I am going to rant about weapons now(warning)

[Sherwood]

Back on topic, some weapons, such as the sword, are wielded differently in a sword fight compared to a martial artist using a sword with a particular technique.  Melee focuses on using the weapon to attack the target, while Martial Arts focuses on using your body as a weapon, and you by benefit of your training, incorporate this weapon with your technique without cutting off your foot or smashing your face in.  


Any idiot can swing a staff.  It takes a bit more finese to use a seven section staff while whirling around to keep your DV up.

 

[Gtroc]

so again the argument seems to come down to melee fighter=unskilled moron, martial artist=skilled fighter. this is why I do not like the way martial arts is in Exalted. technically a "martial art" is any artform of a martial nature. therefor if you use a weapon, fight, stand in line, march, or even write manual for a military you are a martial artist. I think they should have called it unarmed combat, and then made the charms comboable with any other charm or some such. then you could develop truly terrifying martial arts using multiple schools of fighting. that's just my personal rant though, and it has little bearing on the discussion. the point is that it seems that people seem to think there is more skill involved in martial arts than in melee. i have to disagree, martial arts(save for supernatural) are used fully unarmed. punching, kicking, and blocking(which are all that is covered by the skill) are not any more skillful or dificult than being a master swordsman or whatever weapon you prefer. the implication of superiority of one over the other is just silly.

 

[Ker'ion]

I see Martial Arts as being more based on a dextrous and balanced type of movement.  Melee seems to be more of the hack and slash, but is more versatile as it can be used with a large number of weapons while Martial Arts can only be used with the weapons you are specifically trained in.


So, Melee= 30 to 40+ weapons at a moderate skill level.


Martial Arts= 1 or 2 weapons at an advanced skill level.


Both have their own bonuses and drawbacks.


Besides, there are numerous modern Martial Arts Styles that specifically incorporate weapons into their design, so the idea of only allowing supernatural Martial Artists to incorporate weaponry into their fighting styles seems to be based on faulty logic.


Weapon based M.A. styles are common now, so why wouldn't they be as prolific in the Second Age, if not more so.

 

[Gtroc]

read the description of the martial arts skill for the unarmed combat definition. also if we are going to wax poetic on martial arts, I have already expressed my opinions on how I think that should run. technically melee is the origional martial art. empty hand techniques were stylized and recorded later, in ancient Greece, india, and china.the emphasis in combat has always been weapons, there for the logic should be that melee is martial arts and what is known as martial arts is superfluous(sp?). the point I am trying to make, is why is a something that is by definition a weapon(and therefore a melee weapon) requiring me to get an unrelated skill?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

*snorts* Uh, huh. The Greeks didn't study unarmed combat at all, their respect for wrestling skill was entirely based on homo-erotic opinions, and not at all for combat applications. Really.

 

[Gtroc]

read up on Pancraton some time, it is(arguably) the first recorded martial art. it involved strikes with arm and leg as well as grappling, and was well known throughout the mediteranian region as well as Persia.

 

[Vanman]

so again the argument seems to come down to melee fighter=unskilled moron, martial artist=skilled fighter.

I don't think that's what people are saying. I think what they're saying is the two skills require different skill sets. If I were running a game (and, in fact, in the game we just ended). if you have martial arts but no melee, then with a martial arts weapon you're fine, but with a daiklaive or sword or axe, you're fucked. Simple as that. In my game, we ended up screwing ourselves because the three characters all had Martial Arts but no Melee. We had a weapon that was instrumental in bringing down the Big Bad but no one was very good with it because none of us had the Melee ability. So your continued assertion that everyone (except you) thinks Meleeists are unskilled morons and Martial Artists are skilled fighters holds no water.


No offense, Gtroc, but your prejudice seems to be blinding you to what folks are saying. I don't think a single person here thinks meleeists are unskilled morons and martial artists are the only skilled fighters. What they're saying, to repeat myself, is that the two abilities require different skill sets! Except, of course, that a Melee fighter can use most martial arts weapons.


As someone pointed out previously, the rulebook says you can use the higher of Melee or Martial Arts when using a Martial Arts weapon. If you don't like the Martial Arts requirement for some weapons, it's your game! Golden rule it. Allow the Melee ability to be used in place of Martial Arts for those weapons if you don't like it. It's as simple as that.

 

[Moonsilver]

The problem is one purely of game design, not one about real swordplay or martial arts. They got rid of Brawl because that was an artificial division. In a game where you are creating skill sets, what these skill sets are called and can do is always open to debate.


Using a sword is more intuitive than using a seven section staff, but a master of the sword is not less skilled than a master of the seven section staff.


I use Melee ability for melee weapons and Melee/Martial arts ability for MA weapons. It is simple and works well. Yes it makes little sense, but then gaming rules can be like that.