Smashfists and Melee?

[Lord Kamina]

In Portuguese, the closest thing we have is "Fairy", but if you say Fairy to any Brazilian, this is the first thing that will probably come to his mind:

The fair folks ARE FAIRYS. Or rather, the fairys ARE fair folk...


Basically, it's kinda like Red riding hood... Have you heard about the original versions?

why yes, yes I have. have you heard the original sleeping beauty?

I know I did at one time but I forgot what happened now.

 

[Smeggedoff]

The first major departure in this from the version we know today is when the Princess pricks her finger on her 15 birthday. In earlier versions the Princess instead gets a piece of flax caught under her fingernail which pricks her and puts her to sleep. This might seem like a small difference but it becomes important when you consider the other major, and unsettling, change to the story.
Previous versions of the tale have the Prince who finds Sleeping Beauty think she's so damn beautiful he just goes ahead and has his way with her right then and there. Yes, while she's still comatose.


If that's not disturbing enough, the rohypnol-style coupling leads to a pregnancy, and the Princess gives birth to twins, all while asleep. One of the babies, seeking momma's milk, sucks on her finger and dislodges the flax, waking her, at which point we imagine she had a few questions.

 

[Nightmare of Fallen Kings]

And it really stops being an issue when you remember what the Fae were meant to be like...

Seriously, go to Ireland and talk to people in some of the older areas about Fae. The Fair Folk didn't start off as cuddly pixies for children, they were the things that would get you if you strayed to far from town. They were the creatures that would lure you in with a beguiling gaze and then suck out your very soul, or lead you into the woods until you were completely lost, then lead you in circle for days until you starved, just for fun. I love the fact that the Fair Folk in Exalted harken back to the roots of what faeries originally were.

 

[Arthur]

I really don't think the word "Fairy" has the same connotation in English it has in Portuguese. You'll not rarely find 11 year old girls that find fairies ridiculous and childish.

 

[magnificentmomo]

It means gay men here too.

 

[Flagg]

I really don't think the word "Fairy" has the same connotation in English it has in Portuguese. You'll not rarely find 11 year old girls that find fairies ridiculous and childish.

No, I'm pretty sure it's the same. Most Americans' conception of a "fairy" is Tinkerbell from Peter Pan.

 

[Lord Kamina]

And it's the same in spanish too...


See, Arthur? You're not so special after all, huh?

 

[Fomoria]

As far as Martial Artists not know how to parry' date=' that's bull. You can use your Parry DV with Martial Arts just as well as with melee. If your style has a form weapon, you can use it to block lethal damage completely effectively. Smashfists are gloves with metal bands on them, why couldn't a character parry with the metal bands on the backs of their hands? i think that would be pretty slick. Kind of like the tailor in Kung Fu Hustle blocking hatchets with the metal rings on his wrists. Granted, your style would have to be one that uses Smashfists as a form weapon, such as Solar Hero Style, mastered Celestial Monkey Style, or Mantis Style. If they didn't intend for characters to parry with Smashfists, they wouldn't have given them a +2 Def rating [/quote']
Sure, they get Parry DV, but that doesn't mean that they can parry. Well, unless they happen to have limbs made of steel. Martial arts will focus on blocking the movement of the non-weapon parts of the opponent (a block). Melee trained characters will prefer intercepting and deflecting the weapon with their own weapon, also known as a parry.


Just because the system makes use of a term for an abstraction, does not mean that it bears any direct relevence to the things that the abstraction is hiding. A martial art generally assumes that the practitioner is unarmed (or armed with massively inferior weaponry) and focuses on training that allows them to overcome a weapon disadvantage. Smashfists, however, are made of a magical material and therefore can take a daiklave without breaking - they can be used to parry (hence you may use melee for them) but are also gauntlets, so a trained martial artist can make use of their skills without the artifacts significantly hampering the style.


This is somewhat away from the current topic, but I prefer not to be misunderstood.

 

[Chaka]

And it really stops being an issue when you remember what the Fae were meant to be like...

Seriously, go to Ireland and talk to people in some of the older areas about Fae. The Fair Folk didn't start off as cuddly pixies for children, they were the things that would get you if you strayed to far from town. They were the creatures that would lure you in with a beguiling gaze and then suck out your very soul, or lead you into the woods until you were completely lost, then lead you in circle for days until you starved, just for fun. I love the fact that the Fair Folk in Exalted harken back to the roots of what faeries originally were.

