Multiple souls

[Jukashi]

So I was reading some Samurai Deeper Kyo in the bookshop this week, and today I wondered: if somebody goofed in Yu Shan, could you end up with someone in Creation that had two souls in one body? Is this plausible? And if so, does it happen much in Creation? With the gods being lazy these days, I'd think it possibile that anyone in Exalted with multiple personalities* would simply have multiple souls, rather than it just being a psychological problem. That'd fit in more with the setting, I feel.


Of course, then you get crazy stuff when one (or more!) of these souls Exalt in one body. Unbalanced for players, but interesting for Storyteller characters.


*apart from people with the Throwback Flaw, or who are possessed.

 

[Moonsilver]

Depends what you think of as the "Soul". Is it the mind in Exalted? I did not get that idea, unless in reincarnation all memories are wiped.


If the soul is an essential self, beyond the mind, would you get two personalities? Perhaps the two would develop a joint mind, not a split one?

 

[cyl]

If you are referring to the soul as a technical term in exalted (Hun+Po), no I don't think it is possible for a human or exalt to have two souls...


But the merit Past Lives (in the 1st ed Player's Guide) can be a good tool for what you're looking for. Someone with this merit at a high level has two minds in his body, his original mind as a human, and the mind of the exalt he was before.


And that duality can be pretty disturbing, annoying and destructive.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Also, mortals and Dragonblooded can take Past Life at low levels normally to remember pieces from past lives of their own actual soul, as someone can fail to do a complete cleaning job on it too, just like with the Exalted essence.It's rather rare, but not unknown. Your idea likely isn't impossible, although very unlikely...Creation is a vast place. So long as there's an interesting story behind it, it could happen. cyl is right that the 1E Past Lives merit is likely a good representation of it...that, or Throwback.

 

[Sherwood]

I see the multiple souls in one body as a plot device more than something I'd like to see my players pulling off themselves.  Make it a way to hide a villian from the heros in the heart of an ally, or have a story where the Pc's are trying to split the souls apart to free someone.

 

[cyl]

Hmm you could use one of the ring described in Bo3C... if I remember correctly, one ring holds the "soul" of an ancient and twisted sorcerer !

 

[Acidburns]

I would consider the gods in charge of souls and reincarnation are much like the bureau of seasons (or whoever is in charge of weather) and are very much on top of things, especially considering the problems created with the appearance of the underworld.


I do not find it too much of a stretch of the imagination for some sort of sorcery/artifact related mishap to do such a thing however.  I'd imagine such a union would be quite unstable, not just psychologically either.


I'd say any multiple-personality disorders could be due to retained memories from previous incarnations.  Rather than a damaged mind, it would be a damaged soul.  Multiple-personality disorder should slot into neatly into the derangement rules, and I think it would be out of theme for derangement curing magic to be dealing with multiple souls.


How would someone "cure" a person with multiple souls?  Even if there was an intended or original inhabitant of the body, the other souls have an equal right to life.  This poses an ethical issue that "spend motes and cure" charms could not deal with.


If the disorder were caused by retained memories (or plain old damaged mind) the other personalities are a delusion, and can be cured without further issues.  Of course, multiple-soul disorder could be a very interesting issue to explore in play, but I do not think it should be the standard cause.

 

[Moonsilver]

But do not new exalts start to remember events, people etc from the first age anyway? This is source of memories from a different "person".


And I thought as time went on (maybe taking centuries) this became stronger unitil they had a very patchy recollection of first age events?

 

[cyl]

The main issue here is what plot or implications would derive from a being with two souls.


There is a difference to make between one being with two souls, and one with two minds.


The soul is something very "material" in exalted, it can be stolen, destroyed, used, transformed, hell even be placed into another "body" (a solar circle spell if my memory is good).


The way I see it, there is actually such a possibility to have multiple soul in one's body... the soulgem used by the autochtonians.


It could be set into a mortal (following a strange experiment)... but I would not even imagine the consequences or the trauma it would imply for both souls to coexist in one body.


Exalts always deal with seperate minds, as they remember their past lives anyway, but there's no link with multiple souls in that. The mind and memories lie within the essence, which is tied to the soul of the exal.

