JUST an idea

D

Diamond Viper

New Member
So, this is one more of my class-spawned ideas on Exalted, coming afetr 3 years of gaming and a respectable Crafts 5 score and 5 Essence.


So, this is the main idea. It;s the Age of Sorrows, right? The world was under the mighty clasp of the Realm until recently, but now the Threshold has become a hive of small feudal hierarchies of all Anathema. Dangers have increased and the world is in need of adaptation.


So far, we have rifles (maybe Twilights could start mass producing them to change the face of war), First Age Weapons of Mass Destruction and a few airplanes.


So...how about trains? I mean, could Exalts actaully make a Trans-Esastern Threshhold that would allow swifter travel and easier commerce? Would such an idea survive in Creation as is? What will be the repercussions?
 
So...how about trains? I mean' date=' could Exalts actaully make a Trans-Esastern Threshhold that would allow swifter travel and easier commerce?[/quote']
I don't see why not. I think the Guild would have major interests in backing such an undertaking.


However, I think that would probably be more of a peace-time project, once things have stabilized a bit.


-S
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Nah, I seriously DOUBT things can stabilise at that point, especially after the first guerila raids on House Ragara's powerhouses in the East.


Let's not forget to mention the siege of Nexus and the Naval Battle of the River Province at this stage of the campaign...


In a nutshell, the Civil War has started. There's a bunch of REALLY pissed off Solars and Lunars who want to get back on the DBs, Lookshy is forming an Alliance with the Marukan fortress nation our Dawn has established, etc, etc...
 
AFAIK, railroads only get built in wartime to transport troops and materiel. They also have a nasty habit of getting blown up.


-S
 
Though the topic has given me a cool image of some kind of levitating high-speed train that uses manses as waypoints and draws its power from them.


-S
 
Uhuh. So, it IS a bad idea, ain't it?


Unless they are protected by spirits that would consider the railroad to benefit them (building stations in places of worship, for example), or by employing a small army of Tiger-Warriors and militia to protect it.
 
Railroads require a lot of steel.  The first designs were made in Ancient greece, but they did not have the metallurgy to get it done.  I doubt that anyone, with the possible acception of the Deathlords, the Jadeborn, the Realm and Lookshy have the technology.  Anyway, it would be a Resource 4 purchase per mile, that's how much steel we are talking about.
 
I use rail roads--or rather carriage trains that follow ley lines--in my Modernis setting, but there's no reason that the Threshold couldn't produce a set of rails--more likely to come from the Realm and the Guild controlled lands, just for the resources needed to build a network of taps and shuffle Essence, but in the Threhold, where Solars are active, it could be just the sort of thing to spur commerce, and get the Guild to consider which pony they're going to back when things in the Realm get dicey.


The thing is, your Solar is going to have to be making a lot of treaties.  Not just with the kingdoms where the stations will be, and that's going to involve some political legwork if your ST has any dap, but also with the tribes and critters that these big ass rails, or crushed jade laced cables, or whatever you want to represent the path--in my setting, carriages just hover over ley lines, but the "lines" are held in place by teocali-like temples that regulate the flow of Essence--run through.


That setting also has a huge, Realm controlled and maintained Mana Net that drains Essence from the Elemental Poles and uses it power the Realm and most of their Mystech. Your 'rail' system may not be that invested, and instead may be powered by the actual engine--requiring what for fuel is up to you.  


If the engines need fuel of some sort along the path, then you're going to need stations to take on wood, jade, bundles of Awakened Spirits that will scream into the good night as their Essence is ripped from them, or what not.  In my setting, I use a lot of Demons as motive force--trapped into prepared stones to provide power, and then often these Aetherstones are recharged from the Mana-Net. The advantage in the setting is that the Demons or Spirits that are trapped, are Bound so that they can also provide guidance as well.  Carriages don't neccessarily need drivers, appliances perform their tasks after getting instructions.  Again, this sort of system is reliant on a large industry base to provide Aetherstones, Binding services, a huge kickback system to the Celestial Bureacracy to provide Spirits who can be Bound into service as punishment for transgressions, and a network of temples, teocali, and stations to transfer Essence across the Creation.  Not neccessarily what you might be looking for--so perhaps the trains use some other form of power, or the Solars who are building the network, are the only ones who have access to Bindings to put Demons into Stones to power the trains.


This would make the network possibly attractive to the Guild--not just for moving things quickly in the Threshold, and your team would have to provide security along the way, but also for the chance to steal or borrow the ideas and tech for their own. Consider the Guild and the Realm suddenly interested in a sort of corporate espionage campaign early on.  The secret of what runs your trains is going to be very attractive.  As well as the treaties that will have to be signed to get the rails or network through barbarian lands and through Lunar domains.


