Samiel
One Thousand Club
I'm suprised the two parts of this post don't cancel one another out in an explosion of heat and gamma rays.Stillborn said:
Starting Characters and Minimaxing
- Thread starter Vanman
- Start date
Samiel
One Thousand Club
I agree with obsidian: They will be cripples.
Looking at the training times for attributes takes the edge off the allure of single-dot attributes. Unless the first session is a prelude running into months of downtime, you will have to endure several sessions of below-par performance.
On the other hand, I am guilty of doing the same thing, and it is a legitimate way of creating a character as long as your intentions are pure. I, in my defence, had no minmaxing munchkin intent: I was playing a foppish Eclipse. But I still took Stamina 1 at character creation, because I wanted value for my XP, and it took a single session to recoup the loss, as our ST didn't bother with training times for the most part.
And there is nothing wrong with taking a slightly more ST-central tack to Character Creation. I did it halfway myself: After months of play as mortals, I exalted my players in a surprise Exalting holiday special, and I gave them their starting charms. I get minimal complaints.
In fact, I find that taking a strong role in CC helps arrange a party well: If two players want to play night castes, you give one more larceny charms, and one more stealth charms, ensuring that they don't step on each other's toes as often.
To denounce this as an invalid or patronising method of STing is short sighted. It's different, that's all.
Looking at the training times for attributes takes the edge off the allure of single-dot attributes. Unless the first session is a prelude running into months of downtime, you will have to endure several sessions of below-par performance.
On the other hand, I am guilty of doing the same thing, and it is a legitimate way of creating a character as long as your intentions are pure. I, in my defence, had no minmaxing munchkin intent: I was playing a foppish Eclipse. But I still took Stamina 1 at character creation, because I wanted value for my XP, and it took a single session to recoup the loss, as our ST didn't bother with training times for the most part.
And there is nothing wrong with taking a slightly more ST-central tack to Character Creation. I did it halfway myself: After months of play as mortals, I exalted my players in a surprise Exalting holiday special, and I gave them their starting charms. I get minimal complaints.
In fact, I find that taking a strong role in CC helps arrange a party well: If two players want to play night castes, you give one more larceny charms, and one more stealth charms, ensuring that they don't step on each other's toes as often.
To denounce this as an invalid or patronising method of STing is short sighted. It's different, that's all.
Obsidian Soul
Member
Just enforce the training times. Â Low stats are bad, but they aren't crippling, they just make your life a living hell. Â I think any player of mine that came with a Sta 1 character is a fool, but it can be compensated with by having three levels in both Endurance and Resistance. Â The character, however, still has no natural lethal soak, so she should stay the hell out of any fight.
As for minimaxing in general, I just take that into account in the game. Â Minimaxing is just another name for overspecialization, and my games require a wide variety of rolls, not just the simple hack and slash. Â I tend to award my players for being clever and part of being clever is to avoid unnecessary fights. Â Since I do not use the extras rules, every fight is potentially lethal, and a small gang can beat the crap out of a lone Solar if she isn't careful. Â I like a little realism in my games, and I hate the idea that my NPCs are just cannon fother.
As for minimaxing in general, I just take that into account in the game. Â Minimaxing is just another name for overspecialization, and my games require a wide variety of rolls, not just the simple hack and slash. Â I tend to award my players for being clever and part of being clever is to avoid unnecessary fights. Â Since I do not use the extras rules, every fight is potentially lethal, and a small gang can beat the crap out of a lone Solar if she isn't careful. Â I like a little realism in my games, and I hate the idea that my NPCs are just cannon fother.
Silence In Daylight
One Thousand Club
 Problem with this is that the descriptions you're suggesting are closer to 0 dots than 1 dot. Considering that the human average is 2 dots, having only 1 means that you're worse than average, but not necessarily incompetent.
 If you want to impose a stat minimum of 2 dots, just tell your players so. They'll appreciate you for being upfront about it.
 As a closing note, you've never suffered through a campaign in which a character constantly flaunted their incompetence to the great annoyance of all...
Obsidian Soul
Member
Have to agree with SID.
to be FAIR I min maxed on my very first white wolf CS
My silver fang theruge had 5 pure breed, 5 APP, 1 ST, etc etc.
