Solar Exalts and Martial Arts Development

[Alabaster Anathema]

Im sure this idea has been toyed with around here on some level and with that said


Now im not trying to take anything away from any of the other Exalts, Namely the Sidereals but just as a general rule of thumb in exalted is that the solars get the cream of everycrop no matter what it is, I.E.. Power level, Artifacts, Sorcery, hell even the ability to make things perfect


the reason i say this is iv always thought of toying with the idea of "Solar level" Martial Arts or maybe even make a Martial Arts Style that can only be practiced by the solar exalt and not just because they have a charm you need to master the final charm in the Martial arts tree


so has anyone ever thought about this, maybe even Styles that Mimic the US or is that already done in Solar Hero Form

 

[Flagg]

Solars can already be better than Sidereals with Sidereal MAs. I don't think we need yet another level of Martial Arts.

 

[Sherwood]

Flagg has a point.  A Solar can already learn (assuming they have someone to teach them) the Sidereal arts.  They have access to the highest level of spells.  What more do they need?  Granted, a 'Solar level art' would be awesome.  But how much more do you need?  Some of the Sidereal arts have a starting Essence cost of 7+, and a minimum martial art skill of 7.  That right there is some serious shit.  Are you looking for a martial art with a Solar form charm with a skill and Essence cost of 9 or 10?  Ouch.  Good luck writing that one up.

 

[memesis]

In Exalted, "martial arts" has a specific context:  supernatural Charms which use Essence to emulate the nature of something else.  The animal styles do it, the Dragon styles do it, the Sidereal-level styles do it.  Even Solar Hero in 2E is explicitly described as letting others "emulate the Solar hero".  But making Charms that let you be like someone or something else are basically the province of the Sidereals.


In 2E, what Solars can do is expand any styles natural to themselves, including perfect attacks or defenses which are Solar-specific Charms.  They might even construct a "flawless martial arts style" that has no weaknesses when practiced against other styles - but just because the style is perfect, the practitioner won't necessarily be.

 

[Persell]

if you REALLY want this... make an extension of solar hero style... thats in the essence 6+ region Im not sure WHAT that would be though....

 

[Bizar]

I agree that there should be a solar level MA tree. I think it is ludicrous that the Siddies are more capable in MA then the Solars, because they are supposedly more ethereal minded. While in my oppinion MA is specifically made to master the body and the enviroment.


This may be my anti-siddiesentement speaking again, but I think there could only be one Solar MA style "perfect mastery" in there would be the best traits and concepts of each of the MA trees. Mixing them to a perfected style of poise and control.

 

[Flagg]

I think it is ludicrous that the Siddies are more capable in MA then the Solars

They aren't. Not only can Solars learn Sidereal MA, they can get bigger dice pools and have more Essence.

 

[wordman]

Not only can Solars learn Sidereal MA, they can get bigger dice pools and have more Essence.

Yup. Only thing solars can't do is use sutras (although this is easy to house rule around, if you like).

 

[memesis]

I think it is ludicrous that the Siddies are more capable in MA then the Solars, because they are supposedly more ethereal minded. While in my oppinion MA is specifically made to master the body and the enviroment.

Your opinion conflicts with the developers' opinion on this subject.  As mentioned, supernatural martial arts are not mastering the body and the environment - any Exalt already has a mastery of his body and soul, far beyond any mortal measure.  They are about controlling Essence flows to model some specific part of existence, such as drawing on the speed and power of the Snake (Snake Style), or mastering the Essences of magical materials, Demesnes, and other Exalts (Prismatic Arrangement of Creation).


I have no idea what "more ethereally minded" means, but if "managing Essence flows" doesn't fit the bill, I give up.


Sidereals are going to be "better" in the martial arts, in the specific areas of creating new styles, using sutras with styles, and exceeding their normal dice pool limits (Flagg, just to make sure, you remember this part of the rules, right?)