You are probably going to need the assist from Lunars.  Not just to get their permission, but their help in watching their tribes so that the barbarians don't get an attack of the cutes and say "Oh sure, come on through!" and then raid the trains on a regular basis.  It will probably happen anyway, but you want the local powers to at least give lip service to the security of your rails.


Increased trade in the Threshold is probably going to lead to increased communication.  While you're at it, a system of mail drops and message services tied to the rail stations could also come along.  Easier communications, and then a network of message beacons along the secure rail lines, a sort of mystical telegraph could then occur as well--with  riders then radiating from these stations to deliver important intel and information along these routes. Which means the Guild is going to be very interested in getting the skinny along their routes.  The DB's are going to be interested in the tech as well, and add that to their list of things to try to co-opt or steal.


It will garner the attention of the Hunt, if you've got Solars performing all sorts of Sorceries to get this network off the ground. And at the head of the negotiations, and heads of security.  If your group is covert, the Hunt is still going to be watching, as will the Eye and the other DB Houses.  


You could also get a whole 'nother organization that springs up around the rail stations.  Not quite Pinkertons, but a security force of mercenaries, empowered or given letters of marque by the kingdoms in the area, or even the Realm for that matter, to watch out over goods and property.  If these fellas then get contracts to bring in folks, using the rails, the stations, and their increased communications to reinforce their network, you've got a rapid action force of mercs who could take care of Guild or lawmens' business along these routes.  


You're also going to get bandits. Fat targets always get bandits. Which means you've got an escalation in the security forces, and their actions. And that can lead to abuses that your Solars may want to either watch, or escalate for their own purposes.


That the Deadites are going to pay attention, and possibly work their fell influence should go without saying. That the Fey are going to regard this sort of thing with palpable dread and horror should as well--all that order...
 
Railroads require a lot of steel.  The first designs were made in Ancient greece' date=' but they did not have the metallurgy to get it done.  I doubt that anyone, with the possible acception of the Deathlords, the Jadeborn, the Realm and Lookshy have the technology.  Anyway, it would be a Resource 4 purchase per mile, that's how much steel we are talking about.[/quote']
How about Wyld-Shaping Texh then? I could roughly produce 3 miles of steel with 3 succeses on an essance roll.


Jak, the setting is WAY too cool to pss up. That is what I'd like Creation to Be, and frankly, with all those uber-Exalts trunning around it will in a century or two.


I never said the idea was easy and I got plenty of ideas concerning that thanks to you. Yeah, everybody's gonna go against it, but hey! We;re a Solar Circle


The hole effin world is agianst even picking our own noses...
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Why limit the train idea to Creation?


 Having an enterprising Deathlord or two come up with the suitable artifact conveyances, and the miles and miles of black steel tracks ranging through the Underworld...
 
High speed rail lines would have the easiest time on the Blessed Isle; getting financed and built, protected and maintained.  Out in the rest of the world, it would be harder.  


What comes to mind when I first read this idea was the rail system in use durring the Civil War.  The North had about tripple the infrastructure that the South had, and it made a major difference in the course of the war.  They were a target for both sides in the fight, but the North had the industrial ability to repair and expand their rail system more than the South did.  Using this in Creation, say, in the area of Nexus/Lookshy, the Empire (or anyone else for that matter) would have to be blind to the potential military effects for the next time they think about invading the area.  That would be one heck of a force multiplyer; you may have 5000 troops.  Instead of spreading them out you can mass your forces in one spot then zip them off to protect someting else.


Maintaining a locomotive would probably be less expensive than one of the many airships in use, and you can move more cargo and equipment on a train than you can on a airship.


And would the Celetial Bueaucracy assign a little god to be in charge of the rail line?  Hmmm
 
I think it's definately a viable idea, though, due to the current nature of Creation, it's unlikely that anyone's going to build a creation or even threshold spanning railway.


It COULD be built, but it's unlikely to be something that a random Solar on his own is going to build.
 
I think its a good plot idea with lots and lots of potential.  Depending on the story you can have political and combat orientated plots strewn throughout.


In one session I ran, the Circle found an ancient 'train' system that ran through the mountain range of the Thousand (its Creation equivilent).  It connected to several places, but only one place could be travelled to at once.  Each 'carriage' was assigned its on Little God to collect fares.  They were all similar; little, middle aged men with grey, thinning hair covered by black overalls and a peaked cap emblazoned with a strange symbol.  They would moan incessently about the poor wages, lack of respect and grafitti.


~FC.
 
