Multiple souls
- Thread starter Jukashi
- Start date
cyl
Creepy smile
Not that I want to be annoying, but I would like to have your reference on that, it really might be important to my solar campaign.
(the pcs just conquered Rathess and are rebuilding it and I'm trying to give them "updates" on the first Age and the Primordial Wars, since Rathess is one of the few city that somehow managed to survive with pieces of knowledge... so I would like the past to be as canon as possible
)
(the pcs just conquered Rathess and are rebuilding it and I'm trying to give them "updates" on the first Age and the Primordial Wars, since Rathess is one of the few city that somehow managed to survive with pieces of knowledge... so I would like the past to be as canon as possible
)
Jukashi
Four Thousand Club
Oh- ho- ho- hooo! So, we see our debate escalate. Let us see who has the highest Charisma/Manipulation + Socialise/Presence/Perform/whatever, then.
And you can't call someone a thaumaturge just for dropping a boulder on someone else. And yet you seem to be implying that this is so.
Thaumaturgy is the profession of taking advantage of how the world works, yes. But it is implied and assumed that it is at a level higher than your average Joe McSwordswinger heating meat over a fire to feed to his pet lion.
My argument, you see, is that worship is natural to humans. Your argument, as far as I can tell, is that worship is thaumaturgy, and that thaumaturgy is natural to humans. So we're essentially saying the same thing, except that you say it's thaumaturgy, and I say it's not.
I am positing, essentially, that worship is as much part of humanity's purpose as is eating and reproducing and that doing it is no more thaumaturgy then either of those are.
Certainly there are other ways to manipulate essence; Wyld mutation, for example, which I'll bet is responsible for most of the critters you had in mind. Biological magitech is another, in which case the creature's body channels essence in the same way an Artifact or a Manse does. Human bodies aren't designed that way, oviosuly, or they'd all do it; so, the capability must come from utilising something else that they already have.
If you use that definition, then anything that anyone does, ever, is thaumaturgy. Creation's principles, after all, include:Safim said:
- - Rocks fall down
- Trees grow towards the sun
- Lions eat meat
- Fire is hot
- Sexual intercourse produces offspring
- Being hit with a sword hurts
- Sidereals smell
And you can't call someone a thaumaturge just for dropping a boulder on someone else. And yet you seem to be implying that this is so.
Because everything is recorded in Heaven. It's the bureaucracy of reality. If you made up a new thaumaturgy ritual? Bam, it appears on the books. Sorted.Safim said:
Thaumaturgy is the profession of taking advantage of how the world works, yes. But it is implied and assumed that it is at a level higher than your average Joe McSwordswinger heating meat over a fire to feed to his pet lion.
My argument, you see, is that worship is natural to humans. Your argument, as far as I can tell, is that worship is thaumaturgy, and that thaumaturgy is natural to humans. So we're essentially saying the same thing, except that you say it's thaumaturgy, and I say it's not.
My definition of thaumaturgy (Thaumaturgy: n. The profession or practise of using special knowledge of Creation's principles, particularly those relating to essence, to manipulate the world in a manner not normally possible for humans) is important because, if we use it, then worship is not thaumaturgy because worship was practised by humans before they recieved any special knowledge at all.Safim said:
I am positing, essentially, that worship is as much part of humanity's purpose as is eating and reproducing and that doing it is no more thaumaturgy then either of those are.
Ghosts are made entirely out of soul, yet they clearly can manipulate Essence; they are, in fact, better at it than living humans. Therefore, souls manipulate essence.Safim said:
Certainly there are other ways to manipulate essence; Wyld mutation, for example, which I'll bet is responsible for most of the critters you had in mind. Biological magitech is another, in which case the creature's body channels essence in the same way an Artifact or a Manse does. Human bodies aren't designed that way, oviosuly, or they'd all do it; so, the capability must come from utilising something else that they already have.
