How would the Dynast's react to PROOF of the truth?

Agreed, but I don't see the Immaculates or the Dragonbloods as a whole as being cut-out antagonists. Far from it, I see that the dragonbloods are the most 'human' exalted type, and the most three-dimensional. Perhaps because they are supposed to be more natural and down to earth, and because their charms are so 'weak', they seem more like humans given more power than they rightly deserve than mighty heroes of legend given mandate by the gods.. that makes them interesting to me.


I also like playing the Immaculate Faith as a good/bad influence as a theme, given that of the players I have that give a hoot about the faith, they usually despise them utterly. And then I point out and show how, aside from killing so-called Anathema, they help the people and protect the world from renegade gods, demons and fair folk. They offer hope of enlightenment to opressed people everywhere, that if they get on with their lives and try to be good to each other, they will be rewarded with happiness and a better live next time. So what if it's a lie? It's a nice one for people with no chance in a world of great powers.


Thing is, as soon as you start talking about siderials and dbs being in cahoots at some level, it does kind of become a us-or-them affair, because the DBs may have helped make the immaculate faith, but they have fallen for their own myth now. And if they found that they were actually catspaws (Which they aren't really. The siderials don't control the DBs, they just have great influence), they'd reject it and blame the concept on these anathema (that they do have scant record of, mind), who I think they'd promptly kill at every opportunity as a society. Although chances are that they will have a few sympathetic elements who'll side with the siddies (particularly those who graduated from the heptagram and got spell'dd), charms like "Ten thousand dragons fight as one" reinforce the idea that dragonbloods are in that respect polar opposites of Siddies: when push comes to shove, they band together and form a nation of exalts of one mind.


And for the siderials, that one mind would likely have little positive things to say.
 
Also. DB's using "Elemental Battlefield" or whatever it's called, as a cooperative effect. Damn scary. Who needs combat sorcery ;P


And I agree strongly with both of your points, hehe :) And also, the DB's dont always see the IO as a thing that's only good, cause it gives them power. Many of my players see it as a lot more -duty- than power and right to rule. Duty to uphold Creation, to defend the common people, to bring peace and prosperity to the citizens of the realm, because of their elevated status as DB's. They see themselves as another type of people, who because of their powers and essence, have responsibility to make sure peasants live a good life.
 
Sato said:
Given the two options, though I prefer neither, i would say 1 is most likely, though it would probably be a bit more introspectively pragmatic than "Oh gee, I like priviledge and whiping people because I'm eveeel!"  In a world where all paths are balanced precariously over destruction, 'the ends justify the means' doesn't sound so wicked.
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first its pronounced "evil" learn to spell ok?


And secondly, I DO believe in "the ends justify the means"


but it requires that the ends be worthy


which I dont think they were in this case.
 
Sato said:
Given the two options, though I prefer neither, i would say 1 is most likely, though it would probably be a bit more introspectively pragmatic than "Oh gee, I like priviledge and whiping people because I'm eveeel!"  In a world where all paths are balanced precariously over destruction, 'the ends justify the means' doesn't sound so wicked.
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first its pronounced "evil" learn to spell ok?
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He's being witty dumbass, learn that yourself.
 
Sato said:
orionstark1482 said:
what makes u think that they DON'T know the truth. the world was ruled by corrept and wicked Anathema and our ansestors took them down what they don't know is that even today they are siderial pawns
THAT would piss them off
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As it's been said before' date=' the DBs find out, the Siddies won't be around much longer.[/quote']
The charm that the siddies use (can't remember what it's called) that allows them to walk unseen isn't nearly as fool proof as it sounds.  It's machinically impossible that the heads of the dynastic houses DON'T know about the sidereals.  Considering that Mnemon is a high essence sorceress further solidifies this.  The ruling elite have to know about the sidereals and they are obviously complicit of them.  It's too improbable for it to be any other way.


Second, the DBs are not pawns of the sidereals.  They are allies.  The sheer amount of unbridled power that the Dynasts wield in creation reflects that.  A pawn is someone that you use only long enough to serve a purpose and then take a fall for something; the sidereals helped build the realm to last.  Just because the sidereals happen to have a motive (the survival of creation) doesn't mean that by helping ensure that vision among the DBs makes them pawns.  It is a common goal that they all work towards...  Most DBs probably want a strong empire if you asked them, so why does it matter if the Siddies help them make it?  Just because the sidereals are not fully transparant about their role in creation doesnt mean that it's malicious.  Further, the sidereals have always maintained the role of advisors to the Empress... the SE is certa


inly not just a figure head, which she would HAVE to be if you want to argue that the DBs are pawns.


