Over a Mug of Ale [For A Better Age]

[Inari]

I still need to get into the habit of looking here more often...I had a couple of thoughts on dealing with the nobles, though. They're probably not things Narrante would suggest, and they may be half-baked, but I wanted to put them on the table.


On assassinations- I need to think things over on whether Narrante would be willing to do this; her moral development has gotten a little tricky. Intimidation might not work for terribly long, if at all, but if people are away of reformist dukes' tendencies to wind up dead...Well, I thought perhaps of using Narrante as a check against the nobles. If they know of the talents of a Night Caste, they might reconsider attacking Walks directly if the announcement was made that, were he to turn up dead one morning, Narrante would come hunting for the heads of each of the nobles. She's not the most intimidating figure, especially with a Dawn around, but...the threat might hold. Though in typing this I realized that murder is but one of many ways they could cause serious problems...I'm not sure.


An alternative- Perhaps at least some of the nobles could be convinced against making obstructions against heavy reform if the idea that it was for their best long-term interest was impressed upon them. As things stand, Icehold is probably never going to rise above being the small nation it is; but they've been given the opportunity to get in on the ground floor of a rising empire. The Exalts have the will and, seemingly, the ability to turn Icehold into a (or the) major power in the North. The nobles could be told they have the option of remaining kings of the playground, or sacrificing some of their power to become lords in the adult world.


Both options could probably be opposed by especially stubborn (or childish) nobles, but I wondered what you guys might make of it.

 

[Tableface]

See, neither of those hold up under scrutiny.


If the Circle is passively threatening their lives if they don't go along with what the Circle wants, you can bet your ass they're going to be getting a message to Diamond Refuge as soon as possible about horrific anathema monsters holding the city in an iron grip of threat and murder. Also yeah, they can be major problems with assassinating anyone--and the smarter ones have definitely realized Walks is essentially a glorified secretary at this point.


If the Circle tries to sway them over, some aren't going to bite and will need to be killed because they'd end up doing the stuff mentioned in the previous paragraph. And even with those that do bite, they'll still be hoarding things to themselves and bleeding the people dry. Which I'd sort of assumed would be an issue to most everyone in the Circle.


Also, wasn't Narrante raised as an assassin, and the reason she abandoned that lifestyle wasn't a change of heart but instead a personal betrayal? That and her naivete, why would she have issues with killing, especially for good causes?

 

[Sarodinian]

Still advocate civil war. Nobles are obsolete, this doesn't beat around the bush, and it gives Diamond Refuge a hell of a diplomatic nightmare, which gives us time to form our government and start working them over.

 

[Tableface]

Saro, how exactly does this cause Diamond Refuge--a much more powerful independent city-state with no meaningful economic or diplomatic ties to Icehold--a diplomatic nightmare?


More importantly, how does this not cause a social and military nightmare for Icehold? It forces the Circle to divert resources and energy from projects that need to get done, causes the death of many Icehold citizens, and at best MAYBE causes Diamond Refuge to decide it isn't worth getting involved because fixing all that would be too much of a headache. Then all the Circle would need to deal with is all the miniature militaries they helped create, remaining Varajtul raiding parties, and maybe the Skandir.


Put in the simplest terms possible (math): Civil War + Foreign War = BAD.


Edit: And again, you are advocating CIVIL WAR over just assassinating the people they'd need to kill anyway.

 

[Inari]

Yes, she left because of being betrayed, but she's developed further since then. You bring up her naivete often in the sense that it means, coupled with her low compassion, she'd have no qualms about killing whenever convenient. That's not what she's naive about, though; she understands the matter of murder very well. As best I figure for the moment, she's comfortable killing to protect something important, and/or if she's convinced that it's necessary to accomplish some goal she has an interest in. She does have a growing fondness for Icehold, but not a personal attachment to one class over another (excepting maybe Snowflake's clan), at least for the moment. Narrante can't just be pointed in a direction and told "kill."


Not saying it's impossible, I'm just trying to think it over, and she'd need illumination on why it's necessary in the best of cases. Not to mention compensation, though I did have an idea on that matter.

 

[Axelgear]

"Narrante, these people have Icehold in a neck-lock and are threatening to strangle the city, fuck up our plans, or generally make life miserable for the citizenry. Would you be willing to kill them for us?"


That's the simpler version, but I think that does sum it up nicely.


Saro, as for civil war, is that really wise? I can understand, maybe, getting the nobles to covertly try to kill one another and use it as a cover for killing them ourselves, but open civil war? Isn't that like setting your hand on fire to try and remove an unsightly blemish when you have a scalpel right next to you?