NOT VERY good I'll admit.
I got more realisic with subsequent CS's.
my suggestion is that traits of 1 should be treated as 2 (or possibly higher) FOR PURPOSES OF ADVANCEMENT only.
because BE FAIR
it might take a lot more work to make a ugly girl passable, as to make a pretty one Dazzling.
(Just my 2 cents)
My silver fang theruge had 5 pure breed, 5 APP, 1 ST, etc etc.
NOT VERY good I'll admit.
I got more realisic with subsequent CS's.
my suggestion is that traits of 1 should be treated as 2 (or possibly higher) FOR PURPOSES OF ADVANCEMENT only.
because BE FAIR
it might take a lot more work to make a ugly girl passable, as to make a pretty one Dazzling.
(Just my 2 cents)
wordman
Two Thousand Club
Most of the relpies here are social fixes, which is fine. If you're looking for a mechanical solution however, there are some options. (Aside: mechanical solutions have only two advantages over the other solutions mentioned here: they are guarenteed to be equitable and players can use them ahead of time without ST adjudication. In any group worth playing with, neither of these advantages is really that compelling.)
Anyway, the basic problem Exalted (and some other games, like Shadowrun) has is that it uses a linear point system at creation and a triangular point system (where the cost of improving a trait is based on its current cost) after that. This generates what the business I'm in now calls "arbitrage opportunities", where a point in the hand at generation is worth more or less (compared to the equivilant xp cost later) depending on how it is spent.
The mechanical solution: don't do this. Instead, use the same cost system for starting and improving a character. Pick either bonus points or XP and stick with it. If using XP, you have to make up costs for things that you can buy at the start, but don't improve with xp, such as backgrounds. Bonus points is easier in this respect, but character improvement beomes linear, which you may not want.
Some entries in the wiki try to build such systems. This one used bonus points for everything. I'm not sure anyone's published an attempt to build starting characters with XP only, but it wouldn't be hard to reverse engineer some characters to figure out a decent starting xp pool. I've never used such systems, so I've no idea if they are any good. Well, not true. I've never used such systems in Exalted. Shadowrun had the BeCKS system, which worked pretty well.
Even if you use such a system, of course, you run into another arbitrage opportunity: training time. If you are a stickler about training time, points spent up front on attributes are "worth more" than spending the same points on abilities, since training attributes after character generation takes way longer.
Anyway, the basic problem Exalted (and some other games, like Shadowrun) has is that it uses a linear point system at creation and a triangular point system (where the cost of improving a trait is based on its current cost) after that. This generates what the business I'm in now calls "arbitrage opportunities", where a point in the hand at generation is worth more or less (compared to the equivilant xp cost later) depending on how it is spent.
The mechanical solution: don't do this. Instead, use the same cost system for starting and improving a character. Pick either bonus points or XP and stick with it. If using XP, you have to make up costs for things that you can buy at the start, but don't improve with xp, such as backgrounds. Bonus points is easier in this respect, but character improvement beomes linear, which you may not want.
Some entries in the wiki try to build such systems. This one used bonus points for everything. I'm not sure anyone's published an attempt to build starting characters with XP only, but it wouldn't be hard to reverse engineer some characters to figure out a decent starting xp pool. I've never used such systems, so I've no idea if they are any good. Well, not true. I've never used such systems in Exalted. Shadowrun had the BeCKS system, which worked pretty well.
Even if you use such a system, of course, you run into another arbitrage opportunity: training time. If you are a stickler about training time, points spent up front on attributes are "worth more" than spending the same points on abilities, since training attributes after character generation takes way longer.
Zaramis
Senior Member
To speak about what was said in Page 1, about dotting your players' characters.
I always used to let my players do everything on their character sheet themselves, but in a game not so long time ago, they protested against this and turned the control over to me.
My players decided in unison that they didn't want to see their dots, nor roll their own dice. They wanted to play the story, and know "Im really good at this" or "Im not so good at this". Also, they wouldn't know how much EXP they had, so they could say "I start training on this particular subject" and I would subtract the hidden exp whenever it's enough to raise their stat.
