiquent genocide of the Native Americans, which I do not ignore. So yeah, do I imperialize. Yes, did the US do bad things? YES. But when looking at the other genocides of imperialism. Of the Ukrainains under stalin, or the starvation of indians during ww2, or the subjigation of africans who suffered under not one but 2 wws as european playthings, i find that the USA as a whole should be able to sleep a bit better than the europeans.
 
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Who is "guilty" of imperialism? Imperialism is the best. 


I'm starting to think we need a new hosted project. 
 
Shireling said:
Who is "guilty" of imperialism? Imperialism is the best. 


I'm starting to think we need a new hosted project. 
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Same.  Did you guys see the news announcement?  THe Moderation tools are fucked up.  Its likely this cant be fixed
 
Shepard said:
Not to toot my own horn but Pershing is my great great grandpa
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Bruuuuuh

TheIrradiatedWaffle said:
Nope, the Mexican American war happened cause Mexico got pissed by USA annexing Texas, which was a runaway province of Mexico. i didnt say The Philipines wasnt imperialism, Ive never rejected the notion that the US was a imperialist power, so the whole thing with Japan and Philipines and all is irrelevent. I contested one thing and that was about The Mexican American War.


You seem to forget the part about the where I say the USA does not imperialisizing like others. They did not make them colonies, they didnt depend on the areas as their vast overseas empire that they used to determine power and use the people there as workers or as markets. They didnt rely on the manpower. They won a war and annexed lands, and made states. By that logic, the USA was imperializing the area they recieved from UK after the American Revolution. Which they made states. Was hawaii imperialisation? Yes. Is The Mexican- American War imperialism. Maybe.


 But I dont feel bad for a nation that went to war, lost land cause they didnt win when compared to the people of china or africa, having their land taken and being ruled by a bunch of assholes. The only thing that comes close to that  the subjigation and subsiquent genocide of the Native Americans, which I do not ignore. So yeah, do I imperialize. Yes, did the US do bad things? YES. But when looking at the other genocides of imperialism. Of the Ukrainains under stalin, or the starvation of indians during ww2, or the subjigation of africans who suffered under not one but 2 wws as european playthings, i find that the USA as a whole should be able to sleep a bit better than the europeans.
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The Mexican American war was a form of Imoerialization. Americans illegally moved to Texas without regard for Mexican laws or culture. We didn't annex Texas until after the war, it remained "the lone Star republic" for ten years. The shots at the Rio-Grande helped Polk justify war with Mexico and so it began. By the end if the war, the US took the west coast and therefore spread influence militarily (Definition of Imperialism right there)


As for your argument saying "oh hey, the USA didn't do horrible things like Stalin etc.", That is irrelevant. Imperialism does not necessarily mean you depend on conquered land. It means you're spreading influence. Just because you imperialists a nation does not necessarily mean you are going to commit mass genocide or war crimes. There's only one type of Imoerialization. How the countries go about it afterwards is up to them. They commit mass genocide? Not Imperialization, fear. They starve their people? Just tyrants, move along. Imperialization IS NOT taking land and torturing them. A quick Google search will tell you, and I quote "The policy to spread influence diplomatically or Militarily". Us sending the natives off isn't Imperialism, it's pretty much racism/prejudice. Us conquering land and taking it for ourselves to spread out power is imperialism.


Anyways, I see what you're trying to say here but I must argue for the sake of this RP so that you know more about the nation! Sorry! I don't mean to offend you elsewise.


Also, as for @R-Breezy @Jolteon @Shireling @general ostruppen @High Moon @Shepard @Bobisdead123 @Lordvader59 etc (I forget the rest)


Staff just contacted me. Creating a new HP is on hold for now... I fucked up. Sorry! I'll go make a CS OOC and RP thread...
 
Proxploxtops said:
As for your argument saying "oh hey, the USA didn't do horrible things like Stalin etc.", That is irrelevant. Imperialism does not necessarily mean you depend on conquered land.
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You guys decimated entire cultures, Only reason USA doesn't get blamed that much is because admitedly History is writen by victors.
 
Proxploxtops said:
Bruuuuuh


The Mexican American war was a form of Imoerialization. Americans illegally moved to Texas without regard for Mexican laws or culture. We didn't annex Texas until after the war, it remained "the lone Star republic" for ten years. The shots at the Rio-Grande helped Polk justify war with Mexico and so it began. By the end if the war, the US took the west coast and therefore spread influence militarily (Definition of Imperialism right there)


As for your argument saying "oh hey, the USA didn't do horrible things like Stalin etc.", That is irrelevant. Imperialism does not necessarily mean you depend on conquered land. It means you're spreading influence. Just because you imperialists a nation does not necessarily mean you are going to commit mass genocide or war crimes. There's only one type of Imoerialization. How the countries go about it afterwards is up to them. They commit mass genocide? Not Imperialization, fear. They starve their people? Just tyrants, move along. Imperialization IS NOT taking land and torturing them. A quick Google search will tell you, and I quote "The policy to spread influence diplomatically or Militarily". Us sending the natives off isn't Imperialism, it's pretty much racism/prejudice. Us conquering land and taking it for ourselves to spread out power is imperialism.