 

[Sarodinian]

Well. This turned out better than expected. Sophia out of the picture, the rest of the nobles seem a bit more pliant....


But yeah. Whole reason I advocate the Civil War angle is for Three main points, tied to one central reason:


We've no clue what Diamond Refuge is up to. They likely have spies and intelligence all throughout Icehold.


Point 1:


A mass assassination would create a power vacuum while we look for replacements. That would give them good incentives to move in and take as much of the outlying territory as they can while we're busy sorting things out. All it would really take is one spy with Infallible Messenger or some other arcane means of getting the information to them, and such arcane means exist because Icehold officially has such a device for this very purpose.


Cutting the nobles loose and declaring them their own tiny sovereign nations would mean that Diamond Refuge would need to approach each and every single one as its own diplomatic or military case. It wouldn't stop them, but it should slow them down a good bit. It also allows us to isolate them and re-annex them individually, and give us time to evaluate each noble individually and come up with viable replacements.


Point 2:


There's also the matter where even though we've lucked out so far when we've deposed people in terms of getting more cooperative and/or capable leaders in play, there is no guarantee that those who wind up replacing them would be competent or loyal to us, or that we would have any real say in the matter for who succeeds them. Again, we need time to find proper replacements.


Point 3:


A mass assassination would give the Circle a bad reputation, assuming again that Icehold is infested with spies. The political fallout could do some real damage. "Oh look, these guys truly are Anathema! They wiped out an entire political class just to seize power for themselves!" would sour diplomatic relations with other nobles and heads of state in other countries.


If we were to safeguard against it and simply plot amongst us Circlemates, we also risk alienating our relatively good standing with the mortal officials on our side, namely Walks, Rivers, Contractor, etc, should they find out somehow.


Now, this plan does have holes, primarily being that we'd be screwed if the nobles decided to unite, though my impression is that the nobles are out to screw each other as much as their citizens.


And this is me as Saro talking. Reworked Keikan'll have an easier time of accepting any plan whatsoever, but I've no real idea how one would pitch this to Keikan.

 

[Archivist]

Just finished up the article on Icehold. Posted it on the Dramatis Personas thread. I'm currently in the middle of updating some other things on the Dramatic Personas thread while I am at it.

 

[Tableface]

Saro, there are so many things wrong with your assessment of the situation that I'll go through them one at a time. You seem to be working under a number of false assumptions and coming to peculiar conclusions.

Well. This turned out better than expected. Sophia out of the picture, the rest of the nobles seem a bit more pliant....
But yeah. Whole reason I advocate the Civil War angle is for Three main points, tied to one central reason:


We've no clue what Diamond Refuge is up to. They likely have spies and intelligence all throughout Icehold.

So the sensible thing to do is destabilize Icehold's economic and social systems, get a bunch of your own citizens killed, and give the breakaways a reason to call for help.

Point 1:
A mass assassination would create a power vacuum while we look for replacements.

Why in God's holy name would the Circle want to replace the power-hungry, greedy, corrupt nobility instead of just, I don't know, declaring their lands and fortunes property of Icehold? And then divide the lands up among those that worked on them, setting some aside for Valhal residency, crops, and other purposes? And use the fortunes to fund roads and schools and public works projects?

That would give them good incentives to move in and take as much of the outlying territory as they can while we're busy sorting things out. All it would really take is one spy with Infallible Messenger or some other arcane means of getting the information to them, and such arcane means exist because Icehold officially has such a device for this very purpose.

If you're being that paranoid, no matter what the Circle does the info will get out, making a diversionary tactic utterly pointless. Hell, actually, your suggestion gives them more chances for this.

Cutting the nobles loose and declaring them their own tiny sovereign nations would mean that Diamond Refuge would need to approach each and every single one as its own diplomatic or military case. It wouldn't stop them, but it should slow them down a good bit. It also allows us to isolate them and re-annex them individually, and give us time to evaluate each noble individually and come up with viable replacements.

Creating more problems is sort of the opposite of solving existing ones. And no, it doesn't give time. What it does is take time away from the things in Icehold and abroad that really, really need it.

Point 2:
There's also the matter where even though we've lucked out so far when we've deposed people in terms of getting more cooperative and/or capable leaders in play, there is no guarantee that those who wind up replacing them would be competent or loyal to us, or that we would have any real say in the matter for who succeeds them. Again, we need time to find proper replacements.

Again, why would the Circle even consider setting up another corrupt and obstructive aristocracy?

Point 3:
A mass assassination would give the Circle a bad reputation, assuming again that Icehold is infested with spies. The political fallout could do some real damage. "Oh look, these guys truly are Anathema! They wiped out an entire political class just to seize power for themselves!" would sour diplomatic relations with other nobles and heads of state in other countries.

