I am going to rant about weapons now(warning)

[Gtroc]

so why exactly do weapons have a martial arts minimum to use them? as I understood it all weapons are melee weapons, and then on the side they are martial arts weapons. so why is it a straight martial arts minimum to use a weapon, why not make it (appropriate ability) minimum. either a melee of three or a martial art of three. seems kind of dumb to do it any other way, as many times you want to use a weapon but not the martial art(s) assossiated with it. also there are some weapons that require martial arts that do not seem to have an assossiated martial art. what the heck is up with that? just kind of ranting here as it has been bugging me for some time now.

 

[Cynis Filthist]

pick up a sword, you can pretty much get the gist of using an axe, a mace or a club.  However pick up a sword and then pick up a 7-section-staff...


I guarantee black eyes and bruises.

 

[Jukashi]

As far as I understand it, Melee focuses on "common" weapons, such as might be used in an army (because it's easier to train people to use them), like swords, axes, spears, etc. Meanwhile, martial arts weapons are typically much more difficult to use effectively, being things such as spread-the-water knives, hook swords, and sword-chuks.


Or, to put it another way; Melee uses weapons which you're all right using if you've only trained in using the weapon; any mook can pick it up and, at the least, not hurt himself too badly. Whereas martial arts weapons need such finesse that you already need to have trained your own body to a high level of dexterity before you can even begin training to use them.

 

[Gtroc]

so then the idea is that melee is for the unskilled, whereas martial arts is the pinnical of all things fighting? I disagree, in exalted melee covers all combat with hand to hand weapons, by its definition. martial arts however covers unarmed fighting, by definition. you only get to use martial arts weapons with your martial arts when using supernatural martial arts. therefor I must submit that melee should be the skill used for seven section staves and hell for wrackstaffs as well. melee is for hitting something with something else at close range. martial arts is hitting stuff with yourself at close range. it bugs me that if I wish to use a weapon, I have to take martial arts, even though I have no intention of ever using martial arts. that's like having to take ride in order to use a boat.

 

[Jukashi]

That's not exactly what I meant. Melee weapons do require skill, of course; the point is that they don't need anything besides weapons skill.


Martial Arts isn't just about unarmed combat; it's about turning your own body (and essence, with the supernatural ones) into a powerful tool in itself. That's why it's recommended they take stuff like Athletics, Resistance, Dodge and Integrity. Martial artists train to make themselves faster, stronger, tougher; the things Melee users don't need to do, since they train to use weapons, shields and armour.


So the reason Martial Arts weapons need the skill is because it's the best way of representing the above-average competance with one's own body required to use them in the first place, because they're so complex and/or dangerous to the user.

 

[Jack1]

Go watch Fearless. In the final fight when Jet Li and his opponent swap weapons; That's what those minimums are supposed to represent.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

There are actually two styles that will let you use all of those weapons. Mantis Style has all Martial Arts weapons as form weapons, and Celestial Monkey will let you use anything at all, once you master it. Until then, you're naked and weaponless, though.

 

[FluffySquirrel]

Personally, I've always read them as the required martial arts skill to use -with- martial arts. Incorporating a long dagger on a chain into your martial arts isn't easy, so you need to be skilled enough to do it, but anyone with melee can use it with their low melee score if they like.


Fighting chains one could argue should have a melee minimum took.. but for things like Sai's?.. err.. no.. pointy ends go in other person, there, you're ready to use a sai.

 

[wordman]

Fighting chains one could argue should have a melee minimum took.. but for things like Sai's?.. err.. no.. pointy ends go in other person, there, you're ready to use a sai.

Except that sai are primarily for disarming, which isn't easy.

 

[Chaka]

Personally, I've always read them as the required martial arts skill to use -with- martial arts. Incorporating a long dagger on a chain into your martial arts isn't easy, so you need to be skilled enough to do it, but anyone with melee can use it with their low melee score if they like.

Hand a chain daiklave to a melee based Exalt and watch them cut their own face off... Martial Arts ratings are usually there for a specific reason, and generally make sense.

 

[Lord Ben]

Nah, melee is for weapons.  If a melee guy wants to use a hook sword that's fine.   Martial arts minimums should be for using it with the martial arts skill.  IE, martial arts is for punching, to also use the hook sword you need to be trained.

 

[Persell]

See I've always figured the Melee lets you use all weapons as long as you fit the dex and str requirements or are willing to take the penalty for not.  I figure that since melee is a skill that is suppose to be as broad as say lore that it would include all weapons.  I mean just because you don't train to do crazy things like balance on a stump while cutting falling leaves doesn't mean your not just as dedicated to your skill.  I think that if you learn melee you've spent a lot of time with a lot of weapons and a chain with a dagger on the end isn't that different from the chain with a grappling hood you practiced with last week.