Another method of awakening essence is to shove a huge amount of essence through you with thaumaturgy, so big that you can't help but notice it and, as a result, notice all the other essence around the place as well. Good eating could simply accomplish the same thing over a longer period, refining the body's essence to such purity that your soul manages to recognise it consciously. Your body is composed of what you eat, after all.Safim said:
The Dragon Kings were destroyed because they were a threat, and they were attacking. Vast though the primordial were, they couldn't simultaneously strike at all humanity; and assumedly, the Exalted shards were designed specifically to resist this form of damage. So while any humans killed would just have their Exaltation slip off to another, safely distant human, the Dragon Kings were unfortunately within arm/claw/tentacle/appendage's reach of the primordials and were destroyed for it.Safim said:
Possession.Safim said:
If you like. But I'm still not convinced, and that means you haven't won the argument.Safim said:
cyl
Creepy smile
Mmm oki doki... I resisted well to the temptation of escalating... but I should not have... another did not ^^
HELL, that's a pretty good one... ! especially with the perfect fusion type of possession. Man, why didn't I think about it earlier...
Ledaal Kajiri
Two Thousand Club
Dragon King are certainly not as powerful as Dragonblooded. They have smaller essence pools, more specific and generally less powerful powers in their Paths, a lower maximum Essence, can only achieve the Root of the Perfected Lotus, and have to make a special effort beyond that of an Exalt to learn Sorcery. In many ways, in power they are more akin to a level between Mortal and Dragonblooded. Are they more powerful than normal mortals, even Enlightened mortals? Yes. However they are also not the source from which the Exalted rise. They, also, like Dragonblooded take years to train up to being battle ready, though for different reasons.cyl said:
Jukashi
Four Thousand Club
They can make more powerful Artifacts, though.
Ledaal Kajiri
Two Thousand Club
I don't have it with me, but I think all the numbers I mentioned are in the Core book. Check around the section on the Contagion/Fairfolk Invasion for the Dragonblooded numbers.cyl said:Not that I want to be annoying, but I would like to have your reference on that, it really might be important to my solar campaign.
(the pcs just conquered Rathess and are rebuilding it and I'm trying to give them "updates" on the first Age and the Primordial Wars, since Rathess is one of the few city that somehow managed to survive with pieces of knowledge... so I would like the past to be as canon as possible
I'm as sure about the Celestial numbers, it may be mentioned in the section covering the Primordial War...I know the number of Solars is listed in the 1E Abyssals book (check the part about the Jade Prison). The Sidereals numbers are listed in both 1E and the 2E books, and the Lunars are covered in their own books too.
I personally think the canon numbers of Celestial Exalts are a bit low, but these are the numbers we've been given, though you can obviously change them to suit your game.
As a sidenote the numbers of Solars in the 2nd Age are 150, with 100 being turned into Abyssals and 50 going to the Yozis.
cyl
Creepy smile
Dragon Kings DO kick asses, just have a look on their paths on PG 1st ed... and wake me up when a Dragon Blooded can open a sanctum or enter Yu Shan from scratch...
Of course, they are less powerful than a 300 years old Dragon Blooded... but still, they had the numbers with them.
Besides... they can be ridden by spirits easily, and become so much more powerful... but it's not the garden variety of dragon kings.
Anyway, being a solar with a full circle at 4-5 essence + lunar mates+ one or two sideral advisers, I'd rather have an army of dragon kings on my side when I'm facing a Deathlord and his army than let's say 50 or 100 dragon blooded leading mortals...
Mainly because THEY don't leave ghosts after they die, and they like dead... dead
But that's not the point...
Of course, they are less powerful than a 300 years old Dragon Blooded... but still, they had the numbers with them.
Besides... they can be ridden by spirits easily, and become so much more powerful... but it's not the garden variety of dragon kings.
Anyway, being a solar with a full circle at 4-5 essence + lunar mates+ one or two sideral advisers, I'd rather have an army of dragon kings on my side when I'm facing a Deathlord and his army than let's say 50 or 100 dragon blooded leading mortals...
Mainly because THEY don't leave ghosts after they die, and they like dead... dead
But that's not the point...
Moonsilver
Member
I don't have enough source material to work out cannon on this, but if the soul is just a vehicle to carry memories and personality before its wiped then souls are a bit lame.
The soul should be as different from the mind as the mind is from the body. The idea that an Exalted shard infuses a mortals soul with power points to this. It is not just a DVD with memories on it.
Possession is the replacement or repression of a soul’s mind by the one doing the possessing. Still only one soul for one body.
The soul should be as different from the mind as the mind is from the body. The idea that an Exalted shard infuses a mortals soul with power points to this. It is not just a DVD with memories on it.
Possession is the replacement or repression of a soul’s mind by the one doing the possessing. Still only one soul for one body.
cyl
Creepy smile
uh huh... total perfect fusion exists... but... I actually don't know if this results in one new soul composed of the two joined souls.
But I do know that when the dragon dies, the spirit dies with him...
Ledaal Kajiri
Two Thousand Club
Well, a Dragonblooded CAN learn the spell to enter a Sanctum. It's a Terrestrial spell...and they learn Sorcery more easilly than Dragon Kings. Yu-Shan, not so much. They also have a much larger breadth of charms, and many of their charms are more powerful than the Dragon King's Paths. Further, they have leadership and troop aiding charms, something Dragon Kings lack entirelly. They are officers, Dragon Kings are not. Now, an army of Dragon Kings with Dragonblooded officers and a Dawn commander fighting alongside a Lunar mate and so forth...that would be something more frightening than a mortal army with the same leadership, certainly. The only mortal force that might compete would be a force of Enlightened Gunzosha under similar leadership...and even that would be weaker. But your belief that Dragonblooded are not superior officers to Dragon Kings, and not more powerful as individuals than Dragon Kings is incorrect.cyl said:Dragon Kings DO kick asses, just have a look on their paths on PG 1st ed... and wake me up when a Dragon Blooded can open a sanctum or enter Yu Shan from scratch...
Of course, they are less powerful than a 300 years old Dragon Blooded... but still, they had the numbers with them.
Besides... they can be ridden by spirits easily, and become so much more powerful... but it's not the garden variety of dragon kings.
Anyway, being a solar with a full circle at 4-5 essence + lunar mates+ one or two sideral advisers, I'd rather have an army of dragon kings on my side when I'm facing a Deathlord and his army than let's say 50 or 100 dragon blooded leading mortals...
Mainly because THEY don't leave ghosts after they die, and they like dead... dead
But that's not the point...
Jukashi is right that they make some good artifacts, certainly. They are interesting, and have a curious role in Creation. However, that does not make them the equals of Exalted in power.
Jukashi
Four Thousand Club
It's a curious question. Dragon Kings begin powerful but progress slowly; a starting Elder Dragon King, if we go by 1st Ed. rules, is more powerful than a starting Outcaste and equal in power to a starting Dynast/Lookshian, but as time goes by, the Exalts become more powerful because they have more options.
However, a Dragon King can still make themselves useful, even when Dragon-Blooded are around. The number of Path Powers is limited, but most of them are quite powerful and nearly all of them are very versatile; they can do stuff like teleport to any place they can see, bring a tree to life to fight for them or dematerialise like an elemental. All things that Dragon-Blooded, whose Charms are based around their Abilities, find it much more difficult to do.
And of course they make cool stuff.
However, a Dragon King can still make themselves useful, even when Dragon-Blooded are around. The number of Path Powers is limited, but most of them are quite powerful and nearly all of them are very versatile; they can do stuff like teleport to any place they can see, bring a tree to life to fight for them or dematerialise like an elemental. All things that Dragon-Blooded, whose Charms are based around their Abilities, find it much more difficult to do.
And of course they make cool stuff.
Cthulhu_Wakes
Black Sun in a White World
It always comes down to the shiny toys
FluffySquirrel
Member
I'm confused by the thought of a 'starting elder' dragonking.. ..
Whaaaa? ^^
Whaaaa? ^^
Jukashi
Four Thousand Club
Sorry, my mistake. Got the terms mixed up. I meant "starting Ancient Dragon King". As opposed to a Modern Dragon King.
Sherwood
Luna's Concubine
Toys! Â I must have more toys!
Samiel
One Thousand Club
Actually it's always been my perspective, too.
The lower soul animates the body and grants base urges and emotions, things ghosts lack without special effort or magic.
The lower soul also (we can assume) is responsible for collecting essence, because without it the Higher Soul (ghosts) must depend on sacrifice and prayer.
The two-souls-for-worship model then seems rather plausible. Imagine if the Primordials created creation as a haven from the Wyld, but found that the lack of pure essence in their stable island was unsatisfying? They separate themselves by several layers from the wyld, with Creation first then Yu-Shan, and then establish systems to maintain their world. Then, they create a filter system where essence is allowed into Creation under controlled conditions (The Loom) and then collected and directed to them in a distributed, robust fashion (Mortals et al). They were then free to ignore management and play games.
The notion that Mortals can learn to harness their essence due to this essence flow makes sense by definition; mortals have essence and can clearly direct it through prayer, and several means exist for them to consciously learn to direct it to other ends. If they don't have these conscious means they can still channel essence through short-cuts like blood magic (Thaumaturgy allows blood sacrifice from the user or another, for example), or through parasitism on magical items or locations.
What has constantly confused me is how the mortal power level actually increases when they die. I can understand mortal souls gaining the knowledge to use their essence consciously by default upon becoming a being of pure essence (A ghost), but Ghosts can have a higher tier of martial arts (Up to a celestial form), have larger essence pools and have access to arcanoi?
Sure, they can't learn sorcery and they can't naturally respire essence, but the Arcanoi alone make up for this deficit in my eyes.
I'd consider a house-rule that dedicated mortals could learn very, very basic charms, such as ability-capped excellencies at 1m/d or subtle social effects, simply to balance the theme of the essence-channelling mortal soul, rather than to solve some perceived play-balance issue.
Oh, and Thaumaturgy is the learned art of manipulating reality through knowledge of natural phenomena. Those phenomena alone are not Thaumaturgy. Sorry.
The lower soul animates the body and grants base urges and emotions, things ghosts lack without special effort or magic.
The lower soul also (we can assume) is responsible for collecting essence, because without it the Higher Soul (ghosts) must depend on sacrifice and prayer.
The two-souls-for-worship model then seems rather plausible. Imagine if the Primordials created creation as a haven from the Wyld, but found that the lack of pure essence in their stable island was unsatisfying? They separate themselves by several layers from the wyld, with Creation first then Yu-Shan, and then establish systems to maintain their world. Then, they create a filter system where essence is allowed into Creation under controlled conditions (The Loom) and then collected and directed to them in a distributed, robust fashion (Mortals et al). They were then free to ignore management and play games.
The notion that Mortals can learn to harness their essence due to this essence flow makes sense by definition; mortals have essence and can clearly direct it through prayer, and several means exist for them to consciously learn to direct it to other ends. If they don't have these conscious means they can still channel essence through short-cuts like blood magic (Thaumaturgy allows blood sacrifice from the user or another, for example), or through parasitism on magical items or locations.
What has constantly confused me is how the mortal power level actually increases when they die. I can understand mortal souls gaining the knowledge to use their essence consciously by default upon becoming a being of pure essence (A ghost), but Ghosts can have a higher tier of martial arts (Up to a celestial form), have larger essence pools and have access to arcanoi?
Sure, they can't learn sorcery and they can't naturally respire essence, but the Arcanoi alone make up for this deficit in my eyes.
I'd consider a house-rule that dedicated mortals could learn very, very basic charms, such as ability-capped excellencies at 1m/d or subtle social effects, simply to balance the theme of the essence-channelling mortal soul, rather than to solve some perceived play-balance issue.
Oh, and Thaumaturgy is the learned art of manipulating reality through knowledge of natural phenomena. Those phenomena alone are not Thaumaturgy. Sorry.
Samiel
One Thousand Club
Coming back to the two-souls/past-lives malarky a moment, I also felt I should add that I've been interested for a long time in a mortal character with detailed memories of being a devout Immaculate Monk in a past life. Consider the ramifications if it emerged that a dedicated servant of the Dragons was derailed from the Path to Enlightenment, when the Immaculate Order teaches that Dragonbloods are already too enlightened to do wrong?
Just an interesting concept is all.
Just an interesting concept is all.
Zaramis
Senior Member
In creation, perhaps you have to challenge the essence through your body, limiting the things you can do? You have to channel it -through- something, after all.
And remember, ghosts were not initially meant to be, were they? When the primordials created all the mortals etc, ghosts weren't thought of, so they could have ended up outside the realm of normality..
Just tossing some thoughts out there
And remember, ghosts were not initially meant to be, were they? When the primordials created all the mortals etc, ghosts weren't thought of, so they could have ended up outside the realm of normality..
Just tossing some thoughts out there
Samiel
One Thousand Club
Yea, I kinda thought along those lines as well. I figured that perhaps there's a cache of essence tied up in the connection between the souls and the body that is released when the soul is liberated..
Ledaal Kajiri
Two Thousand Club
That's incorrect though. The Immaculate Philosophy teaches that a mortal cannot be lead astray by obeying the Dragonblooded. Dragonblooded can indeed screw up. Read the section on the Immaculate Philosophy in the Blessed Isle book. However, most mortals aren't necessarilly taught that little detail...though an actual monk would certainly understand such.Samiel said:
Zaramis
Senior Member
I thought some more on the ghost thing. Spinning on my notes above about "ghosts weren't planned" etc, it could be that as mortals and inhabitants of normal creation, a lot of the essence is used to keep them going - blood is a powerful essence after all, and it's clearly needed -inside- a mortal for the most part. Same with the rest of him or her. He's a dynamic creature that changes and that needs essence.
When he dies, that connection to the body is severed, he has no path of channeling essence ( knowing or unknowingly ) into the world. In fact, he's no longer dynamic at all, he's basically just a shadow of an essence battery. Still tied to it spiritually but no longer in a direct fashion. So now he has great potential - he can learn to use the essence without spending it unknowingly on making his body work, but on the other hand, without his body working, there is no natural storage and regaining essence like every other living being does ( blood is a proof of this ), so he has to be filled with essence through another mortal ( or exalted ) who willingly sends essence through to the underworld through sacrifices etc. Sacrifices is one of the ways that mortals "channel" essence without knowing just how. They channel essence into the deceased that eagerly gobble it up.
How does that sound?
When he dies, that connection to the body is severed, he has no path of channeling essence ( knowing or unknowingly ) into the world. In fact, he's no longer dynamic at all, he's basically just a shadow of an essence battery. Still tied to it spiritually but no longer in a direct fashion. So now he has great potential - he can learn to use the essence without spending it unknowingly on making his body work, but on the other hand, without his body working, there is no natural storage and regaining essence like every other living being does ( blood is a proof of this ), so he has to be filled with essence through another mortal ( or exalted ) who willingly sends essence through to the underworld through sacrifices etc. Sacrifices is one of the ways that mortals "channel" essence without knowing just how. They channel essence into the deceased that eagerly gobble it up.
How does that sound?
cyl
Creepy smile
You could revise your notes then, hungry ghosts always existed since there were mortals, and they too had the ability to drain essence from the living (and their blood) and use it to haunt the living.
Mortal lower soul leftovers always took (on certain conditions) the shape of a hungry ghost.
Your point on the ghost regaining is very accurate, and more on this, hungry ghosts do not regain essence when in Creation, though they are "natural" (ie expected to happen) phenomenons.
All that makes me wonder if mortal souls are THAT natural, or if their design contained certain parts of hazards... Other creatures did not leave traces of their frustrated soul feelings over death... so why humans do ?
