Lost Lunar Castes

[Persell]

Yes it was a fun debate and you are welcome.


I looked the part you were referring to up and the book itself is contradictory. On the one hand it says the weapons created by A were never surpassed while later it says, for example the airships A and the mountainfolks built for the Exalted armies were surpassed later on and faded out of service.


Guess we have to agree to disagree.

 

[ShootingStar]

Prehaps Lytek the God of Exaltation with the combination of the Lunar Exalted would be able to cure the Lunars of their' Wyldtaint'. I kindda like the idea of Lunars and their connection with the Wyld, they were kindda designed by Luna to defined Creation from it and now they are 'taint' by it. . .it is kindda poetic.


Just my two cents

 

[Moonsilver]

Well if a Lunar died during the Usurpation and for some reason his shard did not come back till now, his shard would be Wyld taint free. What if it was accidentally herded into the Solars prison? Finally it is free and from one of the three lost castes.


Now our new Lunar does not know why he is not found not to be suitable for tattooing. Alternatively he leaves in fear of the wrongness as they try to fit him into a Caste that is not his. He takes on his proper caste powers in due course.


Eventually he comes to understand he is a <insert caste here> and strives with the aid of renegade Hidden Moons to work out the silver tattoos that will enable new Lunars to take their true caste.


Meanwhile conservative Hidden Moons fear that this could break the protection that was long ago discovered. Driven by this concern many in the Silver Pact turn their hand against them. Once proud Casteless wonder in their hearts if their caste never called to them because it was not recovered and join the renegades.


If you can make a good story out of it, run with it. I see on here a lot of decent story ideas which fall foul of logic. So what? Will your players know that it is unlikely a shard would take this long to come back? How come your players even know that the Jade Prision was only for Solars? A lot of the problems raised in story development here assume the players know as much about the game as you do. If they don’t feel free to get away with it. Have a workable idea so it makes sense, but it does not have to be made out of bullet proof logic. Finally if they do know too much about the game, slap them for player knowledge or change the setting a bit. Sometimes players are sent to try us

 

[Persell]

not sure if someone else said this... but I SERIOUSLY SUSPECT That a shard would have to be purified in its Raw State.


MEaning you'd either have to Wait for all the current lunars to die off... or possibly even Kill them all... So Lytek Can Put their Shards though a Sanitization protocal.

 

[wordman]

I admit to not reading this whole thread.


Seems like if you really wanted to play a character of a lost caste, you could set up the plot such that he just exalts that way and no one can figure out why. This seriously freaks out the Silver Pact, and they suspect him of some weird form of chimerism (or similarly stigma-inducing condition), with different factions in the pact have totally different reactions and agendas toward the character.


In essence, you turn the idea of a one-time lost caste restoration as a McGuffin.

 

[Persell]

if a lunar gains ANY permanent Caste Without Tatoo's... let alone one of the 3 lost Castes...


Their would likely be MANY who would worship the Lunar almost as a messiah...

 

[Persell]

QUESTION


if it came to a choice...


how many Changing moons do you think would trade the invulnerability to shaping effects tatoos give them, for the powers of the  Waxing moon, Waning moon or half moon caste.

 

[Persell]

From a player's point of view, none. From the character's point of view, all. I'm not aware of the Lost Castes powers being defined very clearly, while invulnerability to Shaping is really powerful, but the opportunity for a character to regain a true definition of themselves and their Exaltation would be too great to pass up.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

The caste abilities of those castes are as follows:


Waxing Moon (Charisma, Manipulation, Appearance)


Anima power: As his action, a Waxing Moon Exalt could channel 10 motes of Essence through his anima. He then glowed with the silvery light of his goddess Luna and illuminated the area for (Permanent Essence x 5) yards around him as brightly as if it were a gibbous moon night. For the remainder of the scene, or until he chose to let the effect dissipate, he gained additional lethal and bashing soak equal to his essence against all creatures of the Wyld. In addition, when his anima was active, he could add his Essence to the minimum number of dice he rolled for any attack made against such creatures (meaning that, in most cases, he would roll a minimum number of dice equal to twice his Essence). This effect came into play automatically once the Lunar spent 11 or more motes of Peripheral Essence. For the purpose of this effect, "creatures of the Wyld" included Fair Folk, chimerae, Fae-Blooded and beings with more than five points of Wyld mutations (each pox counted as 1, afflictions 2, blights 4, and abominations 60.