 

[Jukashi]

I don't agree at all. All the Melee weapons are simple things - essentially a stick with extras. They're effective, but still simple. A guy who trains to use a sword can use a club pretty well - they use the same basic attack patterns. The Melee ability teaches you this stuff, things like grip and angle, about shields and armour, about fighting other people with weapons.


Now, let's say a swordsman picks up a nunchuk. If he tries to use it with his existing skills, he will hit himself in the elbow. If he's lucky. A chain with a dagger on the end? Even worse.


And no, it's not like the grappling hook he trained with last week, because a) a grappling hook is for grappling onto buildings and things, not people and b) he wasn't training with a grappling hook last week in the first place. C'mon. Even ninjas don't fight using their grappling hooks. Ever even see Batman using his pulley-gun like that? Not even then. The closest thing is a harpoon, and that's just used like a spear.


He can use a hook sword or a sai, but he'll just be using them like he'd use a scimitar or dagger; he won't be making full use of them. It's not enough to train with the weapon, you need to have already trained your own body to a level high enough that it can keep up with the weapon's complexity of use.

 

[FluffySquirrel]

It's not enough to train with the weapon, you need to have already trained your own body to a level high enough that it can keep up with the weapon's complexity of use.

Bit like training melee then? Swordfighters tend to have to keep their body in trim condition too.


Meh, it's all very well to give semi plausible reasons.. but ultimately, the whole MA/Melee thing is just an rpg simplification.. there's no set answer.. if someone really wanted to learn to use sai's, they're not forced to learn kung fu.. but in exalted, kung fu is cool, so they get used.


*shrug*


Just houserule it whichever particularly side of the fence you're on.. but there's never gonna be a real answer

 

[Persell]

Now, let's say a swordsman picks up a nunchuk. If he tries to use it with his existing skills, he will hit himself in the elbow. If he's lucky. A chain with a dagger on the end? Even worse.

I just see nunchucks and chains as not so fancy flails, which clearly fall under melee.  


The grappling hook was tossed in 'cause of a pc of mine who was much more effective with his grappling hook then his sword.  

He can use a hook sword or a sai, but he'll just be using them like he'd use a scimitar or dagger; he won't be making full use of them. It's not enough to train with the weapon, you need to have already trained your own body to a level high enough that it can keep up with the weapon's complexity of use.

And that's something we agree on you have to meet the attribute requirement.  Someone who can't lift a 2-handed sword can't swing it very well just as someone that trips over his own feet is gonna really hurt themselves with that 7 section staff.


 I just think that MA focus on training the spatial perception to hit people with your natural weapons (fist, feet, hips, teeth if your vicious) and some weapons that are related to the style you practice.  


 While melee focuses on learning attack patterns for a broad variety of weapon types of which I don't think martial art weapons are excluded from. (although if I was feeling mean I would impose a 1 dice internal penalty for picking up a new weapon type for the first time if was something you've never used before, the penalty would disappear after a few scenes of use, this would go for both melee or MA weapons)

 

[Jukashi]

Flails and nunchuks are very different, actually. A flail is just swung around in a circle to give it more momentum, essentially; plus you usually wear armour when using it. Nunchuks get flipped about all over the place and you need a very good awareness of your own body to ensure that you don't hit yourself and that you can catch the other half. And that's where the martial arts comes into it.

 

[Gtroc]

so the crux of the argument seems to be that melee is for people with less skill than martial arts. I have to disagree, if you focus only on the weapon rather than hitting with your fists and feet, you should be better with that weapon than someone who spreads their focus over unarmed as well as armed attacks. a brief aside on flails, they are actually quite a bit harder to use than nuchuks. I know this from personal and painful experience. it's like going from kicking a soccer ball to kicking an american football. they may be similar in nature but in practice the flail requires a completely foriegn and complicated skill set. the implication seems to be that melee is for people who were not clever enough to take martial arts. I think that is a grave diservice to all the weapon based heroes in myth and hystory, Musashi, Achilles, Little John, Roland, Ivan, Attila, and so on. also for solars, melee is a more powerful charm tree than any celestial level martial art. it has perfects.

 

[Jukashi]

Melee focuses on different things than martial arts does, and some weapons are just more suitable to the way martial arts is taught than to the way Melee is taught. The reverse also applies. In any case, half the reason some weapons are associated with Martial Arts is because in Exalted the kind of people who use them ar generally going to be martial-artisty types than straight warrior-types.