 

[Jukashi]

A human soul in Exalted is, essentially, a ghost that isn't dead yet. When people die and become a ghost, they have nothing left but their soul, yet they retain memory, personality, etc. So I would say that in Exalted, soul = mind. For humans.

 

[cyl]

Yeah sure... but the soul is divided in two parts... Hun & Po... both have memories and while the Hun is mainly about the personnality, the Po has some elements of it.


But technically, there cannot be two souls in one body... two minds yes, but not two souls... I have a hard time concieving it.


But if you want to resume multiple souls to multiple minds, then of course.

 

[Persell]

A human soul in Exalted is, essentially, a ghost that isn't dead yet. When people die and become a ghost, they have nothing left but their soul, yet they retain memory, personality, etc. So I would say that in Exalted, soul = mind. For humans.

Of course when using this explanation then you totally left out that ghosts are an unnatural occurence in creation.

 

[cyl]

Of course when using this explanation then you totally left out that ghosts are an unnatural occurence in creation.

... YEAH... that too !


By the way... did the Hun/Po exist back in the old days when there was no Underworld ?


I mean, the human soul is divided in two parts Hun/Po... but errr... this could not be "observed" before the underworld was created... since there were no ghosts.


Where do you think this division came from ?

 

[Moonsilver]

The idea comes Chinese religious tradition. Taking that as “canonâ€

 

[Jukashi]

Right, here's what I think. Imagine you are Autocthon. Why are you making human souls, and how would you accomplish that goal?


Humans were created to provide worship to the gods, right? So a human soul (the Hun, that is) is like a little essence conduit. Their body, like all fleshy creatures, collects essence into a lower soul, a po. The Hun can then send some of that essence to a target entity, for example, a god or primordial. That's what humans are for.


((Note that humans, through self-discipline, can learn to manipulate essence directly. I believe that they are, essentially, mastering their own internal essence-directing hardware in doing so. Compare this with Dragon King souls, which are designed with this facility in place from the start in order to make them stronger.))


Now, in order to do this, the Hun needs to be able to collect essence, target something, and send it. In order to recognise things like gods, which are quite abstract concepts when they're not right there in front of you, it therefore needs to be capable of abstract reasoning, i.e. imagination and intelligence. And since these can be used to increase survival and do other useful tasks, you give them plenty of both. Hence, why humans are smart.


And as this essence - collected through eating, breathing, and sensing - passes through, it leaves little residues of itself which form memories. When a Hun leaves its body, then, it gets sucked back into Lethe, cleaned up, then installed in a new body. So Lethe is, essentially, a giant dishwasher.


Now, when the Neverborn died, vast quantities of death essence - which is very stagnant and icky - were released. This "dirty" essence clogs up higher souls, and causes them to get stuck. Their most intense essence residues - the passionate memories of life which form their Fetters - causes them to cling to that which caused them. And because this sticky death essence is heavy and attracted to other death essence, they drift down into the Underworld. But on the upside, since they still function as an essence conduit and no longer have a body to distract them, they can learn Arcanoi.

 

[Solfi]

By the way... did the Hun/Po exist back in the old days when there was no Underworld ?
I mean, the human soul is divided in two parts Hun/Po... but errr... this could not be "observed" before the underworld was created... since there were no ghosts.

... Yes.


There was no Underworld, so the higher soul just went into Lethe. But there was still occurences of Hungry Ghosts (which are products of the lower soul), which explains the need for burial rites (and the Zenith anima power...).

 

[Solfi]

Right, here's what I think. Imagine you are Autocthon. Why are you making human souls, and how would you accomplish that goal?
Humans were created to provide worship to the gods, right? So a human soul (the Hun, that is) is like a little essence conduit. Their body, like all fleshy creatures, collects essence into a lower soul, a po. The Hun can then send some of that essence to a target entity, for example, a god or primordial. That's what humans are for.


((Note that humans, through self-discipline, can learn to manipulate essence directly. I believe that they are, essentially, mastering their own internal essence-directing hardware in doing so. Compare this with Dragon King souls, which are designed with this facility in place from the start in order to make them stronger.))


Now, in order to do this, the Hun needs to be able to collect essence, target something, and send it. In order to recognise things like gods, which are quite abstract concepts when they're not right there in front of you, it therefore needs to be capable of abstract reasoning, i.e. imagination and intelligence. And since these can be used to increase survival and do other useful tasks, you give them plenty of both. Hence, why humans are smart.