We havent started the game yet, but I have really high hopes for it
I always used to let my players do everything on their character sheet themselves, but in a game not so long time ago, they protested against this and turned the control over to me.
My players decided in unison that they didn't want to see their dots, nor roll their own dice. They wanted to play the story, and know "Im really good at this" or "Im not so good at this". Also, they wouldn't know how much EXP they had, so they could say "I start training on this particular subject" and I would subtract the hidden exp whenever it's enough to raise their stat.
We havent started the game yet, but I have really high hopes for it
Flagg
The Most Electrifying Man in Sports Entertainment
Sounds like a cool idea for everyone except the ST, who gets to do ALL the work.
-S
-S
Jakk Bey
One Thousand Club
Zaramis--Nothing like players abdicating all responsibility, eh? Â
So, do the players just keep track of their Charms in their heads? Â How about Combos? Â
While this might sound like an interesting idea, to someone who is just starting out playing, masquerading as "a higher plane of role-playing" it just shifts the burden onto the ST to hold the players' hands and babysit them. Â If players can't suspend their disbelief enough to play their characters without "breaking through the fourth wall" of the character sheet, then maybe they need to be playing something else, because the process is supposed to be cooperative, not "I'll just talk while you take care of the other stuff..."
Then again, I'm a cranky old man who wants to cut down on my paperwork everywhere I can.
It just sounds like your players are looking for excuses to shift off the duties to you, and it sounds hardly fair. Â It turns into an elitist sort of thing, and it hampers players because they can't really plan, they can only hope--which is fine in real life, because you often don't know if you can make the leap across a gully until you try, but an RPG isn't real life, and trying to get "more realisitic" in that sense kind of defeats the purpose of playing giant, mythic figures.
Again, cranky old man. Â Give your damn players their characters sheets, tell them to start doing more Stunts, or you're going to dock them XP, and to put on some damn pants that fit right. Â And keep 'em off my damn lawn.
So, do the players just keep track of their Charms in their heads? Â How about Combos? Â
While this might sound like an interesting idea, to someone who is just starting out playing, masquerading as "a higher plane of role-playing" it just shifts the burden onto the ST to hold the players' hands and babysit them. Â If players can't suspend their disbelief enough to play their characters without "breaking through the fourth wall" of the character sheet, then maybe they need to be playing something else, because the process is supposed to be cooperative, not "I'll just talk while you take care of the other stuff..."
Then again, I'm a cranky old man who wants to cut down on my paperwork everywhere I can.
It just sounds like your players are looking for excuses to shift off the duties to you, and it sounds hardly fair. Â It turns into an elitist sort of thing, and it hampers players because they can't really plan, they can only hope--which is fine in real life, because you often don't know if you can make the leap across a gully until you try, but an RPG isn't real life, and trying to get "more realisitic" in that sense kind of defeats the purpose of playing giant, mythic figures.
Again, cranky old man. Â Give your damn players their characters sheets, tell them to start doing more Stunts, or you're going to dock them XP, and to put on some damn pants that fit right. Â And keep 'em off my damn lawn.
Zaramis
Senior Member
Actually, it's different.
A very important point is that the game in which we did this was not Exalted at all ( Exalted is a game where I always insist on them doing all the work themselves ). In Exalted we don't need to strive for realism, and can stunt and stuff to get extra dice, and they can plan ahead. It's different and I agree with you all.
The game we did this in, however, was a game of Mage: The Ascension ( or the Awakening, its a mix ). It's a game heavily focused on fantastic realism for us. Most things aren't what they appear to be, and we're playing normal humans for the most part. They are going to be in charge of their Arcana ( what they can do with the spells ), but all other skills and such are handled by me.
I wouldn't have agreed to this if I wasnt part of the group who came up with the idea, and I have nothing against it at all to book-keep this, since it isn't Exalted with essence-pools and combos and such. It's Mage, where we play mostly without dice-rolls, focusing on the story.
A very important point is that the game in which we did this was not Exalted at all ( Exalted is a game where I always insist on them doing all the work themselves ). In Exalted we don't need to strive for realism, and can stunt and stuff to get extra dice, and they can plan ahead. It's different and I agree with you all.
