Over a Mug of Ale [For A Better Age]

Now that the big fight is over, can I spend my points to up my Essence?
 
MorkaisChosen said:
I haven't posted for a bit. Sorry 'bout that.
Shall I make up for it by having Bjarn flip out at Sophia?


Why, I think I shall.


EDIT: This here is a scene building an Intimacy: "Sophia Vendel (Disgust)."


Any notable fighters from the battle, by the way?
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I figure the holidays are going to be an erratic time for posting, so I'm not freaking out about it. I figure after the New Years things will begin to settle down to being normal again.


I plan on posting notable fighters from the battle, and a few other rewards once I get some time put them up in a post.

Sherwood said:
Now that the big fight is over, can I spend my points to up my Essence?
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You may, but from this point forward we are training to raise stats. Including this case where you want to raise your Essence.


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Also if you guys want to, you can always do a meeting with a more close-knit group of people you select yourselves. Calypso’s panicked reaction, and other things are kind of threatening to derail the current meeting.
 
Sarodinian said:
Eh, Keikan won't stand for assassinations, but he will try to find excuses to throw the book at them.
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That doesn't really work when the people you're trying to throw it at get to dictate what the rules are.
 
That's me for thinking them corrupt and with lots of laws that dont really get enforced that can come back to bite them in the ass.
 
I think I'm going to be writing up an article on Icehold to help clear up some information, and give everyone a good picture of what Icehold is like. If there are any specific points you guys would like to be covered, feel free to ask. I figure I will cover some basic history, geography, society, economy, and politics.


No post tonight from me unfortunantly. Got in too late to finish what I am writing.
 
Sarodinian said:
Hence, we should do something about that.
Suggestions?
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You have a body that--while absent official controls on the base running of day-to-day Icehold affairs--maintains enough political and economic power that they may as well be considered the true leaders of the city over the mostly-figurehead Duke, composed of mostly-corrupt nobles who hide away useful arms and armaments for their personal use while (and this is mostly conjecture based on the knowledge that they're the type to hide away useful arms and armaments for their own personal use) bleeding their people for as much as they possibly can to enjoy the comforts that their status brings, most of them likely grateful and somewhat loyal (if only for being given the status to enjoy their comforts) to Diamond Refuge which is itself a city with a religious, military, and historical imperative to oppose and hinder Icehold's new overlords, who have been--some would say antagonistically--ignoring the perceived influence and import that this noble class has, pilfering their private collections for toys and weapons, and personally insulting them by making sweeping business and construction plans without their approval or involvement, as well as being present in the sudden--some would say supernatural--changes in faith (both in practice and in actuality) that have swept the city which bear the peculiar mark of mildly deifying these new arrivals.


Naturally, some may find displeasure in this, and could (will) believe it in their best interests to oppose and hinder these new overlords who--while far beyond their ability to oppose in any meaningful way by dint of preternatural prowess in fields of governance and business--could be greatly inconvenienced if a few disgruntled nobles decided to work against them by deciding that it would be in the nobility's best interests to try and drag Diamond Refuge into these oh-so-minor issues and who--even if this doesn't work--will continue to be an irritating obstacle to their new masters and the people they are supposed to be helping protect, possibly aiding the rampant yozi cults which (by simple observation on how widespread they are) one or more probably are already doing.


And our Sun-sanctioned protagonists just had an ex-ninja assassin fall in with their crowd.


I have no idea what they can do with those things.
 
Was referring to a system of government for the city that pays an illusion of fairness to all parties involved.


But as to getting there, if their corpses just mysteriously started piling up, Keikan would take interest and start investigating. That's his nature. You could possibly set up a fall guy for him to find, but if he realizes he was duped, he will reopen the case until he found the actual perpetrators. And if they turn out to be circlemates, Keikan won't care. He'll actively find ways to try to bring them to justice for it.


In short, we'd be trading our obstructive noble problem for an obstructive Keikan problem, and I would really rather not have that.
 
Keikan, WHOSE justice? There is no law out here besides us. We ARE the law. We have a divine mandate, passed down from Heaven by the Sun, to rule the world. If we deem it necessary to kill people as a part of our divine right, we not just can but have it on the highest authority in all of Creation that it is A-OK for us to do so.


Keikan isn't in Gethamane. He is standing around with a group of people who have already performed a coup that he is no doubt aware of.


