Spell casting and Essence Lending Method

[memesis]

If you did this it should be in some way inferior.

For game-balance purposes, you might argue that.  You could also say that, given the thousands of years of magical research, the schools of sorcery came up with better versions of the spells Brigid (or whoever) originally brought back that dealt with demon summoning, and that those advanced spells were kept under lock and key - explaining why the 'lesser' spells are all that people know today.  I have no problem with this latter approach, because the game balance is then 100% in my hands - if I don't want my PCs having this, they don't have it.


There are other complications that can arise.  You can say that the Essence channeled into the spell is gradual and allows for Essence regeneration to take place, but that means more contested Willpower rolls - giving the demon a better chance to escape.  You can say that Essence given to you by someone whose motives for the summoning don't align with yours will corrupt the ritual.  You could say that multiple casters can cooperate on the spell, but that their hearts and minds must be absolutely unified on the demon's task or it goes free automatically.


You can certainly increase the risk of something disrupting the spell - resisting distraction becomes more difficult, perhaps.


I frankly don't care.  I see Exalted sorcery as something akin to industrial technology in terms of how it is developed and how it works.  Spells that are just flat-out improved versions of other, better-known spells should be possible, and there are all sorts of reasons why they are not also widespread (everyone knows how to make fire; some people know how to make gunpowder; very few people know how to build a nuclear bomb - you figure it out).  If that's the sort of game the ST wants, he should have it.

 

[The zombie cat]

It was stated in the book that the given charms and spells where the result of extensive research and development, it is not possible to design more efficient versions of existing charms and spells.


Ok this was stated for reasons of game balance, so players cant claim they have practiced lots and should get cheaper rates on conmen charms and spells, but I think it should still apply.


One other way you could do it is this.


Multiple casters may work on the spell, each must know the spell, each must spend the willpower and motes to cast the spell but the extra motes spent on reducing the demons dice pool are pooled, only the ritual leader (presumably the guy with the best will+E roles against the demon.


Obviously as the GM you can allow it to be done any whay you want, or not at all. Without changing rules there are a couple of tricks to increase the essence available for summoning, including charms to increase essence capacity, essence containing gems (which requires you to cast the spell in the underworld), and a sidereal martial art that allows you to set up essence wielders as a battery for your use.


Edward

 

[memesis]

It was stated in the book that the given charms and spells where the result of extensive research and development' date=' it is not possible to design more efficient versions of existing charms and spells.[/quote']
That was stated for Charms.  Show me where it says that for spells.

 

[Persell]

It was stated in the book that the given charms and spells where the result of extensive research and development' date=' it is not possible to design more efficient versions of existing charms and spells.[/quote'] Actually I think its stated in the White and Black Treatise that you explicitly can make new versions of existing spells. You just have to go through the trouble of researching and learning the new version. I believe the example was if you weren't happy with Death of Obsidian Butterflies and decided to create Death of Adament Butterflies, or some such, it would be a whole new seperate spell.
Based on that logic I don't see why you couldn't create a new cooperative demon summoning spell. Something to the effect of:


Summon Third Circle Demon, Bound by Solar Glory


Cost: 45+m


Target: Third Circle Demon


                This spell functions exactly as the regular Summon Third Circle Demon spell, except it allows a number of similarly talented Lawgivers to coordinate their efforts in summoning and binding the demon. All participants must know the spell to participate in the ritual.


From here you have two options:


     1) Let every participant add motes to reduce the demons dice pool


     2) Or run it like a coordinated attack where the head caster rolls (Charisma+Occult) at a difficulty of half the number of the group rounded down. This then imposes on the demon a penalty equal to the number of casters. Only the head caster can reduce the demon's dice pool with extra motes.


I like the second option myself, and this can obviously be changed for any level of demon (although I'm not sure why you'd need a group to summon a First Circle demon unless we're talking mortal casters)

 

[Jukashi]

I think there really should be some sort of co-operative spellcasting Sorcery.