The game we did this in, however, was a game of Mage: The Ascension ( or the Awakening, its a mix ). It's a game heavily focused on fantastic realism for us. Most things aren't what they appear to be, and we're playing normal humans for the most part. They are going to be in charge of their Arcana ( what they can do with the spells ), but all other skills and such are handled by me.
I wouldn't have agreed to this if I wasnt part of the group who came up with the idea, and I have nothing against it at all to book-keep this, since it isn't Exalted with essence-pools and combos and such. It's Mage, where we play mostly without dice-rolls, focusing on the story.
Zaramis
Senior Member
Also, they have character sheets. The character sheets are just more about personality, backgrounds, notes they need to know, what formalized spells they have etc. They still have tons of stuff written down, just reduced the mechanics some.
It's an extension of the fact that ST's should roll Perception + Awareness rolls, because the players should never know if they succeeded and there was nothing to be found, or there was something to be found and they just didnt see it.
It's an extension of the fact that ST's should roll Perception + Awareness rolls, because the players should never know if they succeeded and there was nothing to be found, or there was something to be found and they just didnt see it.
Jakk Bey
One Thousand Club
If it works at your table, then have at it. Â I just wouldn't do such a thing. Â
I regularly make rolls for folks, and I use the time honored method of "What's your Perception+Alertness, again?" and then make the roll, and tell them what they find, or don't. Â
I just have bad Amber experiences, and they've left me with an innate distrust of such things. Â Plenty of sessions where the PCs haven't made dice rolls--great sessions too--but I like to have that random element, because often failures lead to even better places than successes.
PC botches her Athletics rolls. Â She falls from a great height, and I give her a chance to recover. Â She does so, taking a decent amount of damage, but battered, she manages to roll into a cave. Â Above her the battle goes on, and the others are too busy to come and get her.
So she forges ahead, limping, but still alive. Â She manages to find a secret enterance to the chamber they were looking for, and her injury triggers a response from the automated systems in the joint, that give her a chance to see how the First Age machinery works, and she figures out how to get it to accept her authorization. Â She bypasses the defenses, and gets Golems to rush to her mates' assistance, and they save the day. Â Huzzah. Â
Might not have thought of such a thing, or a great device like that, without that random element. Â Sometimes the limits and small setbacks create a better story than you plan out, which is why I really like the random element, because it forces me to adjust things as well as the PCs.
Same with fantastic success. Â PCs manage to take out the main villain in one fell swoop. Â He makes a botch, and is killed in the first round. Â
Ho, ho, ho ho! I stab at thee yooooooarrraghhh...oh my stars and garters that stung.*flop*
Yes, I have to scramble a bit, and that's where the art of the Retcon comes in handy, but the PCs manage to beat the baddy, and make it look easy. Â Now the question is: if the villain was such a clutz, why and what was he entrusted in guarding?
I regularly make rolls for folks, and I use the time honored method of "What's your Perception+Alertness, again?" and then make the roll, and tell them what they find, or don't. Â
I just have bad Amber experiences, and they've left me with an innate distrust of such things. Â Plenty of sessions where the PCs haven't made dice rolls--great sessions too--but I like to have that random element, because often failures lead to even better places than successes.
PC botches her Athletics rolls. Â She falls from a great height, and I give her a chance to recover. Â She does so, taking a decent amount of damage, but battered, she manages to roll into a cave. Â Above her the battle goes on, and the others are too busy to come and get her.
So she forges ahead, limping, but still alive. Â She manages to find a secret enterance to the chamber they were looking for, and her injury triggers a response from the automated systems in the joint, that give her a chance to see how the First Age machinery works, and she figures out how to get it to accept her authorization. Â She bypasses the defenses, and gets Golems to rush to her mates' assistance, and they save the day. Â Huzzah. Â
Might not have thought of such a thing, or a great device like that, without that random element. Â Sometimes the limits and small setbacks create a better story than you plan out, which is why I really like the random element, because it forces me to adjust things as well as the PCs.