I would love to see a railway system designed to connecte the Scavenger Lands, for example.  One that connects all the cities, with large, Essence Waypoint stations at Sijan, Great Forks, Nexus, Lookshy, Good Harbor, Melevhil, Northeast Spoke, Mishaka, the Jade Manse, and even maybe converting it into a Ghost Train as it enters Thorns, turns around, and starts working itself through the Scavenger Lands of the Underworld back to the Black Chase.  That way you have a railway system that works both in Creation, the Underworld, and that allows for people to go to and fro.


Heh.  It's a nice idea, actually...
 
Seiraryu said:
I would love to see a railway system designed to connecte the Scavenger Lands, for example.  One that connects all the cities, with large, Essence Waypoint stations at Sijan, Great Forks, Nexus, Lookshy, Good Harbor, Melevhil, Northeast Spoke, Mishaka, the Jade Manse, and even maybe converting it into a Ghost Train as it enters Thorns, turns around, and starts working itself through the Scavenger Lands of the Underworld back to the Black Chase.  That way you have a railway system that works both in Creation, the Underworld, and that allows for people to go to and fro.
Heh.  It's a nice idea, actually...
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Sorry, its already been done.  


Its called the London Underground  :lol:


~FC.
 
Hrm... so would the Deathlords make their trains or whatever from the undead as well as soulsteel?  I think that'd be a bit cool, and right up their alley... a massive machine made from some huge beast's bones and muscle, with a soulsteel boiler or some kind of soulsteel essence drive.


and then some abyssal or ghost could make a scale model using the skeletons of squirrels, small dogs or children or something and have his own train set.
 
That be too complicated just stick to old fashioned steam like the Hslanti do and let basic Thaumaturgy and good old engineering know how do the rest. For an extra buck grab a Need Fire elemental and stick it in the engine for virtually unlimited high end power. More likely I bet a Bronze Faction Sidreal would be one of the few people capable of pulling the resouces necessary for this, since Quintessence can essentially become anything he could just lash together a couple of dozen Artisan type spirits and set them to work making the steel then supply it through a mortal cat's paw.


In our game I play a dynastic thaumaturge that runs a small but growing navy of prototype steam driven Iron Clad type battleships. He finances most of it himself but uses a combination of Alchemy, divine help from his Sidreal Bosses and contracts with a number of Earth and Fire Elementa; courts.
 
Three miles of railroad steel, depending on gauge and strength, would weigh around 528,000 lbs.  I think I would require a bit more than three successes on a Wyld-Shaping Roll, just for the mass alone.  Even if you get it, how are you going to move it from the Wyld to where you want to build it?  It would take, on average, 2700 porters to move a three miles section, and I doubt they will be making more than ten miles a day.


As for Soulsteel, I doubt there is enough in the Underworld to make a single three mile section, much less an entire railway system.  It takes around one soul per 10 lbs of weight to create anything out of Soulsteel, so it would require 52,800 souls to create a single three mile section.


You have to do the railway the hard way.  If it could just be done with Charms don't you think that the First Age Solars would have done it?  The Jadeborn did it, but they did it the hard way, using Charms to enhance, as opposed to replacing, production.
 
Why use steel rails?  


You've got magic. Spirits. Small gods. Demons. Sorcery. Who needs stinkin' rails?


I used ley lines, and powerful magics to restructure the flows of Essence, so that the carriage trains could glide along their paths--the 'rails' in the Long Second Age aren't more than marks in the land, mostly for safety's sake, as opposed to anything tangible.  The teocali and temples that dot the countryside to mark the nodes of the Mana Net are quite visible, and since everyone relies on the flows of Essence, these nodes are inviolate, even by barbarians.


This might not hold in your worlds, but it still begs the question--if you can make ships fly, why do you need metal rails for your trains?  A few Spirits to drive the wheels--or even float the suckers off the ground--and roll on.  I would suggest a means to power them--Spirits would get tired after a while without some sort of Essence flow--and regular stations, to get the feel of a train network, and to give the folks who are building the network bases of operations to launch either economic forays, or military missions.  Either way, you want regular stations so that trade can flow in and out.
 
Because rails are cool! That's what mainly has struck me reading this thread. The whole idea reeks to high heaven of coolness... so to speak. The vision of huge steel or jade locomotives adorned with mystical ornaments hammering across the planes of Creation on rails is just... I lack the words... breathtaking. And the soulsteel locomotives of the underworld!!! Right out of Sandman! This idea really rocks my boat :)


A more rational explanation for using rails is the cost. Using rails eliminates the need for levitating the colosal weight of these engines and their cargo. You only have to think of propulsion. Of course that may be offset by the cost of building and transporting the rails, as have been mentioned, but that much depends on the individual chronicle and setting. If you had a large enough workteam of elementals, demons and/or little gods the problem may be solved.
 