Except that this is the Time of Tumult. Everyone is doing it. If people want to spin it as evil anathema being evil, they're going to regardless of how the Circle goes about their business. Anyway, it's easy enough to pin it on a Yozi-cult.

If we were to safeguard against it and simply plot amongst us Circlemates, we also risk alienating our relatively good standing with the mortal officials on our side, namely Walks, Rivers, Contractor, etc, should they find out somehow.

Yeah, I'm sure Walks and Cen would be so horrified and irritated by having a reform- and trade-opposing class of oppressive fatcats who have likely sent them death threats at some point out of the way. What a terrible thing. And those mortals, why they'll live in absolute fear of our monstrous acts of giving them the chance to educate themselves, pursue their own professions, own their own land, be paid for their work, and not be taxed to death.

Now, this plan does have holes, primarily being that we'd be screwed if the nobles decided to unite, though my impression is that the nobles are out to screw each other as much as their citizens.

This whole idea has holes. It's pretty much exactly what Ax said: burning your hand to remove a blemish. You're also probably underestimating the agency of the nobility and their ability to act. They probably can be a problem, and probably will if the Circle gives them a chance.


Edit: hell, from all portrayals the people would probably declare it an unofficial holiday if the Circle did these killings openly.

 

[Sarodinian]

Saro, there are so many things wrong with your assessment of the situation that I'll go through them one at a time. You seem to be working under a number of false assumptions and coming to peculiar conclusions.

I probably am. I can't say I know the whole situation, so it is entirely possible my assumptions are false. I'm also taking an overly pessimistic view of the situation. And I do agree that this is burning the hand to remove a blemish. That said:

Why in God's holy name would the Circle want to replace the power-hungry, greedy, corrupt nobility instead of just, I don't know, declaring their lands and fortunes property of Icehold? And then divide the lands up among those that worked on them, setting some aside for Valhal residency, crops, and other purposes? And use the fortunes to fund roads and schools and public works projects?

Again, why would the Circle even consider setting up another corrupt and obstructive aristocracy?

I was under the impression that Icehold's sphere of influence was exceedingly large. We would need administrators of some sort to keep order in the territories, and there may, and that's a big may, be a few viable candidates for the job amongst the nobles. Indiscriminately killing them all would remove a resource we would be hard pressed to quickly replace.


I'll concede the point that the nobles are an unknown though. My plan might result in some banding together or some allying with Diamond Refuge along with others fighting them. But I fail to see how simply killing them would make the situation any better. Suddenly, we'd have a whole bunch of confused and leaderless towns just ripe for infiltration and takeover by parties we don't want there while we're stuck looking for people to administer them.

So the sensible thing to do is destabilize Icehold's economic and social systems, get a bunch of your own citizens killed, and give the breakaways a reason to call for help.

Assassination would likely do the same destabilization, even if we'd be cheered on while doing it. The anarchy resulting would also get citizens killed, and those who succeed them might also turn to anyone that can offer stability. Hopefully that's us, but it's possible they'll turn to others.

Creating more problems is sort of the opposite of solving existing ones. And no, it doesn't give time. What it does is take time away from the things in Icehold and abroad that really, really need it.

This is probably going to wind up taking a lot more time than any of us would like, I believe.


In short, yes, my plan is like burning one's hand to remove a blemish. I just believe that the assassination plot is like chopping off said hand instead.


I would like to see what we gain and the risks from this mass assassination, in your perspective. The Civil War bit is unlikely to fly, of course, but I'm throwing it on the table anyway.

 

[Archivist]

Alright, let me try and clear some things up.


In the event of a civil war, the following things could possibly happen:


1. Diamond Refuge moves in to stabilize the situation, securing their flank in the quickest possible manner as they prepare to fight the Skandir.


2. The nobles could call in Diamond Refuge.


3. Seeing the writing on the wall, and figuring out what you guys are really up to. The nobles effectively declare war on Icehold city and you guys, and just go nuts on Duke Walks’ land.


4. The Varajtul will be given extremely more latitude to move around and cause trouble given the nobles will be concerned with what you are doing, what each of them is doing, and what Diamond Refuge is doing. Likely drastically increasing the number of casualties to the people of Icehold and the Valhal.


5. The nobles disintegrate as a solid block, and go to war on each other. Causing major casualties to each other’s serf populations as they raid, loot, rape, and pillage farms and towns of opposing noble territories.