If you really want to make an argument that Solars should be better than they are in the rules, you need to explain how they aren't already.  Let's review:


- Solars can learn Sidereal martial arts with a tutor.  So can Sidereals.  Neither can simply learn the styles unaided.  Winner: Tie.


- Sidereals using martial arts get to hit dice-pool caps that Solars have already.  Winner: Tie.


- Solars pay 8 XP per Charm if Martial Arts are favored.  Sidereals pay 10.  Both pay +2 if non-favored.  Winner: Solars.


- Sidereals can use the special sutras available at the pinnacle Charms of Sidereal martial arts.  Winner: Sidereals, although frankly this is a tiny benefit compared to everything else.


- Sidereals can create Sidereal martial arts, Solars cannot.  Winner: Sidereals.


- Solars have larger Essence pools than Sidereals, and are not hit with Paradox if they dip into their peripheral motes.  Winner: Solars.


- The Charms function exactly the same for either Exalt type.  Winner: Tie.


Summary: the advantage Sidereals have seems to be that, well, they can create new styles.  Solars are more capable at actually using martial arts in practice, as we can see.


If you think supernatural martial arts Charms should all be about the body and the environment, hey, great.  Design some new Charm trees that actually reflect that.  But the canon trees do not.

 

[Ker'ion]

- Sidereals can create Sidereal martial arts, Solars cannot.  Winner: Sidereals.
- Solars have larger Essence pools than Sidereals, and are not hit with Paradox if they dip into their peripheral motes.  Winner: Solars.


...


If you think supernatural martial arts Charms should all be about the body and the environment, hey, great.  Design some new Charm trees that actually reflect that.  But the canon trees do not.

Where does it say that Siddies using Peripheral Motes get hit with Paradox?  I must have missed that part.


And I think that a Solar Style MA tree should be more vicious, yet not as spiritually evolved.  Sort of like the comparison between Systema and Capoeira or Aikido.  While Capoeira is much more beautiful and detailed of a System, and Aikido is a more spiritualistic MA Style, Systema seems to be based on bringing down your opponent and making sure that, under no circumstances, do they regain their footing ever again without the Martial Artist's express permission.


I think a Solar MA Style should embrace this concept, as they are the generals of the Exalts.  It should be an extremely militaristic Style, capable of crippling maneuvers and devestating blows that can be used in mass combat to decimate the armies of your opponents with the least amount of energy wasted.


A foe left untended may bring forces to bear that could become a nuisance or possibly even a threat.  If they will not surrender, make sure they can't effectively fight back.  Ever again.

 

[Bizar]

- Sidereals can use the special sutras available at the pinnacle Charms of Sidereal martial arts.  Winner: Sidereals, although frankly this is a tiny benefit compared to everything else.
- Sidereals can create Sidereal martial arts, Solars cannot.  Winner: Sidereals.

From a role-playing point of view I find that these are far more important then all the gametechniqual points on rules. The rules make the implementation more powerful, but these two tell you that the only masters are the Siddies. This is wrong in my oppinion. I agree that the developers put forward a good point I just happen to dissagree with it.


Just because I may be stronger than someone and can beat else does not mean I have mastered the skills of the contest better. I think this is a common misconception. Solars are (should be) the perfect embodiment of the ideals of Man, MA if nothing else is solely an aspect of man. When have you ever seen a dove doing MA. Therefore MA should be within the purview of the Solars.

 

[Flagg]

exceeding their normal dice pool limits (Flagg, just to make sure, you remember this part of the rules, right?)

I forgot about that, actually. Though in 2E, Essence Flow and Essence Mastery still give Solars much more potential to be effective with the Charms.

 

[Lotus1]

yeah see in my games, i refuse to allow the possibilty of solars to learn Siddie MA's. i say its like solarsorcery, its exclusive to siddies and its beyond comprehension to the solars.

 

[Ker'ion]

When have you ever seen a dove doing MA. Therefore MA should be within the purview of the Solars.

BIRDIE BOO-YAA, BEE-ATCH!!