 

[Jack1]

I believe for ritual casting you're already allowed to combine efforts.


Dont ask me where I got that idea from though. I'd definitely allow it in my games anyway.

 

[Flagg]

I think it's already easy enough to corn-hole a newly summoned demon. Allowing sorcerers to gang up on them just removes ANY risk of backlash. That's boring.

 

[memesis]

I think it's already easy enough to corn-hole a newly summoned demon. Allowing sorcerers to gang up on them just removes ANY risk of backlash. That's boring.

That's one of the reasons I brought up making the demon's binding depend on the sorcerers' wills being united.  While you can reduce the risk of a Third Circle demon's resisting to close to nil, having competing goals gives you additional room for dramatic contests of wills among sorcerers.

 

[Persell]

Personally I will not allow better versions of existing spells without serious effort on the side of the character. When someone first made a spell he or she invested lots of research time into it and for the spell to become canon (i.e. known to many sorcerors) it had to be quite efficient already. So, yes it is possible, no it is not easy.


Second, I personally do not like the idea of this beefed up version of summoning. Summoning is riskless enough as it is and I think demons should have a realistic chance of breaking free if someone under essence 6 conjures one.

 

[Haku1]

Personally, I have no issue with beefed up spells, if it goes up 1 level.


ie. a beefed-up summoning of first circle demon as a celestial spell. or a beefed up 2nd circle demon as a solar spell.

 

[memesis]

There's other reasons for demon-summoning (specifically) to be a group effort.  Here are a few suggestions:


1. The Yozis might not want a Third Circle demon summoned and controlled, so they might be bolstering its will during the rite.  Woe betide the unfortunate Solar sorcerer who discovers this during Calibration - and what a great way to introduce a major threat into your campaign.  "The demon went on a rampage and killed our mentor, who managed to let us know how it escaped his control."


2. Such demons might have much higher Will + Essence values, or have other innate resistances, that aren't documented in old texts - for whatever reason.


3. In your particular campaign, calling such demons out might require a multi-person ritual, as part of the Chosen's binding on the inhabitants of Malfeas - a deal concocted to ensure that no single Solar sorcerer could become corrupted by power and draw out a major threat to the world.


4. The actual bindings on Malfeas might be weakening in your campaign, meaning that demons could slip free of their bindings (this is the case in a game in which I'm playing).  In such cases, researching an improved ritual that requires a summoning team might be required.

 

[Flagg]

and what a great way to introduce a major threat into your campaign.

Yeah, except that a bunch of Solars would just group up and gank the demon. No interesting story there.

 

[Jack1]

Yeah, except that a bunch of Solars would just group up and gank the demon. No interesting story there.

Bear in mind you're talking 3rd circle demons here, something equivalent to Deathlords in power level.

 

[Flagg]

Allowing 2+ Solars to dump motes towards shrinking its dice pool to resist = GANK.

 

[The zombie cat]

It was stated in the book that the given charms and spells where the result of extensive research and development' date=' it is not possible to design more efficient versions of existing charms and spells.[/quote'] Actually I think its stated in the White and Black Treatise that you explicitly can make new versions of existing spells. You just have to go through the trouble of researching and learning the new version. I believe the example was if you weren't happy with Death of Obsidian Butterflies and decided to create Death of Adament Butterflies, or some such, it would be a whole new seperate spell.
Based on that logic I don't see why you couldn't create a new cooperative demon summoning spell. Something to the effect of:


Summon Third Circle Demon, Bound by Solar Glory


Cost: 45+m


Target: Third Circle Demon


                This spell functions exactly as the regular Summon Third Circle Demon spell, except it allows a number of similarly talented Lawgivers to coordinate their efforts in summoning and binding the demon. All participants must know the spell to participate in the ritual.