"Justice" is a relative term. Before you say "justice", you should say whose. If you say Keikan's, prepare for arguments of moral relativism and for Keikan to have all this said to him in far less kind tones by Anoke at the very least.
 
Whatever the proper punishment for murder is in Icehold. One of Keikan's core ideals is the idea that the rulers are not above the law themselves. We may have the authority from Heaven to make the laws, but Keikan believes we also have the responsibility to live up to those very laws that are either present or we will make.
 
First, a coup is illegal in Icehold. Remember that fun fact. Keikan should already be trying to arrest all of us, AND the Duke. This is what we call inconsistency.


Second, the Divine Mandate's been in place for millennia. We have had that authority long since before Icehold existed. We never created Icehold's laws against murder either, and I'd say the Mandate of Heaven has grandfather authority over just about every damn law out there.


In short, yer doin' it wrong.
 
Ehhh, we persuaded the Duke to abdicate and pointed out that he was breaking his own laws, remember? He tried to have his grandchildren assassinated, that's grounds for "Unsuitable To Rule" in my eyes.
 
MorkaisChosen said:
Ehhh, we persuaded the Duke to abdicate and pointed out that he was breaking his own laws, remember? He tried to have his grandchildren assassinated, that's grounds for "Unsuitable To Rule" in my eyes.
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Actually, we didn't. Ann drummed up enough opposition in the Duke's own, already-uncomfortable court during a time of great duress and he was pressured by everyone to step down. Law didn't enter into that decision at all. Now we're dealing with that mentioned court. I don't think that trick will work twice.


Also he ordered those assassinations after he stepped down. Now, can you imagine the kind of temper tantrum a dozen or more greedy officials will throw? Given the ready access to assassins the duke had, I'm willing to bet they've seen some use by other people before.


Yeah, the Circle could try to mindrape all of them, but that's a tall order, especially since most of them probably very much want to keep doing what they're doing, and the ones that take to the conditioning would probably have knives shoved in their backs as soon as possible. Yeah, the Circle could have Ann shake a few hands and start a peasant revolt, but that would involve unnecessary loss of life, architecture, and so on.


Assassination is the quickest, simplest, smartest, safest, and (arguably) most moral course of action.
 
Most moral from this point of view? Possibly.


From Bjarn's point of view... I think he'll see it as unwillingness to face up to problems. There's a certain amount of baggage that comes with being a chieftain, and being seen to stare your problems in the face is part of that.


Also, that damn fool Faith In His Abilities intimacy. He'd act like this anyway, but it does seem to be turning up a lot...
 
Bjarn's a barbarian and an Icewalker, if I recall rightly. Don't they have a tendency to go to troublemakers and challenge them to settle things with fist and blade? Not saying Bjarn wouldn't object to assassinations, the two aren't comparable, but would he oppose killing or at least banishing them?


Of course, I'd call banishing such obvious Quislings immensely unwise, personally...
 
Killing and banishing? No problem. Just be honest about it, and if you're killing them, put a blade in their hand.


(It's not like they have much of a chance against anyone they're likely to be fighting...)
 
To give a brief on the status of the nobles and a few other things in Icehold to help you guys know what you are dealing with. The nobles in Icehold do in fact hold considerable power within the political, social, and economic framework that Icehold has setup since the end of the Third War of Diamonds and Ice. It’s more or less a feudal system outside the city itself. The Duke power is centered in Icehold itself, and effectively acts as the first among equals with the nobility. There he can pass certain types of laws. Some types of taxes (usually fees, and taxes that affect the non-nobles), regulations, blue book laws, setting up construction projects, and so on. Also he can call on the Militia and the aristocracies warriors in general. If they actually muster, especially outside of Icehold, is another matter.


The nobles are able to effectively run their lands as their own small countries. They can make their own laws, collect taxes as determined by themselves (and they are also ‘responsible’ for collecting the Duke’s taxes, how good they are at that duty can depend on how they feel about the Duke at the time), and are responsible for defending their lands. Thanks to being able to play off weak Duke’s and the power balance in Icehold right after the Third War, the nobles were able to put down oppressive taxes on the yeoman, independent medium to small scale farmers, and pushed them into debt. Eventually forcing them to sell their land to the local nobles, who of course most of the time were more than happy to make them their serfs, and allow them to work what was once their land.