Half Moon (Charisma, Perception, Intelligence)


Anima: The Half Moons' anima power cost five motes, and granted them extra dice, equal to their permanent Essence, to all Initiative rolls (such as join Battle, join Debate and Join War) and to rolls to detect unexpected attacks, for the remainder of the scene. This power was automatically activated whenever the Lunar's anima was filled by 11 or more Peripheral Essence.


Waning Moon (Dexterity, Manipulation, Wits)


Anima: As Changing Moon


This information can be found on page 230 of the Manual of Exalted Power the Lunars.

 

[Persell]

Okay, I had forgotten about that. Still doesn't change my opinion on it though. I think most players would prefer the invulnerability to Shaping, while the characters would want to have their true castes restored, especially if the Lunars managed to restore the castes themselves and didn't have to resort to Solar aid.

 

[Dracogryff]

*shrug* Eh, personally, if the opportunity came up in game, I'd be more than happy, as a player even, to give up the invulnerability to shaping. Being able to use Invulnerable Skin of Bronze and Burgeoning Wyld Infliction (temporary wings that ignore the knack issues of going peripheral? Good stuff) on oneself outweighs the possibility of no longer being able to walk into the wild without any risk of harm to my person IMO. Just make a version of Integrity Protecting Prana for Lunars, and what's the difference? *chuckles*


But that's me.


Of course, I'm not happy with the caste powers as they are, and am thinking of rewriting them to make them more useful in general, but that's me. I still don't like that Twilights and No Moons got all the candy and all the rest of the castes (with the exception, to a degree, of Eclipses) getting sugar free subtitute. *shrugs*

 

[tjcoonrod]

 
I just tend to default to the position that senselessly changing the fundamental aspects of the game without damn good reason is just kinda hoaky - lots of STs seem to want to dramatically renovate the games they run by turning things on their head, breaking every rule they see bothersome and drastically rewriting the atmosphere of the game as their whim dictates and concluding that the changes make the game "better"... end of the day though, the lost castes being recovered is only as epic as the sacrifice that was made to do so.  By all means, bring them back if you'd like, but I'd urge any ST who was thinking of doing so - Don't look to the book for rules on how to do it, look to the book to devise a way to make it the greatest and most epic undertaking any Lunar has ever accomplished.  Otherwise you're just taking a perfectly good exalted type, removing a large chunk of the flaws that make them interesting and turning them into a boring twinkish reflection of their first age selves.

Well, I do agree to a point on this - however, who cares if a ST changes stuff because end of the day, all that really matters if the group is enjoying the game. If changing stuff around enriches their game, all the better. Now if a ST is crazily changing stuff and the group hates it, they'll quit (or suffer), and that is silly.


I definitely agree that any major changes made should be thought out a bit, to *mechanics* not to storylines. Storylines are set up in exalted where everything is at the breaking point, and to advance those storylines worldshaking stuff *will* change, which is what converted me to the system (D20 be damned!) :twisted:


I really do not understand how, if a ST wishes to run a Lunar 'bring back the castes' story, how that removes a chunk of flaws from lunars. Honestly, IMHO, other than for storyline reasons or RP, mechanically they really suck. If anything, bringing back the lost castes and having players play them with their much crappier anima abilities only weakens the Lunars on a whole.


Bringing back, probably just a difference of opinion here, really wouldn't be boring however. I statted up a Lunar to play (game fell through unfortunately after a few sessions) - that was a 'guerilla general' concept, and I stylized him after the half moon caste - if I could have been the half moon caste, despite weak anima abilities, I would have, for RP purposes. To me, it wouldn't have been boring at all. But its better to not change it up and make it happen in game, to help progress it as a story (subplot or one of the characters goals) or even as a major story arc, than to just change it and allow them to stat it up.


And, my guess is, that if the Lunars can find a way to bring them back, why not find a way to bring them back *tattood*? Is there something that says it was the tattoos that axed the lost castes? I was thinking (probably wrong, I am fuzzy on lunars) that it was that when the lunars retreated to the wyld, that they started having the problems, then started losing castes, then made the tattoos? Am I wrong on this?

 

[Dracogryff]

That is the official answer given for such yes...and it's the one generally assumed to be correct.


However, there are other a couple other reasons given for how Lunars worked potentially in the first age.