Third, it's silly to believe that the dynasts are the mindless prisoners of the religion that they helped create.  The Scarlet Empress certainly knows of it's origin, so why would she willfully leave her children ignorant of it?  I'm sure it's on a need to know basis, and certainly it is within their best interest to keep things status quo.  Honestly, what DB that knows is gonna rock the boat when it keeps them at the top of creation?  Certainly not every dynast knows, but the heads of the houses most certainly do.  


Honestly, I like it this way: it makes the DB just a little bit more pragmatically evil... which is worse? that you are the ignorant beneficiary of a lie or you help maintain it for your personal benefit?  Yeah, that's what I thought...


Edit: the question was posed "why would the Empress tell her children about the sidereals"... the answer is so that when they eventually find out they don't blow the lid off the whole thing by accident.
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Cathak Cainan would appear, in the Fire aspect book, to have no idea.


And I'd think one or two dynasts might a single shred of decensy somewhere inside them.
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the siderals dont use threefold binding of the heart.


this needs to be understood.


the spell they use is more permanent, at the cost of being narrower.


it just restricts the conversations their able to have.


e.g. their not able to communicate, by word, or writing, the existence of anathema at the heptagram.
 
lol yes... just pointing out that the "wait until someone succeeds on the willpower roll" bit is invalid.


a lunar or solar who learned of the truth and wanted to cause a disruption could counter it....


but ... to be honest.... I highly doubt most sorcerers would go on a blabbing spree, even if that happened.
 
Not to turn such a thread to moralistic debate, but please be more polite Pteroc. You aren't very good at spelling yourself, and I so far haven't seen anyone take you up on it or accuse you of ignorance.


Secondly, I would never shrug at "The Ends Justify the Means" after atrocities like Eugenics in Germany and America and Ethnic cleansing. The ends do not justify the means. The means redeem the end.


As to the spell, I was pretty certain it was threefold binding, and I don't think canon allows a spell without a weakness to exalts. In other words, a spell that simply says "You, mr. Exalt, can never do X ever again, ever" is totally out of style for Exalted, where an exalt always gets a chance to avoid such binding. Hence, 3FBH utterly controls mortals, but allows yearly resistance by Exalts.


Now, the fact that few if any Heptagram students have blabbed is likely a result of the Siddies wisely using elders with spurious essences, so that the roll is at difficulty 6 or more, but someday someone will break the spell. They mightn't know they were under one, of course, as it can be performed without their knowledge and they would put their new lack of respect for the previous master to a lessening of reverance for a loved lecturer. But one or two of them might remember the casting, and might resent it and start causing trouble.
 
Why would the Realm do ANYTHING??? The state of things is currently in their favor. True, it's declining, but they're still the biggest political powerhouse. Even the warring houses can get much of the Threshold to do their bidding.


"What's that? The Anathema were really servants of a wise and just sun god? We were their loyal servants? That's nice, but I'm not giving up my position. Now, bring me a twelve your old girl and a donkey..."
 
Quite true, in fact. I believe the conversation was derailed by the supposition that proof of anything would shift human stubborness. Proof of something one way or another never shifted paradigms in real life, why would it affect decadent families of demigods?
 
Indeed, the "truth" about the Usurpation would only matter if/when Solars who cared about it enough rose to prominence.


The term to consider here is "realpolitik". While the race for the Scarlet Throne is on and the threat of the Solars is far away, only the most forethinking of Dragon-Blooded would be expected to worry about the truth of the Usurpation. If, however, the Realm were to descend into civil war and a powerful Solar-led "Golden Empire" were to arise, matters might quite quickly change...
 