I'm Irish, and have spent my entire life, born and raised, on the west coast. Which is where the oldest stuff like that is strongest. Trust me, I know who and what the Fae are. It's also why Changeling is the best of the WOD games, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[cyl]

People... don't get technical here :lol:


PDV means you can parry. The rules state that you can't parry lethal damage without a stunt, so when unarmed, you need a stunt to parry a sword: be it blocking the edge between your palms before the blade cuts you in half or blocking the hands holding the grip.


But I agree, the M tag shouldn't be put on fists and boots, nothing justifies the fact one can use Melee attacking and defending with it... except maybe that the writers wanted the pcs to be able to use melee charms with them... don't ask me why...

 

[Nightmare of Fallen Kings]

As far as Martial Artists not know how to parry' date=' that's bull. You can use your Parry DV with Martial Arts just as well as with melee. If your style has a form weapon, you can use it to block lethal damage completely effectively. Smashfists are gloves with metal bands on them, why couldn't a character parry with the metal bands on the backs of their hands? i think that would be pretty slick. Kind of like the tailor in Kung Fu Hustle blocking hatchets with the metal rings on his wrists. Granted, your style would have to be one that uses Smashfists as a form weapon, such as Solar Hero Style, mastered Celestial Monkey Style, or Mantis Style. If they didn't intend for characters to parry with Smashfists, they wouldn't have given them a +2 Def rating [/quote']
Sure, they get Parry DV, but that doesn't mean that they can parry. Well, unless they happen to have limbs made of steel. Martial arts will focus on blocking the movement of the non-weapon parts of the opponent (a block). Melee trained characters will prefer intercepting and deflecting the weapon with their own weapon, also known as a parry.


Just because the system makes use of a term for an abstraction, does not mean that it bears any direct relevence to the things that the abstraction is hiding. A martial art generally assumes that the practitioner is unarmed (or armed with massively inferior weaponry) and focuses on training that allows them to overcome a weapon disadvantage. Smashfists, however, are made of a magical material and therefore can take a daiklave without breaking - they can be used to parry (hence you may use melee for them) but are also gauntlets, so a trained martial artist can make use of their skills without the artifacts significantly hampering the style.


This is somewhat away from the current topic, but I prefer not to be misunderstood.

Almost every martial arts form in the game has a form weapon of some sort. Form weapons can be used with that style as if the character was unarmed, and in my experience, players tend to use the form weapons for their MA style more often than not. Even if a character IS unarmed, he can still parry using a stunt, so saying that it's not possible to parry weapons with martial arts is totally inaccurate. Especially considering many martial arts trees include a charm that allows characters to parry lethal damage without use of a stunt somewhere in the tree. (See: Jade Mountain Style, Celestial monkey Style, Dreaming Pearl Courtesan Style, Mantis Style, Etc.)

 

[Fomoria]

You still don't seem to understand the difference between Parry DV and the act of parrying. They're different things; Parry DV is an abstraction that can cover all kinds of things, like blocks and catching the blade between your hands. The act of parrying is where you swing your weapon into the incoming weapon to deflect the attack.


Martial Arts does not allow you to parry but you may use Parry DV. The previous statement is logical because Parry DV is not necessarily parrying. This is further borne out by the fact that parrying is not something that a person will learn when training in Martial Arts, because Martial Arts is primarily an unarmed ability and you cannot parry whilst unarmed because there is nothing but the target to deflect the attack with. If you want to parry using weapons with the M tag then you need to use Melee, if you only want to use Parry DV then you can use Martrial Arts.


Now, if you can't get your heads around this difference I'll give you a hint; when I use the name of a game concept I tend to capitalise the first letter of each word. Parry DV is not the same as parrying, despite the name similarity.


All this logic leaps out of a top floor window when we bring in charms. Charms are an essence user saying "fuck the rules" and kicking reason to the curb.


You can also use Smashfists as any other weapon - there's nothing funadementally distinguishing them from a sword except for the fact that they happen to fit around the fist. Someone using Smashfists with Melee won't have a martial arts form (not related to a Form Charm), they won't use the flexibility of the hand to grab weapons or bits of the opponents body for throws. They'll wade in, keep their hands as rigid as possible, and use them like a club or a sword and parry with them like any other weapon. Fundamentally you can keep your hands in a single shape and use them like any other weapon if they're coated in metal.

