The implications of the Essence Flow charm[2nd E]

[Sorrow]

So we have this charm (Essence Flow) that allows you to use the abilities dice adders without that use counting as a charm. The question is: Can this use add dice in a roll of another charm?


Could I use iron skin concentration and increase the stamina+resistance pool I roll for the charm?


When I release Blood of Boiling oil can I increase my charisma +occult dice pool to gain more successes for this spell’s effect?


Can I increase the dice pool of Wyld shaping Teqnique with the Lore Essence Flow?

 

[wordman]

So we have this charm (Essence Flow) that allows you to use the abilities dice adders without that use counting as a charm. The question is: Can this use add dice in a roll of another charm?

Yes, presuming that charm is making use of that ability.

Could I use iron skin concentration and increase the stamina+resistance pool I roll for the charm?

Yes. In essence, it allows you to treat the three excellencies as if they were in a combo with the charm you are activating that turn, but without having to know that specific combo and without spending the willpower.

When I release Blood of Boiling oil can I increase my charisma +occult dice pool to gain more successes for this spell’s effect?

If you had Occult Essence Flow, yes. [Edit: This advice turns out to suck. See below.]

Can I increase the dice pool of Wyld shaping Teqnique with the Lore Essence Flow?

Yes.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

I think you can use it with a normally uncomboable charm (an Essence 4 charm needs to be good for something), but not with sorcery.


 Why? Innate powers are still voluntary, reflexive (and sometimes, not even that) actions--which are specifically banned while spellcasting.

 

[Sorrow]

Cool! This can be put to great use with many charms.

I think you can use it with a normally uncomboable charm (an Essence 4 charm needs to be good for something), but not with sorcery.
 Why? Innate powers are still voluntary, reflexive (and sometimes, not even that) actions--which are specifically banned while spellcasting.

I agree but you increase your dice pool after you have have cast the spell.


You cast the spell and when you strike someone with your bare hands you increase your dice pool...um now that i am thinking about it, you don't need essence flow to do it but just any normal exellency charm

 

[wordman]

Innate powers are still voluntary' date=' reflexive (and sometimes, not even that) actions--which are specifically banned while spellcasting.[/quote']
Interesting. The relevant rules seem to be these:

• The 1st and 2nd Excellencies (which Essence Flow allows the invocation of) can be invoked "when making a roll based on the relevant Ability".
  
• The 3rd Excellency is used "after making a roll based on the relevant Ability". Neither of these statements contain any riders for timing or applicability.
  
• Essence flow allows the use of excellencies "as innate powers rather than Charms. This means that the character can use them even with a Combo that does not contain them or when she has already used a Charm for an action. However, she cannot use them out of place on the order of combat actions (see p. 145), nor may she apply the same Charm repeatedly to a single roll."
  
• While shaping sorcery, a sorceror "cannot use Charms or Combos, including reflexive Charms. He cannot take voluntary reflexive actions, such as speech, Move or Dash. He can benefit from the established effects of ongoing or permanent Charms, and he canâ€â€as a special exception to the rule on reflexive actionsâ€â€activate his anima."
  
• During the Cast Sorcery action "the character still cannot use Charms or Combos, including reflexive Charms. He still cannot take voluntary reflexive actions. He still benefits from the established effects of ongoing or permanent Charms."
  
• Using Essence Flow, the "effects are the effects of a Charm used by the character in all ways, save that they can be used with other Charms from the Ability without being placed in a Combo." Which means they do not have any special timing characteristics, among other things.

So, it seems to me that, while you could argue that Essence Flow is an "ongoing" effect, SiD is correct in that it can't augment sorcery tests. The first five bulleted items make a strong case for this, but the last one, I think, really puts the nail in the coffin for arguing otherwise.


So, ignore what I said above in my first post regarding sorcery. I was wrong.

 

[Sorrow]

Yes I think you are right, you can't use essence flow while using sorcery.


2 questions though:


Can you use any excellency charm to augment a sorcery effect after you have cast the spell? Like after you have cast blood of boiling oil at the turn you make the attack to discharge it you can increase your dice pool.


Can you use anima powers while casting sorcery?

 

[Silence In Daylight]

For a 'held' sorcery effect, where the dice roll occurs later, I don't see why Essence Flow wouldn't work.


 Anima powers most certainly fall under voluntary, reflexive powers.

 

[wordman]

Can you use anima powers while casting sorcery?

Anima powers are specifically mentioned as being an exception to the rule of reflexive actions in the Shape Sorcery rules.

 

[sumocat]

During our playtest, the issue of using Essence Flow to augment sorcery did come up and the answer at the time was that, because it is a permanent enhancement of the character's abilities, its use was allowed. That may have changed (maybe because I asked), but the text presented here does not dispute the compatibility. Used to supplement a roll, Essence Flow is not an action in terms of game mechanics.

 

[wordman]

the text presented here does not dispute the compatibility

I think my last bullet point above pretty clearly does. If the effects that Essence flow allows are "exactly" like charms in "every" way except for Comboing, that would include charm timing.

 

[sumocat]

the text presented here does not dispute the compatibility

I think my last bullet point above pretty clearly does. If the effects that Essence flow allows are "exactly" like charms in "every" way except for Comboing, that would include charm timing.

Right, the effects are the same but the Charm is permanent (or maybe that changed).