[Edited] to straighten out the quote brackets

 

[memesis]

Where does it say that Siddies using Peripheral Motes get hit with Paradox?  I must have missed that part.

They only take Paradox if they've donned a Resplendent Destiny.  So not always, but often enough to make a Sidereal think about his situation.  Page 121 of the Sidereals book.

 

[memesis]

Solars are (should be) the perfect embodiment of the ideals of Man, MA if nothing else is solely an aspect of man. When have you ever seen a dove doing MA. Therefore MA should be within the purview of the Solars.

Then you are redefining what supernatural martial arts are in Exalted, as I've already mentioned.  Which is fine, have fun doing so, the Golden Rule prevails.  Just be aware that you are doing it.


"When have you ever seen a dove doing MA"?


You may not care, but in China and elsewhere, a large number of formal martial arts styles were derived and named after animals and their natural fighting styles.


Some suggested reading:


http://www.innwa.com/dev/qezine/news/ge ... 29&catid=0 (Bando: Burma's Art of the Boar)


http://www.shaolin-society.co.uk/Animal ... styles.php (Shaolin Animal Styles)


Exalted has carried this real-world trend into its setting.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Bizar--Have you read through the PG and its explanation of the differing levels of the Path of the Perfected Lotus?


If you had, you would understand why the Sidereal level, The Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus is top.  It's not about physical power, but understanding of how martial arts, individuals, and the universe are aligned.  


Solars can take the steps to get that level of initiation, and do well, but the Sidereals have that knowledge from their start. They Exalt a little differently as well, and their understanding of how the Creation works is a little different, and their Martial Arts is a bit different as well.


The Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus is more than physical.  It's more than just adding magical might, it's about using esoteric principals, and subtle alignments of energy and will.


Solars are a bit more basic than that.  They can reach those heights, but it takes time.

 

[Bizar]

Quote:


When have you ever seen a dove doing MA. Therefore MA should be within the purview of the Solars.


BIRDIE BOO-YAA, BEE-ATCH!!

Thank you for making my point.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Bizar--You didn't answer the question though: have you read the explanation of the Trinity of the Perfected Lotus?


That explains why.  Lays it all out.

 

[Bizar]

Bizar--Have you read through the PG and its explanation of the differing levels of the Path of the Perfected Lotus?
If you had, you would understand why the Sidereal level, The Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus is top.  It's not about physical power, but understanding of how martial arts, individuals, and the universe are aligned.  

I have read through the PG I I find it presumptious to sugest that I didn't. And as I said it isn't about the physical prowess of the art I think I threw that argument out with the bit:

Just because I may be stronger than someone and can beat else does not mean I have mastered the skills of the contest better. I think this is a common misconception. Solars are (should be) the perfect embodiment of the ideals of Man, MA if nothing else is solely an aspect of man. When have you ever seen a dove doing MA. Therefore MA should be within the purview of the Solars.

However I think that in every book the Siddies are portrayed as master puppateers who control the strands of destiny. They do not strive for perfection. They strive for feasability. They kill all the Solars to ensure that creation doesn't crash, instead of finding another way that may be there. Their martial arts stuff doesn't fit with this picture all of a sudden they do perfect MA and spend all that time not helping creation stay on tracks. They find it more lofty to what become a MA master then see if they can steer the ship of fate away from the dangers posed by the DL's and Yozis.


Learning MA takes huge amounts of time both of the student and the teacher. This means that that time cannot be spent on their real tasks.


If they wanted to do something cool with the Siddies they shouldhave played on the role they already had created for them and not add some new incocistancy to the mix. In my oppinion there should only be one group of exalts able to create the ultimate style of form and that should be the Solars.

Then you are redefining what supernatural martial arts are in Exalted, as I've already mentioned.  Which is fine, have fun doing so, the Golden Rule prevails.  Just be aware that you are doing it.
"When have you ever seen a dove doing MA"?


You may not care, but in China and elsewhere, a large number of formal martial arts styles were derived and named after animals and their natural fighting styles.