And as this essence - collected through eating, breathing, and sensing - passes through, it leaves little residues of itself which form memories. When a Hun leaves its body, then, it gets sucked back into Lethe, cleaned up, then installed in a new body. So Lethe is, essentially, a giant dishwasher.


Now, when the Neverborn died, vast quantities of death essence - which is very stagnant and icky - were released. This "dirty" essence clogs up higher souls, and causes them to get stuck. Their most intense essence residues - the passionate memories of life which form their Fetters - causes them to cling to that which caused them. And because this sticky death essence is heavy and attracted to other death essence, they drift down into the Underworld. But on the upside, since they still function as an essence conduit and no longer have a body to distract them, they can learn Arcanoi.

... holy over-explanations Batman!

 

[cyl]

GREAT SCOTT !


That was the best possible explanation for the human soul design.

 

[Persell]

It is wrong though. As of now, there are only human ghosts, no other species produces ghosts and yet dragon kings and other primodial species are quite capable of generating worship.


Why? Thaumaturgy, everything in creation is thaumaturgy. Opening a door is a thaumaturgical protocol that forces the least god of the door to open it. Creation and the matrix share many traits, being suspect to interaction on this level is one of them.


So, mortals do not generate worship through any special properties of their soul, but through the fact that they are born with the capability of enacting thaumaturgical rituals and generations over generations of mortal culture teaches them how to use them.


When beings manipulate essence via charms (and proper charms is something only exalts/essence channelers have) then they bypass the laws of creation, i.e. the thaumaturgical processes usually used to get a certain effect. That is why exalts are so awesome, they cheat at reality.

 

[Jukashi]

It is wrong though. As of now, there are only human ghosts, no other species produces ghosts and yet dragon kings and other primodial species are quite capable of generating worship.

This also can be explained! Humans become ghosts because humans are soft and weak, and are dependant on Lethe to stay fresh. Creation was already pretty settled when they were created; thus, there was less death. They are thus not designed to handle death like the other species, which were created with a more dangerous, savage Creation in mind. So they get stuck, while other races, such as Dragon Kings, clean themselves through different, more robust methods.


Note that death essence did not begin with the death of the Neverborn; as the hungry ghosts attest, it still existed in smaller quantities. This explains how in Autocthon, despite it not being directly connected to the Underworld for a long time, it was still possible to become a ghost; Autocthon's own sickness released enough death essence to anchor them against the pull of his own reincarnation machinery.


As for thaumaturgy, that is not how worship works. Humans only developed thaumaturgy long after their own creation, when they collected scraps of knowledge given by gods and Dragon Kings. No, if they were designed with a purpose in mind, it was a capability hardwired into them from the moment of their creation.

 

[Persell]

You do not understand how thaumaturgy and creation work and interact.


Thaumaturgy is interaction with the loom of fate and creation, no matter what you do with it. Opening a door is thaumaturgy, like I already explained. Thaumaturgical rituals like alchemy and exorcism are just rituals that work on a less instinctual level than worship or opening doors.


I suggest reading oadenol's codex or looking for the developer posts on the official forum.

 

[cyl]

I haven't read it yet, but is the Codex explicitely stating that thaumaturgy IS in fact the concept of interaction between things in Creation ? (name it protocol, law, rule... it's all the same)


But I still agree that the humans were designed to worship, as well as Dragon Kings and the race Autochton wiped out (by this creating soulsteel while absorbing a lot of death essence), I think that, since they are one of the last species ever created by primordial will, they still have this inner ability to worship written in their souls.


Dragon Kings too have a soul, thought its design makes it impossible for a dragon king to leave a ghost (even a hungry one ). I think that the race that produced soulsteel when Auto wiped'em out (.. all of them ^^) had a soul too, but it was closer from the human soul... since they produce soulsteel... A dragon king'soul cannot be forged into soulsteel for instance.


The main difference I think lies in the soul "protocols"... humans were made to be "enlightened and intelligent" creatures from the day they are born, while dragon kings have to undergo a series of trials to enlight their souls.