 

[cyl]

double posted

 

[cyl]

Martial Arts does not allow you to parry but you may use Parry DV. The previous statement is logical because Parry DV is not necessarily parrying. This is further borne out by the fact that parrying is not something that a person will learn when training in Martial Arts, because Martial Arts is primarily an unarmed ability and you cannot parry whilst unarmed because there is nothing but the target to deflect the attack with. If you want to parry using weapons with the M tag then you need to use Melee, if you only want to use Parry DV then you can use Martrial Arts.

The hell it doesn't...
The corebook never says you can't use a limb to parry bashing damage... only that you can't parry lethal/aggravated damage while unarmed without a stunt or charm use (p.146 -> inapplicable defense).


As fyi:

The second DV is the Parry DV' date=' which measures a character ability to deflect incoming attacks by interposing a weapon or even a limb in the path of the attack[/quote']
While unarmed I can use my PDV to parry an attack made with a Goremaul with any of my limbs (I wouldn't recommend trying it though ^^).

You can also use Smashfists as any other weapon - there's nothing funadementally distinguishing them from a sword except for the fact that they happen to fit around the fist

Which is precisely why they are so fundamentally distinct from other types of weapons... I mean when you use something that perfectly fits your body (fist, boot, harness), you fight with it as if you were not armed... so there is no reason you could be using it like a sword or a club.
But if you wear something with an unatural external feature (claws, kathar), then you can use it as a blade, hence the M tag.


The only reason they have the M tag, IMHO, is that the writers wanted the pcs to benefit from the melee charm trees... because they only had 2 martial arts trees at the time.


I'd houserule it and erase the M tag for boots and fists, you can't seriously use your bloody leg as any other weapon.

 

[Smeggedoff]

Martial Arts does not allow you to parry but you may use Parry DV. The previous statement is logical because Parry DV is not necessarily parrying. This is further borne out by the fact that parrying is not something that a person will learn when training in Martial Arts, because Martial Arts is primarily an unarmed ability and you cannot parry whilst unarmed because there is nothing but the target to deflect the attack with. If you want to parry using weapons with the M tag then you need to use Melee, if you only want to use Parry DV then you can use Martrial Arts.

The hell it doesn't...
The corebook never says you can't use a limb to parry bashing damage... only that you can't parry lethal/aggravated damage while unarmed without a stunt or charm use (p.146 -> inapplicable defense).


As fyi:

The second DV is the Parry DV' date=' which measures a character ability to deflect incoming attacks by interposing a weapon or even a limb in the path of the attack[/quote']
While unarmed I can use my PDV to parry an attack made with a Goremaul with any of my limbs (I wouldn't recommend trying it though ^^).

this, most definitely. what kind of cinematic setting would it be if an unarmed martial artist could's parry the geet beig sword with his bare hands, take if of the guy swinging it then tan his hide with it? it's a staple of martial arts films

You can also use Smashfists as any other weapon - there's nothing funadementally distinguishing them from a sword except for the fact that they happen to fit around the fist

Which is precisely why they are so fundamentally distinct from other types of weapons... I mean when you use something that perfectly fits your body (fist, boot, harness), you fight with it as if you were not armed... so there is no reason you could be using it like a sword or a club.
But if you wear something with an unatural external feature (claws, kathar), then you can use it as a blade, hence the M tag.

I'm not so sure, if you're not trained in martial arts then a gauntlet is just an exta few pounds on the end of the arm, I'd think melee is appropriate for someone trying to use their entire forearm as a mace


(what's this? people getting back on topic? what kind of forum is this?)

 

[cyl]

I'm not so sure, if you're not trained in martial arts then a gauntlet is just an exta few pounds on the end of the arm, I'd think melee is appropriate for someone trying to use their entire forearm as a mace

Well there is already a significant difference between using a certain type of sword and another, there is another using a spear and a sword, a knife and a sword, and spear and a knife... add clubs and maces... and you get tons of complex fighting styles all channelled in one ability: Melee.
That's what I tried to point out : if you're not trained in martial arts then a gauntlet is just an exta few pounds on the end of the arm... there is no reason in hell you would use melee with a gauntlet or a boot with Melee, but they both have the M tag.

 

[Nightmare of Fallen Kings]

Martial Arts does not allow you to parry but you may use Parry DV. The previous statement is logical because Parry DV is not necessarily parrying. This is further borne out by the fact that parrying is not something that a person will learn when training in Martial Arts, because Martial Arts is primarily an unarmed ability and you cannot parry whilst unarmed because there is nothing but the target to deflect the attack with. If you want to parry using weapons with the M tag then you need to use Melee, if you only want to use Parry DV then you can use Martrial Arts.