Yes the arts are abstractified parts of animal behaviour and animal physiology, but this is typically a human way acting. To better explain our intent we will incorporate it within a known reference, in this case animals that are dangerous or inspiring to us. This does not mean that the animal fights like that, but we can better explain the style by connecting it to known prejudices we have of that animal. We overlay human emotions or cultural concepts on the animal and through them we interpret the intent of the thing we are explaining. It is a comunication technique and communication through abstracts is definitely a human notion.

Solars can take the steps to get that level of initiation, and do well, but the Sidereals have that knowledge from their start. They Exalt a little differently as well, and their understanding of how the Creation works is a little different, and their Martial Arts is a bit different as well.

I agree that they may have a different understanding of creation. It is why they do not strive for perfection, but are content with simply achieving their goal. However as I mention earlier I find that the MA doesn't fit with this. It is no more incorporated with their quintessential position in the Universe. They are here to steer history to achieve continued stability. MA has no impact on that, if they had styles that would help them persude people to do the right thing when they need to or any other aspect that would let them do a small thing that would escalate in time to their desired goal then that would fit their profile. This can be far more powerful then MA, but doesn't need to be. It would fit far better with the way they have been portrayed so far.

The Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus is more than physical.  It's more than just adding magical might, it's about using esoteric principals, and subtle alignments of energy and will.

I agree but it does not help the Siddie in steering destiny or advising the current rulers and that is why they are there. They are the Voice that commands the Sword they are not the Sword. The DB Lunars and Solars are there to do the fighting and killing and building and what have you. The Siddies are there to orchestrate it all. MA does nothing to help them in this respect and therefore is stupidly portrayed in the PG.

Solars are a bit more basic than that.  They can reach those heights, but it takes time.

The application of such direct force is basic. As soon as you enter combat you enter one of man's most basic drives. So basic that it even becomes animalistic, the drive to live, to dominate and to thrive without compromise. Again if you think the Siddies are beyong that they should be able to achieve the same result without having to resort to timeconsuming MA trainings and directly applied violence. You should not think so linearly when you can see into the future you can see who you'd have to motivate the right way to achieve your objective without ever risking yourself.


I think it is stupid for any Siddie to ever risk herself. They should be able to accomplish everything by letting others die. I love their singlemindednes and their willingnes to sacrifice for the greater good and MA failes to support this and even cheapens them as a group.


To surmise I think the MAcheapens the Siddie concept and weakens the rest of the game. Yes I will golden rule this away in any of my games. Since in my oppinion they failed when they created the Siddie rules, with the eeption of the paradox/ prognostication bit.

 

[Bizar]

Bizar--You didn't answer the question though: have you read the explanation of the Trinity of the Perfected Lotus?
That explains why.  Lays it all out.

Sorry when I posted my last comment I hadn't noticed the new page and replied only to the end of the previous one.

 

[Jukashi]

The essential argument being presented, I believe, is that Terrestrials are best at elemental manipulation, Lunars are best at Shapeshifting, Sidereals are best at Astrology and Destiny and manipulation and so on, and Solars are best at being really really skilled... and that Martial Arts is a skill, ergo, Solars should be best at it.

 

[Bizar]

In a nutshell yes, but I like to practise my English and usually get quite worked up about the way the siddies are portrayed. This tends to make me somewhat long winded and if I have offended anyone I asure you this has been unintentional and was in no way personal.

 

[Jakk Bey]

I asked you if you'd read it, because the explanation was pretty clear as to why there was a difference between those levels of initiation.


The progression shows understanding how the Creation operates. And Sidereals are masters at shaping and manipulating these forces.


I personally dislike the idea of linking Martial Arts with Enlightenment--which is what The Trinity of the Perfected Lotus is about, I don't think that the Solars have to be the best at everything.  


Especially about understanding the basic forces that hold the Creation together, and understanding how it all works.


Your argument that Siddies should be looking for more than just physical responses, and the drives basic to combat is exactly why Siderals have their own level of Martial Arts. Their arts are a bit more removed than just punching and kicking, but altering the Creation at a basic level, and in ways that are often very subtle.  