Naturally all of these things could cause major problems, loss in life and property, and cause chaos. There is a good chance the nobles could rebel if they start seeing themselves hitting the floor due to sudden and unexplained stab wounds, but with the civil war idea they would get more time to get into trouble. Timing is the biggest issue here, and how quickly you can do what you want to do is going to be critical. But civil war is likely going to cause a great deal more chaos then just strait up assassinations if you guys are on the ball.


Also trying to pin it on Yozi cults might be a problem. Given “death by Yozi cult†sounds a lot like “shot while fleeing from police,†or “shot while resisting arrest.â€


Also, being the Age of Sorrow, pogroms of certain groups is not exactly uncommon. Especially after a change in government. It’s unpleasant, but not something that is so terrible by Creations standards as it would be today in our own world and time. Also Walks isn’t likely to be terribly against knocking off the group that have regularly assassinated his family, and have probably threatened his own person. About the same deal with Contractor. As it stands, it is nearly impossible to do any business outside of Icehold’s walls.


Icehold is not super large. From the city itself, Icehold’s territory extends in a 50 mile radius around the city to the north, east, and south (with the west being the sea). This makes up the territory Icehold definitely controls. Then there is another 50 miles radius where Icehold’s control gets sketchy as nobles become more rebellious and independent, it is more wilderness, and the Valhal are more prominent. This makes Icehold a medium sized city-state.


Given that Icehold is largely a serfdom, Icehold’s bureaucracy outside of Icehold itself is very light. More of a protection racket then anything. The only major bureaucratic arms of Icehold are the tax collection, law enforcement, and the military. Each major noble generally has their own guard of a handful of family member knights with some hired guards, and for the villages they have a family member act as sheriff of the town, and hire as many villagers as is needed to enforce the law. Then major positions like priests and tax collectors.


Most people just farm on their plot of land, and don’t need a vast number of services that you need a complex bureaucracy to run. The biggest service the nobles provide is defense against foreign and internal enemies. And if memory serves, you guys are wanting to create at least a small professional army with a national guard of sorts to flesh out manpower. So that isn’t a huge deal. You do have the Valhal (at least as long as you make them sufficiently happy), capable warriors to help stopgap that problem.


The biggest thing you would be losing if you killed the nobles would be the fact you are killing off the literate class in Icehold. Though there are charms to help out with that type of thing if I remember right. Also you would technically be removing the leader class of society.


An extremely oppressive and hated leader class. Likely if the nobles were killed off, the citizens of Icehold would take at least some initiative and elect their own mayors to help run things and fill in things like sheriff until they got some kind of instruction. And they can probably figure out how to organize their own militias and pick up and use a spear if need be in a crunch. They may be the unwashed masses, but they aren’t going to starve to death because someone isn’t lording over them telling them how to chew. In fact, they would likely see their lives instantly improve without the oppressive tax structure sucking them dry.

 

[Tableface]

For the record, when I mentioned pinning assassinations on Yozi cultists, I meant it as a quick fiction for the masses explaining why all their major noble figures died suddenly overnight.


Simplest method: invite (demand) the entirety of the nobility to a huge meeting to determine how the recent trade reforms can best benefit them (and Ann can put it in enough words to make it sound like they have a lot to gain and should be there). Leave the room to fetch a better floral arrangement for the table (preferably one with a dandelion). Lock the door. Open a secret passage into the room, containing a summoned Jade Lion (bonus points if he is dressed in fine clothing). Arrive in time to see it finish off the final noble (whose last words shall be "dandy lion"), and make a show of chasing it off. Burn the bodies with the Zenith anima to prevent the inevitable hungry ghosts. Suddenly produce (forged) documents declaring all the reforms you wanted, signed by the nobility. Declare their properties forfeit to the Duke, send out your army and assassins to "enforce their last noble gesture" to those castles and manors which hold out. Start being an awesome ruler. Declare a series of draconian crackdowns on the city's yozi-cults as a result of this horrific and atrocious assault on Icehold's heart.


And that's how you kill... I think four birds with one jade stone. Yeah, maybe some of the people will see through that very obvious ruse, but... why would they care, now that they have schools, freedom of profession, and a kickin' rad house they bought with money from all the stuff they traded?

 

[Sarodinian]

Hm. Convincing arguments. Would probably be best if we rounded them up, slapped a charge of "Treason" on them collectively, and execute them publicly. Hell, that'd probably get past Keikan without any sugarcoating even before the rework, and could claim the Mandate of Heaven as justification. Everyone probably knows we're anathema anyway.


Edit: Problem with Teodozjia is the whole Zenith Feedback thing. Keikan can't go near it without them trying to kill each other.