Anyways, I see what you're trying to say here but I must argue for the sake of this RP so that you know more about the nation! Sorry! I don't mean to offend you elsewise.


Also, as for @R-Breezy @Jolteon @Shireling @general ostruppen @High Moon @Shepard @Bobisdead123 @Lordvader59 etc (I forget the rest)


Staff just contacted me. Creating a new HP is on hold for now... I fucked up. Sorry! I'll go make a CS OOC and RP thread...
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Bru, did you not hear me?


I never said the USA DID NOT IMPERIALIZE I SAID, THEY DIDNT DO IT LIKE EUROPEANS DID.  That was my entire point. I'm not hear to argue about whether or not you did. You started this by saying the USA imperialized, so I couldn't  really argue against imperializism. I simply pointed out the USA doesn't rely on imperialism the way Europe does and argued that the Mexican American war wasn't imperialism. Looking over it, I was wrong, cause on another topic, I was right, the USA in the Mexican American war was a different imperialism. Europe did New imperialism, USA did old imperialism.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Imperialism


So yes, while it was imperialism, its not the same thing, it never was. It'd be silly to say it was, cause thatd mean the USA getting the land west of the missippii from UK and Lousinanna from France is the same as You know, the colonization of Africa. And no, the starvation was the UK's attempt to hold the front they were fighting in Asia, so they sent food away from India.


All I've been trying to shoiw is, the majority of USA's Imperialism wasn't about the exploitation of natives. Excep for that kinda Genocide of Native Americans

High Moon said:
You guys decimated entire cultures, Only reason USA doesn't get blamed that much is because admitedly History is writen by victors.
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I never said we didn't. And please, we know. if we forget, someone will remind us

Shepard said:
Mhm. And ironically, I'm going to West Point too
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lel
 
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Whether or not the USA "did it like the Europeans" is irrelevant


I urge you to read up on Pre-ww1 USA and forget the propaganda they feed us at schools.
 
TheIrradiatedWaffle said:
Bru, did you not hear me?


I never said the USA DID NOT IMPERIALIZE I SAID, THEY DIDNT DO IT LIKE EUROPEANS DID.  That was my entire point. I'm not hear to argue about whether or not you did. You started this by saying the USA imperialized, so I couldn't  really argue against imperializism. I simply pointed out the USA doesn't rely on imperialism the way Europe does and argued that the Mexican American war wasn't imperialism. Looking over it, I was wrong, cause on another topic, I was right, the USA in the Mexican American war was a different imperialism. Europe did New imperialism, USA did old imperialism.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Imperialism


So yes, while it was imperialism, its not the same thing, it never was. It'd be silly to say it was, cause thatd mean the USA getting the land west of the missippii from UK and Lousinanna from France is the same as You know, the colonization of Africa. And no, the starvation was the UK's attempt to hold the front they were fighting in Asia, so they sent food away from India.


All I've been trying to shoiw is, the majority of USA's Imperialism wasn't about the exploitation of natives.


I never said we didn't. And please, we know. if we forget, someone will remind us


lel
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What do you mean they didn't Imperialization like the Europeans did? THAT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.


Imperialism is spreading influence through diplomacy or military. Genocide isn't Imperialism, it's government. Their's only really two ways to go about imperialisn- via diplomats or conquering land. Any nation that imperialized did it that way.


Both your links are useless and didny explain anything besides what I have told you... Their is no "old or new" Imperialism.  Imperialism is Imperialism. It started as soon as the Europeans came to the Americas.


Ever head if the "civilizing mission"? Or "Social Darwinism"? Or "Nationalism"? That's some of the causes for imperialism. The same ones used by the US and the rest of Europe and Japan. I'm not saying the US did anything bad but to say the US went about imperialism any different form Europeans is wrong.


In the Opium wars or wars in Asia or Africa where the nations cut off their hands and shit, that wasn't imperialism. That was just prejudice and racism against them. How we drove away Natives and Mexicans from our land repeatedly? That was prejudice now Imperialism.

High Moon said:
You guys decimated entire cultures, Only reason USA doesn't get blamed that much is because admitedly History is writen by victors.
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That can not be more true. The same goes for any country. We only teach the good things about the country and sugar coat the bad. It's not just the US but any country that exists and has schools.
 
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