It's not the skill of the people, it's the complexity of the weapons themselves. It's generally much smarter and more effective to use a plain weapon rather than something that you could accidentally stab yourself in the kidneys with.

 

[Ph34r]

I would have to agree with Jukashi's theory. Think about it, a person who goes around swinging a Goremaul, what does he need to know. Pick up the not hammer end, swing. Hopefully hit. A person weilding a seven sectioned staff(doesn't this seem to be the favorite example for marital arts weapons?) needs to know what stance he needs to be in when he swings to hit this guy here and to dodge while not accidently whacking himself in the noggin at the same time.


For a modren day explanation, which will hopefully make more sense, say you pick up a sledgehammer, how do you fight? Once again, swing, maybe hit. Say you pick up a long chain will a bit of concrete on the end. Now try fighting with it, sure you may do fine, but what about when you start doing fancy tricks with it spinning it around your head, goin' all ninja on the guy your fighting. Unless you are trained in using that specific sort of weapon(ya freakin' ninja) you will beat yourself senseless.

 

[magnificentmomo]

I don't think the argument is that melee is less skilled, just differently skilled. And looking at the weapons, the ones that require martial arts are the weapons that are used in a more dance-like, martial artsy fashion. The ideology behind them is different. When using a sword, the skill is involved in knowing how to stand and move, when and where to strike; no easy task, but a different task than a hook sword. Hook swords are used as an extension of the body to parry, and disarm; a different set of skills.


edit: looking in the 2nd ed source book one of the tags on hookswords says they may be used with martial arts or melee, so does the seven section staff, this entire argument is moot.

 

[Lord Ben]

Meh, same thing could be said about martial arts.  You do all this training to learn how to punch bricks so why is it assumed that after you're able to punch at a certain level you can suddenly weild a seven section staff.  Whether you're talking about sledgehammers or punching the seven section staff is radically different from either.


Sure, you could say martial arts is more than punching.  But I could say melee is more than just smashing things with a hammer.


My characters tend to have martial arts so that I don't get grappled as easily and I can punch people when my sword isn't within reach.  Yet somehow according to the rules I'm capable of using all these advanced weapons... silliness works both ways, just use whatever works for your game.

 

[Gtroc]

edit: looking in the 2nd ed source book one of the tags on hookswords says they may be used with martial arts or melee, so does the seven section staff, this entire argument is moot.

the argument is not moot as the requirement to wield the weapon is martial arts only. not melee or martial arts, whichever is higher.  the fact that after you have the prerequisits, then you can use whichever is higher is a waste of skill points and effort, and makes no logical sense to me. that is the whole point of the argument. I think a change is needed. (of course I think that the way they do appearance in Exalted is also a bit strange and silly, should be used like appearance in Adventure)

 

[magnificentmomo]

I personally interpret "may be wielded with martial arts or melee" to mean that the requirement is interchangeable. I think this is a completely different rule from the one that states you can use whichever is higher simply because it would be redundant, and as you said pointless.


"Common sense is supposed to guide interpretation of the rules." - Michael Goodwin, Exalted author

 

[Ker'ion]

And no, it's not like the grappling hook he trained with last week, because a) a grappling hook is for grappling onto buildings and things, not people and b) he wasn't training with a grappling hook last week in the first place. C'mon. Even ninjas don't fight using their grappling hooks. Ever even see Batman using his pulley-gun like that? Not even then. The closest thing is a harpoon, and that's just used like a spear.

I remember seeing Bats gut-punching someone, I think it was a specifically resiliant tough, with his bat-grappler-gun-thing and then firing it into their gut to add extra power to the impact, as well as popping the joker in the face with it in one of the numerous cartoons.

Meh' date=' same thing could be said about martial arts.  You do all this training to learn how to punch bricks so why is it assumed that after you're able to punch at a certain level you can suddenly weild a seven section staff.  Whether you're talking about sledgehammers or punching the seven section staff is radically different from either.[/quote']Well, you could run with demanding as an ST that they have to have a specialty dot in said weapon to use it properly.  Though you might want to expand the maximum number of specialty dots allowed in an Ability to allow for such instances.
Though, as an option to the Seven-Section-Staff, you might also note the Kusari-gama:





Melee just doesn't cover proper use of this thing.


(SWEET!! I FIGURED OUT HOW TO PUT A LINK ON A PIC!!!)


( :twisted: MUSTN'T ABUSE THIS KNOWLEDGE :twisted: )

 

[Sherwood]

Oh, dear God, run for the hills!  He has gone mad with power!