Edit Edit: Though if we're encountering it after the fact, might not necessarily be a bad thing, if dangerous.

 

[Tableface]

More dangerous to the Lion than Keikan. Besides, this is after the fact, and is a nice bit of theatre. Give it some impetus to flee, too.


Ooh, extra idea: put the forged document on the table face-down before leaving, so they discover it just because being killed by the lion. Perfect scene.


Edit: oh, also have one of the gods on standby to banish the thing once the show is done with


also: Tiger Balm

 

[Sarodinian]

More worried about Lion ignoring Nobles in favor of Delicious Keikan. But I think it'd be dramatically awesome if Keikan were to beat it to death with his bare hands.


Edit: Additionally, do we have anyone with a means of summoning said Teodozjia?

 

[Archivist]

Edit: Additionally, do we have anyone with a means of summoning said Teodozjia?

Maiden and Horizon are capable of summoning demons, they just generally find the practice unsavory.

 

[Sarodinian]

Right then. Just need to find minimum safe distance for Keikan then.

 

[Sherwood]

Happy New Year everyone.

 

[Inari]

If one wanted to avoid the trouble of letting loose a demon or the possibility of no-shows, Narrante could disguise herself as a cultist quite easily and go on her little manhunt. One could even still have the dramatic capture in public and fake an execution. If she let herself be noticed by family and guards here and there, the nobles' families might feel better about the matter if they believed the murderous cultist (or possibly she could imitate an Infernal) had been dealt with. Unless they need to be removed from the picture due to the problem of claiming inheritence of the position their family member just vacated, which could be...problematic.

 

[Tableface]

If one wanted to avoid the trouble of letting loose a demon or the possibility of no-shows, Narrante could disguise herself as a cultist quite easily and go on her little manhunt. One could even still have the dramatic capture in public and fake an execution. If she let herself be noticed by family and guards here and there, the nobles' families might feel better about the matter if they believed the murderous cultist (or possibly she could imitate an Infernal) had been dealt with. Unless they need to be removed from the picture due to the problem of claiming inheritence of the position their family member just vacated, which could be...problematic.

When you bind a demon, that's... not really a concern. Besides, yeah, Narrante will need to be kept busy killing the majority of the extended family after the fact. Maybe dressed as a yozi cultist (or hey, a demon, Larceny Charms and all). Sure, some of them might not be evil assholes, but when you've murdered the family patriarch/matriarch and laid claim to their lands there's a good chance they'll decide to become that later.

 

[Axelgear]

Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated, which will always be as long as he abstains from the property of his citizens and subjects and from their women. But when it is necessary for him to proceed against the life of someone, he must do it on proper justification and for manifest cause, but above all things he must keep his hands off the property of others, because men more quickly forget the death of their father than the loss of their patrimony.


I love that book.


We still have the sacrificial knife the cultists gave to Calypso. I planned to use it as an artifact, and, I must admit, slaying the extended family of several nobles is probably only going to increase its potence in such matters, so long as Narrante doesn't break or lose it.


As for declaring it the cultist's fault...


t is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.


I'm full of quotes today!

 

[Inari]

Her Mask can make her look perfectly demonic, and her various sneaky abilities can probably help. Not sure if it's been answered already, but on the matter of whether she'd have to deal with the families of the corrupt nobles...Is there going to be a noble class at all, after this? Saro suggested inserting new, more cooperative nobles, but that idea seemed to get thrown out the window. Is it possible just to kill the ones currently obstructing things (and maybe those capable of replacing them right there) and immediately after set in place the proper reforms so any inheritors will be properly taxed and limited in power and whatnot? Inheritors might still be obstructive, but what would happen even if one did completely remove any familial heirs? If the noble class is just going to be removed and their responsibilities given to the government, killing every last blood relative of someone corrupt may not be necessary.

 

[Tableface]

Yes, they all need to be killed. Otherwise you're just making a bunch of enemies who would do anything to get revenge. It might be possible to adopt the ones young enough to not remember the incident clearly, but that's about it, and even that's terribly risky (less so when you raise them on a diet of propaganda and UMI).


It's also very, very hard to institute reform when a bunch of bitter pissants inherit the materials, funding, and manpower you need to do it, and can use those same materials and funding to screw with your attempts to do so because you decided that simply taxing them more strictly would solve everything.


There's a reason regicide usually involved murdering the extended family.

 

[Sarodinian]

I can think of one likely major monkey wrench that could be thrown into this plan. But I'm not going to voice it to avoid giving our illustrious ST any ideas.


Unless. Of course, we want to hear it anyway.

 

[Inari]

I still think I'm missing something. So are there going to be no nobles at all after this purge?