Spell casting and Essence Lending Method

[Thorn Darkblade]

Okay, a question came up in-game recently. While summoning a third-circle demon, the character wanted to pour more motes than he had as his max into the spell to reduce the demon to practiclly nothing. He wanted the other player in the group to use Essence-Lending Method to give him more, but, it says it can't put abovemax essence.


However, the debate that came up was when exactly the motes are spent, cause, if part of the cost was spent during the summoning, and then another part during the binding, the other character could partially recharge him between the two steps.


Should this be allowed? Next session could be quite interesting if he can't bind the demon...

 

[Persell]

The motes are spent all at once and they can't use essence lending method to support a spellcasting that is happening at that very moment.


Ask yourself: Would third circle demons ever break free if this was possible? No, probably not.


Is it exciting that third circle demons never break free? No.


Ergo, you can't spend the motes this way.

 

[skafte]

I have always assumed that it was possible to fill a person with essence while he uses it, kind of having a external harddrive to a computer. Else some of the bigger spells would be impossible to use outside the lab. Like Third-Circle Demon Summoning and that erase a shadowland with solar light.

 

[The zombie cat]

My interpretation would be no. the essence is spent in one go it must all be available in an instant


Although there is an artifact in the abyssal book (1st ed) that can store motes and make them readily available. They cant be removed from the death lands without disintegrating but we allow les efficient (lower capacity) ones to be built for use in creation.


Edward

 

[Trueblood]

I have always assumed that it was possible to full a person with essence while he uses it, kind of having a external harddrive to a computer. Else some of the bigger spells would be impossible to use outside the lab. Like Third-Circle Demon Summoning and that erase a shadowland with solar light.

I'm going have to go with Safim and The Zombie Cat on this one. Also, given the power and impact of the spells you mentioned, they shouldn't be minor undertakings but rather the realm of either ancient (high essence) or dedicated and focused (perhaps high essence pools because of Immanent Solar Glory or Essence Plethora in the case of Eclipses) sorcerers, preferably both.

 

[Persell]

An essence 5 solar can have 25+75 motes availible to him without immanent solar glory which adds another 50 motes to that.


Solar Sanctuary is probably one of the most expensive spells around with 70 motes and that is pretty much doable for an experienced solar circle sorceror even at essence 5, if we assume lower virtues than in my example above a solar will still be able to pay that spell all by himself, so I don't think the resort to essence lending method was intended by the gamedesigners.

 

[Fruan]

Bear in mind that there are a plethora of artifacts that act as extra motes in a can.


I once made the mistake of allowing an Abyssal with Celestial circle sorcery to use his Liege background to borrow an artifact 4 essence-store gem thingy for the night of the new moon, allowing him to summon the biggest, baddest second circle demon imaginable with little chance of failure.


"Mistake" might be too harsh a word for it - it turned out rather fun for all involved, but it was an incredible boost to the circles abilities, with no cost. If ever this comes up again, I'll make sure the owner of the artifact asks to receive it back fully charged

 

[The zombie cat]

@ Safim


Considering a solar with virtues of 2,3,4,5 (a farley normal spread) and willpower 9 (high but not to the point of being inhuman) and essence 5. That gives 91 motes total.


Demon of the third circle costs 40 motes + 10 motes per dice you wish to deny the target.


The solars dice pool for the opposed roll is 14, the demons is 18 (the lowest it can be), if the solar burns his full essence pool this goes down to 13, advantage solar but not enough. You max motes solar has 100 motes, reducing the demons pool another dice, a 2 dice advantage is still quite dangerous.


While the use of esense lending method is not appropriate the game dose allow many ways to get more motes for this purpose, immanent solar glory, essence containing jem, hearth stone of sorcery. To name 3 of the top of my head. And there is ample reason for a character to feel they need the extra advantage.


@ Fruan


in that situation I probably would not only have required the gem be returned fully charged but handed it over empty, this however is practically no limitation as filling them isn’t that difficult.


The acquisition of the demo was not at no cost, it was at the cost of knowing the spell, which has significant prerequisites, and being smart enough to leverage the liege background to reduce the risks, I would have paid an extra XP for that kind of stunt, and promptly increased the threat level to keep things interesting.


Edward

 

[Persell]

@ Safim
Considering a solar with virtues of 2,3,4,5 (a farley normal spread) and willpower 9 (high but not to the point of being inhuman) and essence 5. That gives 91 motes total.


Demon of the third circle costs 40 motes + 10 motes per dice you wish to deny the target.


The solars dice pool for the opposed roll is 14, the demons is 18 (the lowest it can be), if the solar burns his full essence pool this goes down to 13, advantage solar but not enough. You max motes solar has 100 motes, reducing the demons pool another dice, a 2 dice advantage is still quite dangerous.


While the use of esense lending method is not appropriate the game dose allow many ways to get more motes for this purpose, immanent solar glory, essence containing jem, hearth stone of sorcery. To name 3 of the top of my head. And there is ample reason for a character to feel they need the extra advantage.