So I just read through all 8 pages of this debate, there may be more by now but I decided to stop. It is interesting to me that with all the debate and thought that went into this conversation that it could be summed up by pointing out that despite the knowledge of the truth, human stubborness would previal....


it is a sad sad day :oops:
 
Why would the Realm do ANYTHING??? The state of things is currently in their favor. True, it's declining, but they're still the biggest political powerhouse. Even the warring houses can get much of the Threshold to do their bidding.
"What's that? The Anathema were really servants of a wise and just sun god? We were their loyal servants? That's nice, but I'm not giving up my position. Now, bring me a twelve your old girl and a donkey..."
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Did you notice I put that as option on the two possibletys I saw.


also Im asking about individuals not some widespread "the realm opens up to surrender to the solars"


what I was thinking of was the possiblety of a dragon blooded scholar or archaelogist (possibly one who allready had weak faith, and little position) finding such irrefutable proof.


e.g. finds a reference to it searching through a first age city, then summons up some elementals, and they, after dancing around the issue admit they were well aware of the falsified nature of the immaculate texts, but had been too afraid of the immacluate bullies, to say anything."


dragonblooded has seen irrefutable evidence of the truth+ Dragon blooded has a infintesmal speck of decensy somewhere in his soul= Dragon blooded defects.
 
I haven't been following this thread too closely, so apologies if it's already been brought up:


If some scholar dug up "proof" of this nature, and started yelling about it, he'd be quickly discredited by either the Realm itself, or Bronze Faction operatives, who would manfacture "proof" of their own to refute him. He'd probably also be killed.


-S
 
Well, if he was truly quiet about it, nobody would be the wiser, so I'm sure he could just "retire" someplace remote and be left alone.


-S
 
also Im asking about individuals not some widespread "the realm opens up to surrender to the solars"
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Then why is the title asking the Dynast's reaction? It seems pretty clear cut in the opening post that you were looking for a broad generalization. Yes, you're right. There can be some scavenger lord Outcaste somewhere who digs up the true history of Creation and shits himself, going "ZOMFG! I MUST SPREAD T3H TRUTH!!!11one1".
But, for the most part,and also answering the topuic itself, the DYNASTS will shrug it off as either nonsense, or not give a rat's ass despite how forceful the evidence is. They're (for the most part) decadent greedy hedonistic pigs that crush the common peasant beneath their thumb. They wouldn't let the status quo be changed over some ancient history
 
oh reason for the generalization is because ... I was curious how likely any given dynast would be to have either of the two reactions I suggested.


oh on the "all great house heads" know the truth bit, again Cathak Cainan seems to have no shred of an idea, and be thoroughly brainwashed.
 
Any given Dynast would nor have those reactions though. Like I, and many others, have said, they'd either disregard it as lies and blasphemy, or completely ignore the entire thing, as acknowledging it would upset the status quo. They wouldn't scramble to hide it from the peasants, they're scared shitless enough to believe the Realm anyways. I mean, read up on Realm history a bit...last time a Solar tried rallying a rebellion, the Empress used the  manse to project images of the elemental dragons, condemning all that served him to death (not sure what page number, but I know I read that somewhere...). The average peasant is not gonna give up nearly 8 centuries of superstition and beliefs, and neither would the average Dynast. After all, current beliefs raise the DYnasts to living gods...
 
uh thats not neccessarily a solar... no ones sure WHO or what it was.


and currently no one has control of the imperial manse.


An idea... whats been discussed before is the dynasts finding out about the siderals and butchering them wholesale as anathema.


the IRONIC thing is.... that then their auguries etc, would grow weak to the point of being completely ineffectual,  as well as all the ir intelligence services etc.


how long would it be before the lunars, the deathlords, or SOMEONE came in.
 
The siderials have never offered the Realm any protection from the Deathlords, as they have no means to detect or predict them. The Lunars, sure. But the proposed "something" is probably cthonic to the point of being beyond a Siderial's ability to auger.


I'm a fan of the idea that the Realm has a great deal of stuff up its sleeves. Lookshy obviously has massive stocks of powerful artifacts, and uses them all the time. The Realm is known to have similar stocks, but outside of the navies you see very few of them. They don't have the defence grid, but what if the Empress set up a secret propaganda system and never used it, composed of artifact similar to the dream broadcaster in Wonders?


Even without such systems, the Immaculate Faith is everywhere in the Realm, and they are plenty powerful enough to put down rebellions or insurgencies.


As to the proof itself, look at real life to see the results. Irrefutable proof that this atrocity was done by this government instead of this terrorist. Irrefutable proof that the bible as written and accepted is mostly incorrect, compared to old versions of the same. Irrefutable proof that this law of physics or that assumption of science is wrong*. Proof that this political regime or that cult of personality is based on shakey if not outright false foundation.


People don't listen to irrefutable proof. People listen to exactly what pleases them. And on the Isle, people like the immaculate faith.


*In this, I specifically except so called "Intelligent Design". That is the biggest heap of shit I've ever seen.
 
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