One is that the Lunars originally shifted castes always, and the sorcerors, wanting to keep the No Moon power all the time, created the tattoos all the way back in the first age. They insisted it was necessary, and theus created the castes, and broke the Lunars, not the Wyld.


Another, the No Moons wanted the power of associated with being priests, and thus 'couldn't' fix the three Changing castes, and are hiding the knowledge to prevent the return of the rightful priests, the Waxing Moons.


It is also possible that the tattoos are inhibiting fixing castes, and it would be impossible to fix the castes. *shrugs* It all depends on how you want to run it. If you want to have the group figure out how to tattoo fix the situation, there's nothing wrong with that. I personally wouldn't, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a workable solution if an ST wanted it to be.

 

[Alabaster Anathema]

Now i must admit its not very EPIC or Dramatic as far as exalted goes


but has someone said why order affirming blow wont work?


Now i havent picked up the core book in ages so im not sure if it has the shaping keyword


but even then shattering the silver cage takes care of that


Since the only reason they cant assume the other three castes is because of the wyld taint on their shards right?

 

[Persell]

Dunno if this has been pointed out or not already (as this is a rather long thread), but Taboo doesn't attune you to any of the Castes.  It makes sure you don't succumb to chimerism.


You are still Casteless with all the pros and cons of being Casteless.

 

[Coyotekin]

It is pointed out thought that the Taboo is not used for any of the Silver Pact Lunars, it is only for the benefit of the Casteless. I thought it was interesting though.

 

[Persell]

It is pointed out thought that the Taboo is not used for any of the Silver Pact Lunars, it is only for the benefit of the Casteless. I thought it was interesting though.

That's because they don't need it.  Their tattoos protect them from the warping effect of the Wyld.


Also, touching on the subject of the Lunar shards... It's stated somewhere in the book that they ALL have a tiny bit of the Wyld within them, and naturally so.  That's not a design flaw; that was intentional.  It's why they can shapeshift so fluidly.  It's also why the Wyld has an easier time taking hold of their minds, bodies and souls.  First Age Lunar shards would still have the Wyld "taint", and removing it entirely would probably destroy the fundamentals that make the Lunar Exalted who and what they are.

 

[Moonsilver]

Being able to throw of Siderials attempts to track you down by going into the wyld is very useful, and I play that it anti divination effects last a while too.


So not sure that many would.

 

[Persell]

It's stated in the Sidereal book that creatures with the "outside Fate" tags are not trackable through the Loom until they significantly affect the fate or destiny of a person, place or thing.  


Lunars are innately creatures within Fate, but I see no reason the Wyld cannot cling to them long enough to give them some benefits of being a creature "outside Fate".

 

[Coyotekin]

Some kind of residual Wyld after having spent some time in there recently?

 

[Persell]

I'd rule that it would have to be a significant time spent recently in the Wyld. You wouldn't be able to just pop in for a few days to gain the resistence to Loom-searching.  More like a month at minimum, but preferably longer.

 

[Coyotekin]

"Ewwwww, I've got Wyld on me..."

 

[Persell]

I think the 2E Lunars book specifically mentions this. Many in the area talking about the Elder Lunars and how long they typically spend in the Wyld...but I may be mistaken.

 

[Moonsilver]

I have not had time to read the whole thread, but my understanding was that the Lunars lost their Castes in the Wyld, simply remembering what Castes you used to be was not enough to regain them. This equally goes for Castless. The Wyld broke a part of the Lunars connection or relationship to Lunar. Later on the former Hidden (No) Moons found the knowledge to recreate 3 of the 5 Castes.


They may have purposely not passed on the knowledge to reform 2 of the old Castes. If that is so discovering such knowledge or rediscovering it would be an epic achievement with dangerous HM adversaries.


For my game the HM’s just found there genuinely could not find the lost 2 Castes, but the Lunar player will be lead on the path to rediscovering the lost Castes. She will eventually find that there are Ancient Lunars who like their new responsibilities thank you very much. Cue ancient Lunar adversaries.

 

[Coyotekin]

I do not htink it was so much that they were lost as it was more along the lines of everything they knew before would never be the same and so much had changed. Not realizing in time what would be necessary to maintain them like they eventually realized for the other 3 castes is what made a difference. A theory of mind. One of those if we knew then what we know now.....