That Sidereals should avoid direct confrontation doesn't obliviate their connection to Martial Arts.  If anything, as advisors and teachers, their connection is supposed to be helping Solars rule well, and pushing the limits to knowledge, and perfecting arts to teach others is part of what they're supposed to do.  Not come up with uber killing moves to keep under wraps, but teach and advise, and assist.


Having a great deal of skill in a martial art doesn't mean you use that skill to beat on people.  Most of the time, those who are highly skilled spend a lot of time and effort to not let things get to that point.  Part and parcel of training is knowing when to not engage.


I think that you have some slightly different views of what the Sidereals' purpose is, and was, as well as the Solars'.  


Solars are fantastic generalists.  And in terms of raw power, they can outstrip other Exalts in most things, given enough time and effort.  They aren't as specialized as their brethren though, and in their own niches, they have to make up some serious shortfalls, and even then, they can usually pull it out to be better, faster, and stronger.


A Solar who has learned the Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus, and mastered their style, is then open to do their own thing with that knowledge. And in that, they could outstrip their teachers.


But someone has to be that repository of knowledge. To push that envelope. To be that advisor.

 

[Bizar]

I personally dislike the idea of linking Martial Arts with Enlightenment--which is what The Trinity of the Perfected Lotus is about, I don't think that the Solars have to be the best at everything.  

I agree with you on the point of linking MA with enlightenment. Although this is done in many cultures all over the world. I still think that their focus should be on anything but MA.

Your argument that Siddies should be looking for more than just physical responses, and the drives basic to combat is exactly why Siderals have their own level of Martial Arts. Their arts are a bit more removed than just punching and kicking, but altering the Creation at a basic level, and in ways that are often very subtle.  

I think also that the arts of the siddies are no more removed than all the other MA styles. If this was what the developers wanted they failed in my oppinion.

That Sidereals should avoid direct confrontation doesn't obliviate their connection to Martial Arts.  If anything, as advisors and teachers, their connection is supposed to be helping Solars rule well, and pushing the limits to knowledge, and perfecting arts to teach others is part of what they're supposed to do.  Not come up with uber killing moves to keep under wraps, but teach and advise, and assist.

I see the Siddie role more as that of an advisor or as a teacher who inspires the student to search on his own instead of teaching it to him in prefab chunks. They should be able to foresee the concequences of their actions and prepare accordingly.

Having a great deal of skill in a martial art doesn't mean you use that skill to beat on people.  Most of the time, those who are highly skilled spend a lot of time and effort to not let things get to that point.  Part and parcel of training is knowing when to not engage.

There are better ways to teach this and leave them more time to do their other duties.

I think that you have some slightly different views of what the Sidereals' purpose is, and was, as well as the Solars'.  

I probably do. My biggest concern with the way tey are portrayed right now is that valuable Roleplaying opportunities are destroyed by the way they are both presented within the setting. MA is just the most pronounced version of this.

Solars are fantastic generalists.  And in terms of raw power, they can outstrip other Exalts in most things, given enough time and effort.  They aren't as specialized as their brethren though, and in their own niches, they have to make up some serious shortfalls, and even then, they can usually pull it out to be better, faster, and stronger.

Again I agree, but I don't find the MA fitting within the niche of the Siddies.

A Solar who has learned the Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus, and mastered their style, is then open to do their own thing with that knowledge. And in that, they could outstrip their teachers.

They can only in raw power but not in diversity, which is exactly the Solars strength. Again there exists a conflict of the intended position of the group with respec to the final application of the rules.

But someone has to be that repository of knowledge. To push that envelope. To be that advisor.

No there need not be a repository, just someone to urge the Exalt on. Under the right motivation the Exalt herself will push the envelope or find the knowledgeand the Siddie wil have accomplished his task without direct inteference. This way the knowledge will be better ingrained within the pupil since it is through his own understanding that he achieved that knowledge and the teacher will know that it will remain with the student untill his death.