From here you have two options:


     1) Let every participant add motes to reduce the demons dice pool


     2) Or run it like a coordinated attack where the head caster rolls (Charisma+Occult) at a difficulty of half the number of the group rounded down. This then imposes on the demon a penalty equal to the number of casters. Only the head caster can reduce the demon's dice pool with extra motes.


I like the second option myself, and this can obviously be changed for any level of demon (although I'm not sure why you'd need a group to summon a First Circle demon unless we're talking mortal casters)

At the same time it said the spell should only be thematically different, not mechanically superior. Death of adamant butterflies doesn’t do more damage than death of obsidian butterflies.


The spell you described I would allow (with normal research time) it costs a few more motes and requires all contributors to know the spell, so you are paying something for the improved effect of cooperation.


Edward

 

[Thorn Darkblade]

Allowing 2+ Solars to dump motes towards shrinking its dice pool to resist = GANK.

Unless, of course, the resulting anima displays attract other unwanted attention, which happen to gank the now-drained Solars who just dropped all their Essence ganking said demon.
Cause, honestly, to gank a demon hardcore, that's gonna be ALOT of peripheral essence spent

 

[Flagg]

The bottom line is, I don't see anything fun or intriguing about this idea. It's an attempt to take what is supposed to be a risky thing for Exalted to do, and water it down so there's less chance for a bad (or even unexpected and potentially interesting) result.


If that's your route, why not just make a summoning spell that the demon can't resist, and save everyone a few minutes of masturbatory dice rolling?

 

[Thorn Darkblade]

Cause I like it when the dice get all hot and sweaty...


Anywhoo, I didn't let them combine the charms. However, turns out the Twilight rolled awesome anyways, so, they didn't need to gank its ass. ALthough, them wasting all that Essence could've been funny...

 

[Solfi]

At the same time it said the spell should only be thematically different, not mechanically superior. Death of adamant butterflies doesn’t do more damage than death of obsidian butterflies.

... true. But there are always ways around that. Death of Iron Butterflies would be a comparable version, and above statement aside, it feels pretty natural that it should have some sort of additional effectiveness against the Wyld.

 

[Flagg]

Death of Iron Butterflies

You mean like Darryl DeLoach and Erik Brann?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Ah, while Death of Psychadelic Butterflies instead does entirelly illusory damage, entirelly bashing, incapable of rollover, but dodged with one's MDV and soaked with Willpower.

 

[memesis]

It's an attempt to take what is supposed to be a risky thing for Exalted to do, and water it down so there's less chance for a bad (or even unexpected and potentially interesting) result.

I hope you acknowledge that many of the suggestions here have not mitigated all risk, only exchanged one type of risk for others.

 

[The zombie cat]

The bottom line is, I don't see anything fun or intriguing about this idea. It's an attempt to take what is supposed to be a risky thing for Exalted to do, and water it down so there's less chance for a bad (or even unexpected and potentially interesting) result.
If that's your route, why not just make a summoning spell that the demon can't resist, and save everyone a few minutes of masturbatory dice rolling?

Yes its trying to remove the risk, and some would say that the story is better with more risk.


Personally in all my observations of humanity I have found that people (smart people) try to reduce or eliminate risk. I consider it bad for the story if the incredibly intelligent twilight cast fails to take reasonable precautions when trying to summon a demon he knows can beat him if it gets free.


Having help on hand to put it down, taking charms or artifacts to improve available motes, redesigning the ritual to allow additional helpers. These are all the actions of somebody who knows they are messing with something that is very dangerous and barley controllable, even in the high first age most solars considered third cercal demons risky, failure to take all possible measures to ensure success isn’t dramatic, its stupid.


Edward

 

[Flagg]

Personally in all my observations of humanity I have found that people (smart people) try to reduce or eliminate risk.

I'm not saying that it's a bad idea to let people try to play things smart -- I'm saying it's a bad idea to create rules so that any moron who can read a book can undermine a deliberate theme of the game.

 

[Persell]

Sometimes flagg ruins entire threads for me by posting my opinion!