Same with fantastic success. Â PCs manage to take out the main villain in one fell swoop. Â He makes a botch, and is killed in the first round. Â
Ho, ho, ho ho! I stab at thee yooooooarrraghhh...oh my stars and garters that stung.*flop*
Yes, I have to scramble a bit, and that's where the art of the Retcon comes in handy, but the PCs manage to beat the baddy, and make it look easy. Â Now the question is: if the villain was such a clutz, why and what was he entrusted in guarding?
Zaramis
Senior Member
They have that in every other game, they wanted to be rid that for once. They trust me with the random dice rolling for events, and they know it's there. They will still roll for some big important things, but the main point was that they won't have to bother with character sheets, or how much exp it costs to get this thing, or what the odds are of winning this or that 
wordman
Two Thousand Club
I played in a game like this. It was quite cool. Evidently, there was a system in the background of some kind, but none of us knew what it was (might have been GURPS). Occassionally, the GM asked us to to roll dice. In the year or so of playing, I think I rolled a d10. Once. It was sort of a Roman campaign, where the magic system was based largely on will and desire.Zaramis said:
Silence In Daylight
One Thousand Club
If you have the right group of players..or just want to try something different...it can be a blast. While the additional paperwork for the ST can be annoying, the ST can short-hand quite a bit of it. After all, does the ST track xp growth for recurring villains?
Solfi
One Thousand Club
Man oh man I played in a fun game like this. Since we really always use the ST system (even with some other settings at times), we got to create a couple of mortals in the oWoD system.
... we had no idea what we were playing. Our ST had this hella-cool, way dark story going with astral beings, and weird powers manifesting in some of us. Alternate, vaguely dreamlike, realities. Or perhaps they were dreams. It was hard to tell.
First we were thinking Vampire. Then we shifted to Call of Ctulhu (there was some Ctulhu-esque paranormal events, and some previous life experience flashbacks à1920:s asylum. Felt very CoC), until finally we understood that it was a *variation* of Kult. Man, it was a blast. And creepy.
... we had no idea what we were playing. Our ST had this hella-cool, way dark story going with astral beings, and weird powers manifesting in some of us. Alternate, vaguely dreamlike, realities. Or perhaps they were dreams. It was hard to tell.
First we were thinking Vampire. Then we shifted to Call of Ctulhu (there was some Ctulhu-esque paranormal events, and some previous life experience flashbacks à1920:s asylum. Felt very CoC), until finally we understood that it was a *variation* of Kult. Man, it was a blast. And creepy.
Samiel
One Thousand Club
Actually, I find this a funny concept: Your ST may have been simply deciding in his head who he wanted to succeed and at what, to best suit him. And he would then roll some dice and say whether or not you succeeded.wordman said:
Blatant lying for better games. That's a party line I'd like to see more often.
I think these "Blind PC" ideas can really work in some games and with some groups. I don't see it working in a paperwork-intensive game like Exalted, but in something like nWoD, which is pretty fast and easy at everything, it would work a charm.
memesis
One Thousand Club
You don't know paperwork-intensive until you've played Champions (well, Hero).
Flagg
The Most Electrifying Man in Sports Entertainment
My old landlord used to play Rolemaster. Those fuckers didn't have character sheets, they had character binders.
-S
-S
wordman
Two Thousand Club
I'm sure he was. From our point of view it didn't make much difference.Samiel said:
Zaramis
Senior Member
Yeah. If you trust your storyteller, does it matter if he's really rolling the dice or if he isn't? Whatever makes the best story. Sometimes its important, in certain games, to have large random factors. In some games, it isnt important at all.
lowguppy
Junior Member
actually, I think its really important for the players to know that them rolling the dice does make a difference, otherwise, why put the time into making a character sheet? Why have a system at all? Just write up a history and have storytime where the players write the dialogue. Mind you, some sessions end up like this, and they're plenty of fun, but a fight you can't win or can't lose isn't that fun.
I agree completely, I used to play a game where the ST would just make judgement calls as to what happened. I was playing a dexterous MFer. the highest possable, and the ST kept making me lose initiative to her pet monsters. it was annoying, and it totally made me feel as if I had no control over the outcome of the game. just as an example of how it all goes bad.lowguppy said:
