Other masculine and feminine?

[bonesbo]

what is your personal definition of masculine and feminine (energies)? if you exist somewhere outside the binary (like me) how do you define that?

 

[Kaztastrophe]

Masculine see anyone born with a penis who doesn’t choose medical intervention to change it.

Feminine same as above but different genitals.

The rest I will not comment on.

 

[bonesbo]

Masculine see anyone born with a penis who doesn’t choose medical intervention to change it.
Feminine same as above but different genitals.

what about intersex people who are born with both/neither/ variation of one or the other type gonad/genitalia ? what if their chromosomes give them a masculine body and/or secondary sex characteristics while their gonads are female? would you keep the same definitions for them?

 

[Kaztastrophe]

what about intersex people who are born with both/neither/ variation of one or the other type gonad/genitalia ? what if their chromosomes give them a masculine body and/or secondary sex characteristics while their gonads are female? would you keep the same definitions for them?

What part of the below quote was unclear?

The rest I will not comment on.

 

[bonesbo]

What part of the below quote was unclear?

my apologies. I thought that referred to person's gender. I thought you were previously discussing physical attributes of persons and I preferred if you clarify how you further defined those qualities.

 

[BlackoutThieving]

Isn't it just the definitions, really?

Being masculine means something has traits typically associated with men, tall, muscular, robust etc. whereas feminine is the same, but for women. Obviously these traits don't apply to all men but if you were to draw your idea of a "traditional" or "average" man they would probably be featured.

 

[CharmedRed]

I think it’s more personality rather than any physical traits. I have friends who identify as male but have very feminine personalities ( at least the ones society deems feminine) & vice versa. I have a long term friend who is binary and they are the sweetest, most caring and probably the closest friend I have. I feel so bad when people make them feel otherwise due to their physical appearance. I don’t think there is any true way to define it however, as it’s more of a personal view point. I think when someone is comfortable around another person they give off their true energy versus when they aren’t and they give off the energy they expect the person to want.

 

[SandraDeelightful]

Masculinity is what is typically associated with males. Femininity is what is typically associated with females. Not to say males can't be feminine and females can't be masculine, but it is more likely to see masculine males and feminine females.

 

[Sunbather]

Masculinity and femininity are just that. They are for their own sake. They don't have attributes or properties other than that they are what they are. Everything ascribed as feminine or masculine is socially defined as such. Someone either is or isn't, not because of their bodies or behavior or expression or actions or interest, but just because they fundamentally are.

 

[BlackoutThieving]

Masculinity and femininity are just that. They are for their own sake. They don't have attributes or properties other than that they are what they are. Everything ascribed as feminine or masculine is socially defined as such. Someone either is or isn't, not because of their bodies or behavior or expression or actions or interest, but just because they fundamentally are.

So it's arbitrary and we can call anyone masculine and feminine without adhering to a settled-on definition?

 

[Sunbather]

So it's arbitrary and we can call anyone masculine and feminine without adhering to a settled-on definition?

I mean, no, because it's a very personal and invidiual attribute so I feel like you shouldn't call anyone that since that'd be sort of rudely presumptious.

 

[BlackoutThieving]

I mean, no, because it's a very personal and invidiual attribute so I feel like you shouldn't call anyone that since that'd be sort of rudely presumptious.

So it's only to be self-described then?

 

[Zombocalypse]

what is your personal definition of masculine and feminine (energies)? if you exist somewhere outside the binary (like me) how do you define that?

Whoah...

This is a complex subject. Let me try...

If we define "masculine/feminine energies" as characteristics of either human sex, as opposed to like... Sun and moon or something like that, then...

Masculinity to me simply means strength of spirit. It's a psychological trait. And by psychological I mean the "psyche", which many old-school philosophers recognize as separate from the actual, physical brain. A strong, physical body is simply an extension (or element, if you will) of this spirit.

Femininity, I have no friggin' clue. I'm not a woman. lol

 

[VALEN T.]

imho i feel like the words masculinity and femininity vary from place to place - culture and tradition play a major role in defining them

i feel like the words originated simply because since ancient times, men are expected to act a certain way and women another, and until a certain time ago, it was considered taboo and extremely degrading for a woman to have "masculine" traits and to participate in activities that were specifically reserved for men (physical combat, for instance.) this applies vice versa as well

i believe that these words originated simply bc of our thought process and "opinions" because at the end of the day, pink was once considered a "manly" colour too ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and then it became an attribute of "femininity." why ? bc ppl started buying pink for their female children and then...around 1940s suddenly that became the norm

so it's kinda rlly confusing :/
but boy am i glad we're finally putting these gender norms aside yknow. like i feel like the new and upcoming generations are growing up in a p open-minded society w lots of diversity. i mean, sure we still have a long way to go but at least we're getting there right

 

[Jannah]

From a biological point of view it's fairly clear to me what is masculine and what is feminine. For example, men are typically physically stronger and larger than women. That's simply a biological fact and a large reason as to why they traditionally held the role as protectors and the head of the family. On this basis I think society has gone a little too far in women trying to be men and vice versa. There's been many cases of transwomen destroying cis women in sports because of the fact they're biologically men, thus have the bodily advantages of men. This is why I think maybe sports should be classified differently than they are currently, but that's perhaps a discussion for another time.

Socially, however, aside from the biological realities, gender roles are much more flexible. Traditionally, girls are expected to dress in the colour pink, play with dolls, etc. A lot of this extended into adulthood as well as women were expected to dress a certain way and look a certain way. These are not norms based in biology so if a woman wants to wear men's clothing, take interest in traditionally male hobbies, etc. and vice versa then whatever. That doesn't make them any less of a man or a woman. The ways men and women are expected to act and dress also varies by culture so that should be a hint that in the grand scheme of things it matters little.

On a semi-related note, I leave with one remark that is bound to be controversial: in trying to break down gender norms a lot of transpeople have gone about enforcing them in their own way. A lot of young boys, for example, are told they're trans simply because they like wearing frilly clothing or playing with dolls. So what if they do? It doesn't mean they're trans. They might just be boys who happen to like frilly things.

 

[The_Omega_Effect]

this is not a very good question. the way our language has evolved due to historically, there being only two genders, has essentially given every single word that is descriptive of a person's character an association or a feel that makes it seem masculine, feminine or something that applies to both. like a spectrum i guess. you cannot define "outside the binary" because there is no outside the binary unless we start coming up with new words. And so far, all the "new words" have been entirely meaningless. though im not the one who came up with thinking of it this way by any means, i read online somewhere that it is essentially just fashion which imo does a good job of explaining it.

 

[Nue]

for me, there is nothing in life that is literally masculine or feminine, but I use it to refer to things that are commonly categorised as such, even if I know that there's really no such thing. So like, I don't think makeup or dresses are just for women, and I know anyone can and should wear them if they want, but I recognise that right now, they are seen as something mostly worn by women, so I'll call it feminine. when it comes to things that are outside the binary, I just see them as neutral. like... spoons and paper clips lol. those aren't inherently masculine or feminine, they're just kind of there.


i will just say that in response to Jannah ; there's a reason trans people tend to 'enforce' gender norms, and when you know what it is I don't think the blame should really fall on them. trans people are expected to 'pass' a.k.a look as much like the traditional view of their gender as possible, otherwise they face a raised amount of humiliation and harassment. for trans women especially this often means wearing skirts and dresses and other 'feminine' clothes, wearing makeup, that kind of thing. I believe Natalie Wynn said that as a trans women, you do have to be more feminine than a cis woman, otherwise you will have more people doubting you and treating you awfully (and even then, you will still have to face that). you can even see this just by looking at how people tend to treat nonconforming cis people; they often face a lot of bad treatment as well.

I think the whole 'my kid likes skirts and dolls, maybe they're trans' thing is troublesome, but it comes from a fact that, yes, they are raised in a society where this is the norm for women to be interested in these things, and vice versa. It shouldn't be taken as an absolute sign, unless your kid straight up tells you, but it is true that even kids will notice when something is being 'gendered' so it's not a huge leap in logic rn. That's just my thoughts on it though

 

[still watching fma]

From a biological point of view it's fairly clear to me what is masculine and what is feminine. For example, men are typically physically stronger and larger than women. That's simply a biological fact and a large reason as to why they traditionally held the role as protectors and the head of the family. On this basis I think society has gone a little too far in women trying to be men and vice versa. There's been many cases of transwomen destroying cis women in sports because of the fact they're biologically men, thus have the bodily advantages of men. This is why I think maybe sports should be classified differently than they are currently, but that's perhaps a discussion for another time.

Socially, however, aside from the biological realities, gender roles are much more flexible. Traditionally, girls are expected to dress in the colour pink, play with dolls, etc. A lot of this extended into adulthood as well as women were expected to dress a certain way and look a certain way. These are not norms based in biology so if a woman wants to wear men's clothing, take interest in traditionally male hobbies, etc. and vice versa then whatever. That doesn't make them any less of a man or a woman. The ways men and women are expected to act and dress also varies by culture so that should be a hint that in the grand scheme of things it matters little.

On a semi-related note, I leave with one remark that is bound to be controversial: in trying to break down gender norms a lot of transpeople have gone about enforcing them in their own way. A lot of young boys, for example, are told they're trans simply because they like wearing frilly clothing or playing with dolls. So what if they do? It doesn't mean they're trans. They might just be boys who happen to like frilly things.

What a diplomatic way to say everything Id strive to say.

As for my thoughts on the subject, there is no proof of transexual people having biologically different brains. Nor is there proof that their functional connectivity is different. Nor is there proof that theres something genetic that causes it. There are genetial anomalies but thats about it.

Its all belief.

 

[bonesbo]

As for my thoughts on the subject, there is no proof of transexual people having biologically different brains. Nor is there proof that their functional connectivity is different.

Actually! There is proof that the brains of Transgender people experience the same amount of white and grey matter of their brains as their cis-counter part. Structural Brain Differences for Transgender People
Quote: " “We found that trans people have characteristics that bring them closer to the gender with which they identify and [that] their brains have particularities, suggesting that the differences begin to occur during gestation,” said Giancarlo Spizzirri, first author of the study. "

 

[kevintheradioguy]

The word "energies" confuses me. What do you mean by it?

But, I always understood masculine and feminine solely as story plots for some reason, even though they have nothing to do with gender, and just called that way out of a whim. Masculine plot is to go elsewhere to set things right; feminine is to stay where you are to set things right. That's... the only personal association I have.

 

[bonesbo]

The word "energies" confuses me. What do you mean by it?

But, I always understood masculine and feminine solely as story plots for some reason, even though they have nothing to do with gender, and just called that way out of a whim. Masculine plot is to go elsewhere to set things right; feminine is to stay where you are to set things right. That's... the only personal association I have.

ive never heard the plot correlations before! thats interesting! even though i would personally infer it as the other way around

in terms of sacred geometry - female energies are round and fluid and typically associated with change. masculine energies are straight and lines and static. quoting Elephant journal, “feminine is receptive and creative”, and “masculine is reflective and projective” . another way i think of it is in the terms of “left and right” brain while the fem is the creative right and masc is the logical left

 

[kevintheradioguy]

ive never heard the plot correlations before!

It's in screenwriting for Hollywood course by... I forgot who 8| but anyway, used for typing the plot. Very interesting, but named out of the blue. Has nothing to do with male of female sex, even if some people think it does.

female energies are round and fluid and typically associated with change. masculine energies are straight and lines and static.

I don't think I understand anything esoteric, sorry. I more of a guy who perceives energy as joules and calories, and certainly not as something round or straight; though I can see why someone would associate female with round and male with straight, given the general physical appearance. My relationships with esoteric is rather passive-aggressive, if I'm completely honest.

I guess, I'm a bit genderqueery in this regard, as I don't think I can really perceive something as 'masculine' or 'feminine', and for the longest time I was extremely aware of this. Before proven wrong in said awareness, and I kicked back and started enjoying my own ignorance, however pitiful that might sound. I think it's all in your head, and if you feel uncomfortable with your own associations and perception, you just need to acknowledge that and change it, consciously. I have this general idea of what I'm trying to say, but also have a hard time putting it into words.

It's like... to me it looks like another way of labelling. In a neutral sense of this word. Like, to some it's important to wear labels, others don't give a shit about them, and don't wear them. If someone has a label and feels uncomfortable with it, that only means they find labels important, and only they can make themselves change their mind about it. Similarly with feminine and masculine, the society might have these figurative stickers to plaster on certain things, but it's the choice you make whether or not to accept and follow them. Hope that made... at least some sense.

 

[kevintheradioguy]

It's in screenwriting for Hollywood course by... I forgot who

I remember now. Christopher Vogler. Pretty interesting. I got it in a bundle with Michael Hauge and Joseph Campbell live recordings, back in the day when I used to be a screenwriter for a certain project. I highly recommend those if that's among your interests. I think it was called "The writer's Journey", or another word play on Campbell's "Hero's Journey".