Immortality

[Aasharu]

So, immortality in Exalted is rare, but not unheard of. You have Gems of Immortality, which halt aging, while the Verdigris Circlet confers true immortality, including nigh-indestructibility. Abyssals are agelessly immortal, while Sidereals are fated to die after a few thousand years, no exceptions. And then you have the Mask of Winters offering immortality as a prize for a martial arts competition...


Anyways, I suppose my question is on the Sidereals, in particular. While a Sidereal is fated to die, and no force in Creation can change that, what about things from outside Creation, such as the Yozis, the Neverborn, powerful Fair Folk, or even unknown Primordials? Would the Verdigris Circlet, itself an artifact of the Yozis, be capable of granting a Sidereal immortality? How about the Mask of Winters "prize," and, furthermore, how would the Mask of Winters grant immortality? People's thoughts and opinions on these random musings?

 

[Smeggedoff]

I think the Mask of Winters would generall confer Immortality with a short pitch beginning with "Just have a look in this small metal cupboard here..."

 

[Persell]

Immortality really isn't rare at all. ALL gods/spirits/demons are immortal. Ghosts are immortal by definition. Solars and Lunars can achieve it easily through charm usage. Abyssals get it for free and it is implied that Infernals are as well.

 

[Aasharu]

I was talking more immortality for the Exalted, instead of just long life. How exactly can Solars and Lunars achieve immortality? I wasn't aware of any charms that could do that.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Lunars have Bear Sleep Technique, which allows them to hibernate for a time, and not age or need minor things like food, air and water during that time. Any Exalt except a Sidereal, or those Exalts naturally immortal (Abyssal, arguably Infernal, Alchemical), can benefit from a Peach of Immortality or so every now and again and stay young forever, so long as they can get access. It's potentially possible that through the various methods of giving mutations to someone, an Exalt might be able to be granted the Immortality Blight, though that is generally associated with Godblooded, some Storytellers might allow someone to use any number of other methods to grant such. Certainly one can always sell their soul, become an Akuma, gain access to Demonblooded mutations and have part of the deal include immortality, it's one of the standards of the whole 'selling my soul for X' requests. The Gemstone of Immortality of course is an excellent method, as are other artifact or heartstone methods...note that the Scepter of Perfect Order the Perfect of Paragon bears is an example of such...as well as how badass a mortal with immortality can get. Make friends with a species normally immortal, and get them to use a Bracelet of Shared Life to give you similar immortality.

 

[Aasharu]

Where is it implied that Infernals gain immortality? Is it actually mentioned anywhere, or is it just an assumption based on the primordial nature of their powers?

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Where is it implied that Infernals gain immortality? Is it actually mentioned anywhere, or is it just an assumption based on the primordial nature of their powers?

When asked about GSP lifespans, Neph replied with rather cryptic answers. From what has been hinted here and there. GSP's can become Primordials or transcend in other ways that equally make them ageless.

 

[Aasharu]

Ah, presumably through some high-essence charms of some sort. After all, Cecelyne has the Soul-Sand Devil Shintai that lets you permanently gain the ability to materialize and dematerialize, so presumably, higher essence charms would go further.


Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that Infernals, more so then any other exalt type, would have such a charm. After all, almost half the Infernal charm set involves permanent enhancement in some way.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Ah, presumably through some high-essence charms of some sort. After all, Cecelyne has the Soul-Sand Devil Shintai that lets you permanently gain the ability to materialize and dematerialize, so presumably, higher essence charms would go further.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that Infernals, more so then any other exalt type, would have such a charm. After all, almost half the Infernal charm set involves permanent enhancement in some way.

Considering the charm sets they use. It should not come as a surprise if we start to see stuff like Shinmaic Underpinnings Reconstruction Prana or Third Circle Soul Birthing as Charms.

 

[Aasharu]

Which actually brings up a bit of a tangent; if a Green Sun Prince were to learn Autocthon's charm set, and be high enough essence, would he be able to craft exaltations of his own? Or rather, is there any reason he wouldn't be able to?

 

[Persell]

Not really, no. No reason he couldn't.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Not really, no. No reason he couldn't.

Yes and no.
If "I Am Are Craft Exaltations" is just some Charm, sure, it's actually pretty damn easy.


If it's more complicated than that, it's possible it was a one-time thing, or can't be duplicated in the universe as it stands.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Not really' date=' no. No reason he couldn't.[/quote']Yes and no.
If "I Am Are Craft Exaltations" is just some Charm, sure, it's actually pretty damn easy.


If it's more complicated than that, it's possible it was a one-time thing, or can't be duplicated in the universe as it stands.

I want to say off the top of my head. Didn't Holden imply that it's more the latter during the recent discussion along those lines on the WW forums?

 

[Plague of Hats]

Not really' date=' no. No reason he couldn't.[/quote']Yes and no.
If "I Am Are Craft Exaltations" is just some Charm, sure, it's actually pretty damn easy.


If it's more complicated than that, it's possible it was a one-time thing, or can't be duplicated in the universe as it stands.

I want to say off the top of my head. Didn't Holden imply that it's more the latter during the recent discussion along those lines on the WW forums?

He said that it was something that wasn't going to be nailed down, because it's one of those things that doesn't need a canonical answer. I'm willing to say that, categorically, anything more complex than "I have X Charm" is much more interesting. I don't doubt that he would agree.

 

[Ker'ion]

Other than that Primordials aren't Yozis.

 

[Kyeudo]

Crafting Exaltations was probably the result of applying Autochthon's Charms and his ridiculous dice pool and his unlimited access to the best materials the universe could offer and his knowledge of the underpinnings of reality to the task of creating a semi-divine weapon.