Also, at the time, it was thought that this would help balance the fact that Lunars have sorcery-compatible dice-adders, but maybe they'll take that away instead.

 

[wordman]

Right, the effects are the same but the Charm is permanent

Essence Flow is permanent, but the effects being invoked are the Excellencies, which are not.

 

[Quorlox]

So, it seems to me that, while you could argue that Essence Flow is an "ongoing" effect, SiD is correct in that it can't augment sorcery tests.

I'd allow it to augment a sorcery tests.  Sorcerors should be able to boost their Occult Ability when casting spells and a permanent Charm that makes the Excellencies innate abilities seems like a good way to do it.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

So, why not write a charm that does what you want...


 ...instead of making a published charm do what you want?


 Call it Essence 5+, [Ability] 5+, with Essence Flow [Ability] and all three Excellencies for the prereqs. Give the charm a one-scene duration for a specific effect--First, Second, or Third--to be applied on all [Ability] rolls.

 

[Quorlox]

So, why not write a charm that does what you want...

I don't think it requires a new Charm; the published ones are just fine.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

But reflexive innate abilities--outside of anima abilities (thanks for the catch, wordman)--are specifically barred during shaping sorcery.


 I know, you think that this shouldn't be the case. Okay; can you convince me with supporting arguments why canon is inferior to your position?

 

[Solfi]

I agree with you SiD. I think it is as you suggest, and I think that is the way it should be.


...I am assuming we are entering into the realms of conjecture and discussion of houserule options, and not a "canon is broken, it should be like this"-thing.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

Just to get the obligatory threadjacking out of the way...


 Solfi, did you ever get OS his 'May barbarians...' latin quote?

 

[Solfi]

Erghk. I completely forgot about that... Could you reiterate it from memory, or do I have to do the whole search thingie?

 

[sumocat]

But reflexive innate abilities--outside of anima abilities (thanks for the catch, wordman)--are specifically barred during shaping sorcery.
I know, you think that this shouldn't be the case. Okay; can you convince me with supporting arguments why canon is inferior to your position?

Actually "reflexive innate abilities" are not specifically barred, as the text states "reflexive voluntary actions" and abilities are not necessarily actions. In game terms, an action is just that, an action, and adding dice to a roll is not an action. The relevant text is the part that bars the use of Charms while casting a spell. It does, however, allow the established effects of permanent Charms and Essence Flow is permanent. The key word here is "established", which I suspect was included to answer the question we ran across during testing. This leads me to now believe it is disallowed.


Pity. Essence Flow had come up as a reason why Death of Obsidian Butterflies didn't need to be beefed up. So now it's just the quantity vs. quality angle. And I guess we'll see if and how the Lunar imbalance is addressed.

 

[Quorlox]

I know, you think that this shouldn't be the case. Okay; can you convince me with supporting arguments why canon is inferior to your position?

Because it makes sense.  A Solar sorceror should be able to augment their casting with dice eventually and a Charm that grants Excellencies as innate abilities seems like a good candidate.  


But, since this may not convince you, I skimmed the book and came up with some additional stuff.  


The Cast Sorcery action is limitedby several things:  "The character still cannot use Charms or Combos, including reflexive Charms.  He still cannot take voluntary reflexive actions."  But, the limitations are not absolute: "He still benefits from the established effects of ongoing or permanent Charms."  


Essence Flow is a Permanent Charm.  In the bulleted points above, there was discussion of how the activation of the Excellencies behaved based on the description within (Ability) Essence Flow, but no mention was made of the definition of a Permanent Charm (p. 183 just in case you're as unfamiliar with this book as I am).  


"Permanent Charms permanently enhance the character's capabilities.  The effect cannot be dispelled, and it has no cost to maintain.  Most permanent Charms require the character to spend Essence to take full advantage of their effects, but doing so does not count as a Charm or an action."  


Since Essence Flow is a permanent Charm and activating such Charms, which in this case means spending Essence for an Excellency, does NOT count as an action, I don't see why it would be forbidden.  The restrictions on sorcery focus on what actions are not allowed, but I think non-actions would be allowed.

 

[memesis]

You have a bodyguard who follows you everywhere.  He is a permanent effect.  If some mugger tries to jack you on the street, he pulls out his 9 and regulates.


You walk into a club which forbids the use of guns.  Your bodyguard is still with you.  Except that he can't pull his piece now.  The permanent effect remains.  The benefits which that permanent effect provides may still be individually outlawed in specific scenarios.

 

[Quorlox]

You have a bodyguard who follows you everywhere.  He is a permanent effect.

But the bodyguard is not a permanent Charm...

 

[Fruan]

You have a bodyguard who follows you everywhere.  He is a permanent effect.

But the bodyguard is not a permanent Charm...

Neither are the Excellencies.


Essence flow is, sure. But the Excellencies are still instant duration reflexive abilities.

 

[Persell]

I'd allow the sorcerors in my games to enhance their dice rolls with that charm. Why? Cause it sounds like good fun and I can't see it unbalance anything. You can argue alot about the technicalities whether this is an ongoing established effect or not but in the end... does it hurt anyone? nah, cause the other spellslingers will do the same and sorcery is combat wise not that useful anyway.


I will see how I handle rituals and other spells where the casting takes more than one scene but I can't see a few extra dice and successes in death of obsidian butterflies hurting anyone especially with perfect defenses being pretty damn cheap these days.