Nearly all the land is in control of the nobles, and the vast majority of the population is made up of serfs who are restricted to work their plot of assigned land. The serfs are typically taxed of everything not absolutely necessary for yearly survival. As a result, most of the wealth is in the hands of the nobles, and the serfs and most non-serfs live in poverty. Serfs may move to another nobles land. But they can only do this during one assigned month during the year, in the dead of winter. In most cases nobles act above the law, and are not subject to many laws, and are not taxed. Duke’s in the past who have attempted to rock the boat too much, such as with land reforms, have a nasty tendency of dying young. Duke Walk’s grandmother was poisoned when she attempted to reform the tax structure among other things. Duke Vial, the old Duke, decided to restrict his activities primarily to the city of Icehold until he went off the deep end near the end of his reign.


This is a class of people that likes being on top, have benefitted enormously from the system compared to the average man and women in Icehold, and expect things to stay that way. The only major bonds between the nobles and the larger Icehold state are direct bonds of fealty to the Duke, customs, traditions, and a handful of laws. They are not likely going to like attempts to strip them of their power, influence, and wealth. And they have acted negatively to previous attempts by Duke, serfs, reformers, and other nobles who have attempted to do so in the past. And yes, assassinations among other acts have been committed. As pointed out by Table, they have locked away useful First Age and other artifacts as their own personal play things (and keeping them out of the average Iceholder’s hands), have bled their people dry so they can live the high life.


Also as a warning, just because they can’t directly oppose the Circle with direct might, doesn’t mean there aren’t ways for them to oppose the Circle and cause trouble. Many of the ways they can make annoyances of themselves have already been stated.
 
OK. We talk the good Duke into "Releasing the nobles from their obligations to Icehold", and deal with each noble as an independent, tiny country. Form our government, then isolate each individual noble and negotiate, conquer, backstab, assassinate and ultimately annex each one separately.


In Essence: Divide and Conquer.


Also: Talked with Axel and Archie re: Justice intimacy. Replacing with "Applying the Law" so it's a lot less ambiguous, and opens Keikan up to more possible actions.
 
Okay, Saro?


There's one hell of a moral and actual disconnect when you try to set up a deliberately-engineered civil war as a better alternative to a small handful of political assassinations.


Edit: also what the heck you even list assassination as a tool in that arsenal
 
Rejiggered Keikan's concept. It wasn't flowing.


Edit: Keikan is also playing against type for me. I'm usually a pretty cold-hearted bastard.
 
Saro and I talked about the character changes in the hope this will allow him to work with the group better. So we will see how this works.


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I would like to remind everyone to make sure to keep this civil. A lot of Very Important decisions are being made in the campaign right now, so this can naturally lead to some stress. Ideas will get thrown around, tossed about, dissected, argued over, and thrown out. That is just part of the process for something like this. I want to make interesting situations like this so we can have fun, be challenged, and make you feel you are all making important and long reaching decisions.


I’m going to say flat up I don’t want a situation where we have PCs trying to arrest each other or trying to knock each other off. That would likely bring the campaign to a screeching halt, and possibly result in me have to take extreme measures to try and save the game. Up to and including kicking problem players out. Which I really don’t want to do. I want PCs in the game to be on the relatively same page when they do act. There is likely going to need to be some give and take, and a lone wolf “We have to do it my way†attitude is not going to be helpful. I don’t want to sound like I am chastising everyone, which I’m not. I’m just trying to make sure this game is fun for everyone, and keep arguments between players from being a major problem.


It seems to me that the big hang up right now is over the ifs, whens, hows, and whys for dealing with the nobles (especially over killing some of them), and how characters will possibly react to said plans. The morality of the issue being a specific problem. You guys are of course worried about how to deal with the nobles, and their possible obstructions of your goal.


I’ll say that the more opportunities you give the nobles to be obstructive, the more likely they will cause trouble if you give them reasons (which is likely inevitable given what you guys want to do). Though killing them outright will likely also provoke a nasty response if they are able to figure out what is going on, and have time to react. There are any number of ways they could potentially make you guys miserable. There is a very real possibility the nobles could try and rebel against you all given you are going to be directly threatening their power. There is also the matter of how the Circle will be perceived based on what they do. A good number of the nobles are nasty customers, and aren’t going to lose what they have without some kind of fight (either political or martial).


So you guys Are going to have to figure out how you want to deal with the nobles. Specifically, 1. The timing, and 2. The methods used.
 
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