If an Infernal could convince Autochthon to teach his Charms and if that Infernal was Craft specialized to the max and if he could figure out the processes upon which Exaltation was founded and could gather the needed materials, including the Essence from beings as transcendantly powerful as the Celestial Incarnae and the Elemental Dragons, then yes, he could probably make new Exaltations. Each of those ifs is a huge story in itself.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

He said that it was something that wasn't going to be nailed down, because it's one of those things that doesn't need a canonical answer. I'm willing to say that, categorically, anything more complex than "I have X Charm" is much more interesting. I don't doubt that he would agree.

As would I.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Other than that Primordials aren't Yozis.

It's unlikely the distinction between "Yozi" and "Primordial" is really meaningful in this context.

If an Infernal could convince Autochthon to teach his Charms and if that Infernal was Craft specialized to the max and if he could figure out the processes upon which Exaltation was founded and could gather the needed materials' date=' including the Essence from beings as transcendantly powerful as the Celestial Incarnae and the Elemental Dragons, then yes, he could probably make new Exaltations. Each of those ifs is a huge story in itself.[/quote']Were I running a game, in most cases I'd seriously consider including some ingredient that, after their initial construction, makes it impossible to produce more Exaltations either practically or literally. I'd go so far as to say that Autochthon's personal Charms aren't even necessary, as long as you have some kind of appropriate Charm or artifact and know what you are doing.

 

[Persell]

The Yozi have Primordial charms so the distinction is moot for this instance.

 

[Kyeudo]

Were I running a game' date=' in most cases I'd seriously consider including some ingredient that, after their initial construction, makes it impossible to produce more Exaltations either practically or literally. I'd go so far as to say that Autochthon's personal Charms aren't even necessary, as long as you have some kind of appropriate Charm or artifact and know what you are doing.[/quote']
I think Autochthon has a few Craft Charms that transcend Solar Craft Charms, else why would Sol Invictus need Autochthon's help?


However, there is a unique element that is needed in the creation of all Exalted: The willing donation of a chunk of power from a being as transcendant as at least one of the Five Elemental Dragons. Without Sol Invictus's cooperation, there will never be more Solars.

 

[Plague of Hats]

I think Autochthon has a few Craft Charms that transcend Solar Craft Charms, else why would Sol Invictus need Autochthon's help?

Because the Sun might not have any appropriate Charm or artifact, nor might he know what he is doing? Ignis Divine is always impressive, but he isn't exactly an exceptional craftsgod. Certainly, Autochthon might have Shinmaic Substrate Architecture as a Charm, beyond the bounds of any but an akuma-type or uncursed Solar with Primordial Principle Emulation to learn. But unless the creation of Exaltations required a specific form or arrangement of shinma which does not and can not exist now, or some other equally unique and lost property of the universe, sufficient knowledge, elbow grease and artifacts should be equal to the task. This does not account for whether it would theoretically take a billion years of artifact development to do something like it, but the impossibility of something in the face of artifice is a dubious assertion.

However, there is a unique element that is needed in the creation of all Exalted: The willing donation of a chunk of power from a being as transcendant as at least one of the Five Elemental Dragons. Without Sol Invictus's cooperation, there will never be more Solars.

Unless you break and subjugate them, or unless such a process does not require willingness at all.

 

[strawberryleaves]

How would one go about crafting something on the level of Terrestrial Exaltations, anyway? Celestial Exaltations are numbered and limited, while the number of Terrestrial Exaltations apparently have no limit other than that based on the population pool of potential Exalted.

 

[Dahak]

If an Infernal could convince Autochthon to teach his Charms and if that Infernal was Craft specialized to the max and if he could figure out the processes upon which Exaltation was founded and could gather the needed materials, including the Essence from beings as transcendantly powerful as the Celestial Incarnae and the Elemental Dragons, then yes, he could probably make new Exaltations. Each of those ifs is a huge story in itself.

You missed surviving having Autochthon removing the unapproved aftermarket add-ons from the Infernal's Exaltation Shard. I can't see Autochthon being in favour of the Yozi's modchipping or anyone who would want such a shard.

 

[Kyeudo]

Ignis Divine is always impressive' date=' but he isn't exactly an exceptional craftsgod.[/quote']
The Unconquered Sun's divine portfolio boils down to "Be the Best at EVERYTHING." That's why he's the Chief Incarnae and why his Exalted are the most powerful. There is nothing Sol Invictus can't excell at.

Unless you break and subjugate them, or unless such a process does not require willingness at all.

Which is another story in itself. That battle alone would reshape the face of Creation for all time. All the Yozis would want front row seats and be munching on demonic popcorn.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Ignis Divine is always impressive' date=' but he isn't exactly an exceptional craftsgod.[/quote']
The Unconquered Sun's divine portfolio boils down to "Be the Best at EVERYTHING." That's why he's the Chief Incarnae and why his Exalted are the most powerful. There is nothing Sol Invictus can't excell at.

Some perfection is better than other kinds of perfection. 10 threshold successes on every artifact crafting roll is, indeed, impressive (alternately, he gambles on his relatively low and specific Craft scores and a regular use of his 1m/success excellence, but he's pretty unlikely to even match a threshold of 10 on a roll with difficulty 6+). But that's really all the high-order crafting that the Sun is throwing around. It's still going to take him five years to finish that Artifact •••••. He's a big picture, epic leader kind of a guy. You delegate the Essence 8 god of magitech, who has special craft powers all his own, to actually build the thing. It's going to take more motes and Willpower, but even an Essence 3 Solar can pretty handily outcraft the Unconquered Sun, unless you deliberately ignore one of the two main aspects of what makes artificing hard (namely, that it is time-consuming).