Me thinks the humans ability to produce ghosts can only be explained by the imperfections these creatures were created with (maybe based on the desire to create a weak, imperfect creature with the inner ability to evolve further and make great things).


No other known species left hungry ghosts, even before there was an underworld. So this imperfection that results in the creation of a hungy ghost when a human dies might lie in the design of the mortal soul... maybe mortals souls design was flawed from the start... and the Zenith caste was destined to correct these flaws (by inspiring, leading and "exalting" men, as well as setting things right with ghosts and let the dead ones be in peace).


Then the Primordials fella and underworld came... and the Zeniths demanded a raise !

 

[Jukashi]

You do not understand how thaumaturgy and creation work and interact.
Thaumaturgy is interaction with the loom of fate and creation, no matter what you do with it. Opening a door is thaumaturgy, like I already explained. Thaumaturgical rituals like alchemy and exorcism are just rituals that work on a less instinctual level than worship or opening doors.


I suggest reading oadenol's codex or looking for the developer posts on the official forum.

"Thaumaturgy", as it is referred to in game, is the collection of Arts and Sciences which allow their users to do things that humans cannot naturally do; it is described as akin to maths or science in the real world. Science is not required to open doors; science merely tells you more about why doors open. You describe it as pursuading the door's small god (I object to this, but I'll leave it for now) to open; similarly, in the real world, science tells us that opening the door is the result of several physical and biological principles and concepts.


But the opening of a door is not science. Science merely describes why doors open. Similarly, opening a door in Exalted is not thaumaturgy. If you do not require learning to do it, it is not thaumaturgy. Breathing may allow for essence to be collected in the body, but that's not thaumaturgy either. Using the knowledge of the process to accomplish something unusual is thamaturgy, but the normal act itself is not.


Try read the book yourself; it clearly describes how thaumaturgy only came to humans from higher sources. Because the only way I can see for you to be anywhere near right is if you're using a different definition of thaumaturgy than me.

 

[Persell]

Thaumaturgy is: using creations principles to achieve something.


It has nothing inherently scientific or mathematical. It is just how the world works and the opening chapter on thaumaturgy of oadenol's codex makes that quite clear, too, or otherwise how should (to name an example) come mortal sciences (not thaumaturgical ones in the ritual-rules sense mind you) all come from/can be found in the great heavenly codex of thaumaturgy?


Yes, there are two definitions of thaumaturgy, yet the one you employ is totally irrelevant in this discussion.


Furthermore your reasoning is flawed in all of the following ways (though this is probably not the limit of the flaws):


1. There is no proof whatsoever that souls are what manipulate essence, especially not the higher one as there are quite a few predators and other critters around who have no higher soul (it is what defines a human after all) and still are quite capable of using essence.


2. Awakening ones essence can be achieved through drugs, diet(!) and several other ways. "Eat more vegetables, children, it is good for your soul!" Come on, you can't be serious about that one.


3. Canon nowhere suggests that humans are soft or not resistant enough to death, quite the contrary, the dragon king souls got shattered instead of being reborn while the primodials were seemingly not able to do the same to humans (if they could, they would have done so, afterall humanity is the source of the exalted in a way), which suggest no inherent weakness, just being different. However, being different really doesn't fit into your theory.


4. You just try to find a justification for your two souls pet theory. Of course you can use that in your stories, it just doesn't change squat about canon and in canon two souls in one body are not going to happen.


Anyway, I really do not want to fight over this stupid thing, it is all in the books and the developer posts for everyone with half a brain or more to read. Of course you can still ignore it for your story, it just doesn't make any sense and is unneccessary.

 

[cyl]

4. You just try to find a justification for your two souls pet theory. Of course you can use that in your stories, it just doesn't change squat about canon and in canon two souls in one body are not going to happen.

We all agree on that.
I don't wanna fight on those concerns either... I just have one more thing to add

the dragon king souls got shattered instead of being reborn while the primodials were seemingly not able to do the same to humans

That's because Dragon Kings were far more dangerous and active in the Primordial wars than mortals... the war was won with the shatter of the original elementals, half Creation burnt, and many casualties for everyone.
Thing is a dragon king is as powerful as a dragon blooded, and while there were few thousands of DB and over a thousand celestials, there were millions of Dragon Kings... they HAD to be destroyed not to return and fight as quickly as they can !