Allow me to put this as simply as I can for you.


One....can...parry...using...their...limbs.


You do NOThave to have a weapon in order to parry an attack from someone who is using a weapon. The fact that you keep saying this is impossible shows you have no concept of how martial arts work. I've had training in martial arts, and YES, you DO learn to parry attacks from armed assailants. Obviously you don't block the blade of a sword with your bare hands, you step in closer and intercept the wielder's arm or wrist to parry the attack, thus deflecting the blow away from your body. So YES you DO parry in martial arts.

You can also use Smashfists as any other weapon - there's nothing funadementally distinguishing them from a sword except for the fact that they happen to fit around the fist. Someone using Smashfists with Melee won't have a martial arts form (not related to a Form Charm), they won't use the flexibility of the hand to grab weapons or bits of the opponents body for throws. They'll wade in, keep their hands as rigid as possible, and use them like a club or a sword and parry with them like any other weapon. Fundamentally you can keep your hands in a single shape and use them like any other weapon if they're coated in metal.

Now allow me to define what martial arts are for you so there's no more confusion. According to Miriam-Webster:


Main Entry:


martial art


Function:


noun


Date:


1928


: any of several arts of combat and self defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport


— martial artist noun


Please pick up the Scroll of the Monk and turn to page 83. Read pages 83 through 85, and then come back and tell us that someone using a smash fist won't be using a martial arts form. There is a reason that smash fists and other cestus-like fist weapons are located in the Martial Arts Weapons section of the book. They are intended for use with Martial Arts. Now take a look at the entry on Smashfists in the main book. Note that they are fully articulated and pose no penalties to accuracy or defense in grapples. A person using these types of weapons will have the flexibility of the hand to grab and make use of weapons and grapples. The only person that's going to wade in keeping their hands as rigid as possible and using them like a cudgel, would be a completely untrained character. I would only expect to see that kind of ineptitude in a character with NO dots in Martial Arts. Just because styles like First Pulse Style and Solar Hero Style are more akin to western fighting styles does not make them any less a martial art. Believe it or not, Boxing is classified as a martial art, so throw all your preconceptions about martial arts being only flowing eastern styles of fighting out the window. Now explain to me how boxing would be made less effective by the use of Smashfists? I rest my case.

 

[Fomoria]

I was going to do an answer-in-detail approach (most modern armies agree that attacking individual elements is the more effective option), and make a joke about extending abstract notions to ridiculous lengths. I decided not to, however.


I am no longer going to bother with the whole parrying thing. I bow before your superior experience. Part of life is knowing when to cut and run, so I'll be seeing you.

 

[cyl]

Aaaw maaaan *throwing pop corn and 3D glasses away*

 

[Brickwall]

You say that Martial Arts can't parry. I will prove you wrong.


"Wax on, wax off."


Fighting someone with a lethal weapon is usually a bad idea, but since disarming them is a priority, one must grab hold of their weapon hand, or at least kick it. This is using parts of the body to redirect an attack. This is parrying. Thus, with a stunt, you can parry with martial arts, and often must do so.


As far as I'm concerned, all gauntlets, cesti, and boots have the N tag instead of the M tag, as does the fighting harness. It makes more sense that way. Seriously, good luck disarming a guy of a boot. Even in Exalted.

 

[Coyotekin]

As for the original part of the discussion I think the tag was added just to represent the MA use of the weapon. This was also faster, and more convenient, than creating a whole new tag that just covers using the weapon in MA. The M tag is being used to cover weapons that are traditionally used in MA, and that could also be used as Melee weapons, like the Staff, Naginata, or Katana to someone untrained in MA. They are still Melee weapons, but weapons tht also have association, and use, in assorted MA styles.

 

[Persell]

You can use a smashfist with melee because you can do a lot more with your fist when its encased in metal then what you could while unarmed, and not every MA is designed to take advantage of that. Real world or not.

 

[Chaka]

Also, you can use Blazing Solar Bolt to hadouken people if you're wearing smashfists.

 

[Smeggedoff]

tha...buh...whaja...excuse me, I need to buy some melee charms

 

[Coyotekin]

I think the other big issue that Fomoria was touching on had to with the fact that Smashfists are classified as being a melee weapon as well. This led to the comment about flailing the weapon around like a club.


Basically, how would you justify classifying a cestus as a Melee weapon?