I would suggest a means to power them--Spirits would get tired after a while without some sort of Essence flow--and regular stations' date=' to get the feel of a train network[/quote']
That's why I think having them travel along the dragon lines and draw power from manses maes a lot of sense. There are already thousands (millions?) of invisible paths of power crisscrossing Creation than intersect at focused points. One only needs design a vessel that can tap in and "ride" these beams.


-S
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Still--That's what I use.  The lines are chalked out, so that folks can be warned when they are close to the 'rails' but otherwise there isn't a lot of clutter on the countryside--save for the temples that regulate the flow of Essence.


I prefer the idea of trains that float, just a little bit, as opposed to riding physical rails. But that's because in the Long Second Age Setting, you've got the whole of Creation bound up with this Mana-Net--big theme for the setting, especially with the Reality Towers siphoning off Essence from the Wyld and expanding the Creation every year.  There is a bit more of a modern feel to the setting.  


But we're still talking magic trains.  A huffing, chuffing locomotive is nice, but a couple of Water Elementals, and you don't need any steam, do you?  A Demon or two driving the wheels, and what do you need a firebox for?  Maybe a sacrifice bin, something to feed the Demons for their trips--a slave or murderer or two per trip, maybe?


For a bunch of Solars looking to return the world to the wonders of the First Age, this is a great quest, and maybe the players are the ones who need to decide how to procede.  In the end, this a fun idea, and I think that you can get much coolness from it, no matter how you approach it.


I think that Soulsteel rails might not be in order, but perhaps made from polished bone might be more apropos--especially if the train itself was crafted from dead flesh and bone as well, and powered by the souls of ghosts who've pissed the Deathlords off...now you've got pure comedy gold.
 
Three miles of railroad steel, depending on gauge and strength, would weigh around 528,000 lbs.  I think I would require a bit more than three successes on a Wyld-Shaping Roll, just for the mass alone.  Even if you get it, how are you going to move it from the Wyld to where you want to build it?  It would take, on average, 2700 porters to move a three miles section, and I doubt they will be making more than ten miles a day.


Right. My bad. Maybe then using Elementals to Extract the Iron necessary? Or using automatons and demon slaves for that matter?


Why use steel rails?  


You've got magic. Spirits. Small gods. Demons. Sorcery. Who needs stinkin' rails?


3 words.


Too. Damn. Dangerous. Most Spirit Courts will initially react to the fact of the exploitation of their subordiantes and feuds will commence between wilderness and civilization spirits. Demons? Hell, they'll ty to thwart your every attampet after a while. Sorcery is unstable, unless you fix it somehow with worshippers, thaumaturges, etc.
 
Spirit Courts? Bribe the bastiches.  Ask them to hand over their troublemakers and ne'er-do-wells.  With all the ruckus that Spirits are making, bucking the system, the Celestial Bureacracy might well welcome a little forced servitude for their less than cooperative members, to help get the others in line.


Demons? You bind the bastiches, and ride herd over them. Word the bindings right, and you've got nothing but cheap motive power.


Sorcery, unstable?  That's a new one. The backdoor codes for the Creation are unstable?  We're not talking Thaumaturges and their iffy Enchantments, but Sorcery.  Celestial and Solar. Not the parlor tricks of the Terrestrial Circle. I don't think we're talking about the Realm opening up a rail system, but Solars bringing back the wonders of the First Age.


The DB's with all their resources, are still limited by their lack of power. They just can't bring the right Demons over, or call up the proper level of Sorcery needed--they are only Terrestrials after all.


Solars on the other hand...they've got the dap to pull out all the stops, and with an economic miracle in the Threshold burgeoning, you can bring the Guild over to the Solar side of the equation, so long as they are in for their cut...


You'd prefer using Elementals to mine for material, and rely on Demons to do the same, but not to be motive sources, which would be cheaper and easier than extracting tons upon tons of material, then refining it? When a Solar Twilight could call upon the Mandate of Heaven to get permission to run a carriage on dragon lines?  Even petition to get the lines adjusted a bit? Use Sorcery to build stations in a fraction of the time?  


I think that the one good thing for putting rails in, would be the high iron content that would make the Fae all squamish about running about--possibly even getting them to launch major raids against such construction efforts. But then again, you could tailor a Sorcery effect to target the Fae who approached your dragon lines with a hefty curse as well.


If you're going to go ahead with a major public works project, you might as well go all out.
 
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