And your point is? There is a reason the first age Adamant Circle Sorcerors dined together during calibration. Demon of the third circle is an unpredictable and dangerous spell and it is good that way.

 

[Haku1]

A solar shouldn't need such 'cheap' boosts... his companions should be there to play smack down with the demon if it escapes, not do the tantric exchanging of 'essence' as they summon up a big-bad.


Besides, as noted above, a Solar CAN have really large essence pools; immanent solar glory, essence plentora (eclipses), multiple skin-mount heartstones WITH level 5 hearthstones and other fun stuff.


Seriously, I don't see the need for solars to be all sharing of essence. You're a big boy or girl... let the dragonblooded and sidereal wussies share essence, you're tough enough to do it alone.

 

[The zombie cat]

And your point is? There is a reason the first age Adamant Circle Sorcerors dined together during calibration. Demon of the third circle is an unpredictable and dangerous spell and it is good that way.


So says one bit of fluff.


Another talks about star mettle looms connecting the minds of a dozen third circle demons to channel there purified cognition into the mind of a solar. The summoning for this would require at least 3 casters.


My understanding was that the ban on casting demon of the third circle wasn’t about the risk of uncontrolled demons, it was about the risk of them being put to uses the rest of the deliberative would not endorse, at least at some points during eth first age sufficiently large groups of solars worked together to bind large numbers of third sercle demons for a commonly approved of task.


Edward

 

[Persell]

I'm against using ELM in this context, there is a ritual to be performed and only the summoner and the Demon are involved in this, any outside interference and I would consider the circle 'broken' and the demon free to do as he pleases.  If the the other Solar posseses the appropriate spell then they may perform a combination summoning in an attempt to bind the demon, but I'm not sure of the rules on that, if the the other Solar does not possess the appropriate spell and only wants to be there to lend moted he'd just sully the ritual.


And we all hate feeling sullied and unusual, imagine how irritated a demon could get... <ponders>.


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...


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Okay... let's not. <shudders>


Also, in my humblest of opinions, if the Solar in question doesn't have enough Essence to feel safe summoning the demon to the point where he needs to beg for more motes, it's probably in his best interest to leave the demon alone lest the Solar learn the hard way that even the Lawgivers should not fly to close to the sun.

 

[Persell]

what if he has 7 or 8 imbued amalgram aids, to lend him essence or Willpower, how do I stop that?

 

[Jack1]

What if he has 7 or 8 imbued amalgram aids, to lend him essence or Willpower, how do I stop that?

Why do you need to?

 

[The zombie cat]

what if he has 7 or 8 imbued amalgram aids' date=' to lend him essence or Willpower, how do I stop that?[/quote']
How would the essence be transferred, they cant use essence lending tequike any more than solars could.


Amalgams could be used to provide a fast recharge after casting eth spell but if that’s the most powerful trick your players think of with imbue amalgam your getting of light.


Edward

 

[Persell]

For heaven's sake the things are spelled without an "r" in the middle. It's the second or third thread in which you persistently spell it wrong despite people pointing out how it is spelled properly.

 

[Persell]

allwight I lill twie to rememer to spall it prply, frm now no.


Am I funny or, what?"

 

[Kremlin KOA]

For heaven's sake the things are spelled without an "r" in the middle. It's the second or third thread in which you persistently spell it wrong despite people pointing out how it is spelled properly.

who are you referring to?

 

[Persell]

my spelling Amalgam's  as Amalgram's, and I apolagize for that...

 

[Flagg]

Since we're picking on you: You don't use apostrophes to pluralize words. It's "amalgams", not "amalgam's".

 

[Vanman]

But your use of the word "and" has been pretty spot on......


;-)

 

[Persell]

But your use of the word "and" has been pretty spot on......
;-)

Hahahahahahahahaha.

 

[Lord Ben]

I'd allow it.  It turns a mundane die roll into something the entire party can contribute to.   Kind of neat IMHO.


The number of charms you'd need and party coordination makes it kind of neat.


Unless you're running a game where you don't want your party to get 3rd circle demons, then you might want to disallow it.


"As Bob focuses his concentration on harnessing the demon to his will I see a bead of sweat break out on his forehead.  Knowing he could use my assistance I lend him some of my own strength."   Seems exalted enough for me.   It's even a better situation than having 5 buddies armed to the teeth with goremauls standing around waiting to smash it should something bad happen.

 

[memesis]

The spell as written does not seem to let you pour Essence into the casting gradually.


However, nothing stops anyone from creating a variation on the spell that DOES explicitly add Essence over time (and thus let ELM apply).

 

[The zombie cat]

The spell as written does not seem to let you pour Essence into the casting gradually.
However, nothing stops anyone from creating a variation on the spell that DOES explicitly add Essence over time (and thus let ELM apply).

If you did this it should be in some way inferior.


You cant put it up another level so what would you do. Increase the base mote cost would be possible.


Edward