The Black Sun [Earthdawn Interest Check] [Forum] [Dice]

[SephirothSage]

Well- from what I read on the Nethermancer.... their Focus is Knowledge, Personal Power and Gain, and never admitting they where ever wrong. Holding themselves above.


Meanwhile, Horror Stalkers are on a Hellish Revenge quest and willing to sacrifice anything and everything to slaughter as many horrors as they can before they die horribly themselves.


I don't really see the conflict.

 

[PirateLexi]

So whose shoulder does the tiny illusionist (or possibly elementalist) get to sit on?

 

[Crocodile]

Heh, I used their old Book of Horrors for my Shadowrun game. Made the players face off a crazy religious cult under the control of the Artificer.


Gift Giver is another favorite horror. I'm going to use him next somehow...

 

[SephirothSage]

I wouldn't mind having my shoulder sat upon.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

That is about how it was even way back in 1st ed.
The thing with some Earthdawn ST is that they frown on random selections of Disciplines in Earthdawn--more so than any other game you Discipline is not just a class it is who you are, part of you Name if you will (check out the fluff). Cthulhu might take a different view but in my games A Nethermaner-Horror Stalker would be a nigh impossible sell becasue the Dispense are very opposed in goals and styles. In fact Multi-Discipline Characters are *extremely* rare (I think the 1st Ed. book even says so as I recall) , which is part of why everyone loves Versatility so much.


Versatility *is* way cool. But that is OK if I can't get dibs on a human, and Elf or Windling could be doable for that extra sweet Krama Step. Yeah Versatility is a wicked ability but you forgo the cool stuff other races have. The other huge mistake I have seen human characters make in the game is to dump way to much into Versatility to get all the cool abilities they see and then they never go up in circle--which is really bad for those that don't know.


The link you gave looks cool, I hope they do more with Pattern Items, in our old games the STs would try to come up with cool abilities as you wove new thread other than just step increases or extra armor and stuff. The increses are cool but we linked to come up with stuff that made the items more individual and unique.

No, I don't really frown on most Disciplines, even if some of them are terribly narrow in their use and scope (hello, Boatman). And they are a rare bunch. The game I was in years and years ago took a while for multis to pop up. And this was after a LONG time running. That said, it can happen. I have no qualms with it happening. I've just seen Versatility beaten into the dirt with abuse before, so I get gun shy with too many Humans. We'll figure out who really wants to roll Human and then divvy it from there. Pretty sure it may be just you and Seph for now. Indeed.


And Panda has let it be known on the forums that much and more will be done with them. Especially bringing them in line with the actual rules to build Items. I can't wait for that myself. The more unique items will show up in the Companion. And he said rules will be hashed out for new abilities to give items more unique flair.

 

[hellrazoromega]

Well- from what I read on the Nethermancer.... their Focus is Knowledge, Personal Power and Gain, and never admitting they where ever wrong. Holding themselves above.
Meanwhile, Horror Stalkers are on a Hellish Revenge quest and willing to sacrifice anything and everything to slaughter as many horrors as they can before they die horribly themselves.


I don't really see the conflict.

Not a conflict in what they do but how they go about it. It is more they way I see the Disciplines--it is a long sorted story.

[QUOTE="Cthulhu_Wakes]No, I don't really frown on most Disciplines, even if some of them are terribly narrow in their use and scope (hello, Boatman). And they are a rare bunch. The game I was in years and years ago took a while for multis to pop up. And this was after a LONG time running. That said, it can happen. I have no qualms with it happening. I've just seen Versatility beaten into the dirt with abuse before, so I get gun shy with too many Humans. We'll figure out who really wants to roll Human and then divvy it from there. Pretty sure it may be just you and Seph for now. Indeed.
And Panda has let it be known on the forums that much and more will be done with them. Especially bringing them in line with the actual rules to build Items. I can't wait for that myself. The more unique items will show up in the Companion. And he said rules will be hashed out for new abilities to give items more unique flair.

[/QUOTE]
Cthulhu has not issue with them obviously--which is all good.


Yeah we did not see multi's for a very long time in out games either. I will caution those that plan multi's even down the road to look at Disciplines with a fair amount of overlap in Talents, if not you will lag behind in Circle and that can hurt--Earthdawn is not like other games in the respect that splitting you Legend (XP) among too many Talents will is not great (sort of like what I said about Versatility). The unique way you go up in Circle (Kinda like levels) in this game is such that it gets harder as you get higher, (not only does the Legend cost go up but you need more talents equal to the level you are going too as you get higher---unless they have changed that in 3rd) if you are spreading that between very different Talent lists you can find you self several Circles behind everyone else. this game you can be come a Jack of all Trades and Master of none with a quickness.

 

[hellrazoromega]

Heh, I used their old Book of Horrors for my Shadowrun game. Made the players face off a crazy religious cult under the control of the Artificer.
Gift Giver is another favorite horror. I'm going to use him next somehow...

Lol I'm running a Shadowrun game now--an I love injecting Earthdawn stuff into my SR games

 

[SephirothSage]

See- I was thinking pure Flavor and Story- I have no idea how this game's stat systems work, yet, you know..?

 

[hellrazoromega]

See- I was thinking pure Flavor and Story- I have no idea how this game's stat systems work, yet, you know..?

Yeah no worries. Unless it had changed, to go to Circle 2 you have to have 5 talents at rank two, to go to 3 you have to have 6 at rank 3, the 7 at 4 and so on. All the while the cost of increasing a talent goes up Ranks 1-3 are 1-300 Legend after that it ramps up, each Rank is the cost of the previous two ranks added together So 4 is 500, 5 is 800, 6 is 1,300.... When you add all that up, unless you Talent lists are *very* similar it get way tough really fast to not stick yo one Discipline. Read the fluff on Namegivers and why Adepts are so important an unique and you may see story reasons to stick to a single Discipline as well. Not that I am against Multi-Disciplines--My favorite ED character ever (one of my favorite characters overall in fact) was one, it's just that if you do it you *really* need to plan ahead.

 

[SephirothSage]

See- I was planning to advance mostly in Horror-Stalker, with Nethermancer being... honestly, mostly where he /starts/, and a big part of his Personality- but not the biggest part of his power... if that makes any sense?

 

[hellrazoromega]

Yeah but just so you know some of the talents you need to raise to be an effective Caster are your spell matrixes--they are the things you cast spells from rather than casting them raw--which attracts Horrors in a huge way. In Earthdawn a caster and a non caster class is very hard to do system wise for the reasons I posted above (even though all Adepts are magic users of a sort). I see what you are going for and it sounds cool I'm am just cautioning that you will be spread thin. Dabbling in another Discipline can work--it's just not easy. My advice would be to wait a few circles and then pick up Nethermancer, Maybe using a story along the line of you were training to be a Nethermancer when a Horror killed you mentor, steering you to Horror Stalker---only to make a return to Nehtermancer at a later date. That way you get the flavor without the hassle--the more you learn about the system the more you will see what I mean. Not that I am saying don't do it--just be wary is all .

 

[Panda1]

[QUOTE="Cthulhu_Wakes]Versatility, as of 3rd Ed, works thusly:

• Available only to Human Adepts
  
• Starts at Rank 0
  
• May learn one Talent from another Discipline per rank in Versatility (1-15). No more Talents than Ranks in Versatility.
  
• Pay Legend Points at the same cost as the Discipline and at the rank it learns the Talent (say learning Second Attack from a Swordmaster, who attains that at Eighth Circle (read: level). You pay Eighth Circle Legend Point costs as the Swordmaster would.)
  
• Must be taught the Talent by a member of the Discipline at the appropriate Circle who has the Talent. Training time and cost to learn the Talent are dependent on GM's preference.
  
• Cannot learn a Talent from a Circle greater than your highest Discipline Circle.
  
• Talents gained through Versatility and Versatility itself, do not count toward advancement in consideration of attaining higher Circles in your Discipline.
  
• CAN learn Thread Weaving and Summon Talents other than those of current Discipline (book gives example of Wizard learning and improving Elementalism thread weaving).
  

And then there's the Talent Option boojum. Think that's everything. I have no idea if they'll change anything for 4th Ed.

[/QUOTE]
I can offer a little insight into some of the changes. Versatility is largely the same, though with one key change and one specific effect from modifications to the system. The change is in costs to talents gained through Versatility: they now cost one tier greater than what they would normally. In the above example, you would pay Warden tier (Circles 9-12) rather than Journeyman tier (Circles 5-8) for Second Attack from a Swordmaster. The system effect is related to Karma points. Any talent or ability you gain from a discipline allows Karma use (e.g. discipline talents, talent options, half-magic, free talents, etc.). Anything from outside of a discipline does not allow Karma expenditure, unless specifically called out (e.g. True Shot). This affects Versatility and talents gained through thread items.


Hopefully this helps.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

He appears.

 

[Panda1]

The ritual was performed and the Name invoked no less than three times.

 

[The Dark Wizard]

@Cthulhu_Wakes, Not that I have time to play, but none the less you have shown me something that has piqued my interest and it will be something I most likely explore in the future, most likely starting with the new edition since its supposed to be coming out soon.

 

[hellrazoromega]

I can offer a little insight into some of the changes. Versatility is largely the same, though with one key change and one specific effect from modifications to the system. The change is in costs to talents gained through Versatility: they now cost one tier greater than what they would normally. In the above example, you would pay Warden tier (Circles 9-12) rather than Journeyman tier (Circles 5-:cool: for Second Attack from a Swordmaster. The system effect is related to Karma points. Any talent or ability you gain from a discipline allows Karma use (e.g. discipline talents, talent options, half-magic, free talents, etc.). Anything from outside of a discipline does not allow Karma expenditure, unless specifically called out (e.g. True Shot). This affects Versatility and talents gained through thread items.
Hopefully this helps.

The increased cost is fair I suppose, you are already limited by the fact that if you spend too much on Versatility talents you will never go up in Circle or will do so slowly, so even when I did play humans I used it sparingly. But that lack of Karma use sucks, I'd house rule that out in any games I ran. Karma is such an integral part of the game, I see that as a over-nerfing. I guess some people have had real issues with people abusing Versatility, I myself in many years of playing and running ED have been lucky enough not to have seen it in my games.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Should be about July-ish for pdfs(?), then August for the big launch at GenCon.

 

[hellrazoromega]

[QUOTE="Cthulhu_Wakes]Should be about July-ish for pdfs(?), then August for the big launch at GenCon.

[/QUOTE]
They say if it is one book or two like the last edition was?

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Two.

 

[hellrazoromega]

Damn--well that's gonna be expensive.--OH well at least my B-day is in July, now I know what to ask for.

 

[Panda1]

The increased cost is fair I suppose, you are already limited by the fact that if you spend too much on Versatility talents you will never go up in Circle or will do so slowly, so even when I did play humans I used it sparingly. But that lack of Karma use sucks, I'd house rule that out in any games I ran. Karma is such an integral part of the game, I see that as a over-nerfing. I guess some people have had real issues with people abusing Versatility, I myself in many years of playing and running ED have been lucky enough not to have seen it in my games.

The Karma use is not actually a nerf. The distinction between discipline talents and talent options has largely been removed. As such, Karma costs have also been removed, except for some edge cases (see True Shot). The ability to use Karma is explicitly a function of an adept's discipline. To be fair, the increased costs for Versatility are a nerf. There was a point in the design where it was important to decide how the new Karma structure interacts with Versatility (and by extension, talents from thread items). This decision was made to maintain the importance of disciplines and their role in the game. This means Versatility is not as good as actually learning the talent through a discipline, but it still allows you to pick up the choice talents without the rest of the hassle. Swordmasters with Air Dance and Crushing Blow are... a thing.


In the end, it is everyone's game to play as they see fit. Don't like it? Change it. My goal is just to explain the thought process behind various decisions so they seem less arbitrary.

 

[hellrazoromega]

The Karma use is not actually a nerf. The distinction between discipline talents and talent options has largely been removed. As such, Karma costs have also been removed, except for some edge cases (see True Shot). The ability to use Karma is explicitly a function of an adept's discipline. To be fair, the increased costs for Versatility are a nerf. There was a point in the design where it was important to decide how the new Karma structure interacts with Versatility (and by extension, talents from thread items). This decision was made to maintain the importance of disciplines and their role in the game. This means Versatility is not as good as actually learning the talent through a discipline, but it still allows you to pick up the choice talents without the rest of the hassle. Swordmasters with Air Dance and Crushing Blow are... a thing.
In the end, it is everyone's game to play as they see fit. Don't like it? Change it. My goal is just to explain the thought process behind various decisions so they seem less arbitrary.

Interesting, I live under a rock, so I only just heard about the new edition when Chtulhu announced this game, so I will have to look over the new Karma rules and how they interact to see if I like them before I make a judgement. As an old ED player since the 1st Ed. I can't say if it will be a change I will be able to stomach (me being an old curmudgeon who sometimes does not like change). That said I am always willing to give things a try to see if I do like them--and I am occasionally surprised, so I guess I'll have to see the new rules as a whole to see how the entire eco-system works together.

 

[SephirothSage]

I heard a Houseruling for Dwarfs mentioned on your Site, Panda, but was Unable to find said houseruling.


Uh... can you give me Directions to it? xD

 

[hellrazoromega]

For the limited number of humans allowed will any of the sub-races be allowed such as Cathan or Vorst?

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Will judge that as we see the new Human spread. And those houserules @SephirothSage are halfway down this page: http://pandagaminggrove.blogspot.com/2012/09/earthdawn-part-10-house-and-optional.html And we may see them as standard in 4th, if they chose to fix that oversight.