Viewpoint Hot take: Multi-paragraph posts are unproductive

[Coco Adel]

I get the sense that my statement of 'I won't write more than necessary' was misconstrued as 'I don't like to do a lot of writing'. That's not the case. I meant exactly what I said, I won't write what's more than necessary for that post. I won't elect to add details that don't contribute to the development of the story, I won't restate things without some reason that benefits the development of the story, I won't put in extra things that don't need to be there. I decide what is necessary for every post and write it out accordingly.
Perhaps people's ongoing issue with not filling out dialogue with redundant descriptions of actions and tone do have more to do with attention span. I said a thing, but maybe because I didn't describe my tone and body language while I was typing it, you decided I said something else. Weird phenomenon. If it helps, imagine my tone to have been neutral and decisive, my facial expression to be mildly annoyed, and my body language to be still because I don't want to kick my computer off my lap. There, now you know I meant the words I typed in exactly the way I typed them, and I've been redundant so hopefully it sticks.

Well, first of all, good for you, I never said you had to, nor do I care if you decide to post more than you want to. I'm pretty sure I blatantly all but said do you sweetie. Nowhere did I say you had to conform to what I wanted...but I'm the one putting words in your mouth right?

I do not sign up for rps wherein I know I don't like the rules. That would make no sense. I never said anything about trying to have rps with people like that. Again, I mean what I write, thank you for putting words in my mouth. What I did say was that I was disappointed by the pervasiveness of post length requirements. For some reason, I like to think that a lot of people on here are good writers, and that the plots they post up reflect this. But then that rule pops up and I know that something prevents them from enjoying the kind of rp I enjoy, where people are capable of expressing a lot in few words, or being capable of discerning the difference between a good time for many details or few. I said I was frustrated because it bars me from interacting with potentially good writers, while at the same time saddening me to realize that so few who say they've been rping for years are capable of the aforementioned actions.
TLR: I wouldn't play with somebody like you because I'd hate everything about it and there are so many like you, which drastically limits the pool of people I can play with. I have less of an issue with how you like to write than how many of you there are. Sorry not sorry for the salt, people putting words in my mouth is my absolute biggest pet peeve.

Again, never said you signed up for anything you don't like. I was giving an example that pretty much amounted to this is a non-issue and a personal problem. I said that multi-paragraph posts were not unproductive because people who enjoy doing them never have a problem being productive with those who enjoy it.

You can be salty all you like about something I never did or said, stay salty for all I care. I find it ironic that you say your peeve is people putting words in your mouth because it's mine too and that's exactly what you did.

Oh and umm, Dov by the way I don't actually have post minimums on my Rps in each and every one of my RP's I say and I quote "I don't have line limits, as long as you are trying and give a an appropriate response I do not care" but I'm glad you would never RP with me because I'll be damned if you lie on me out here.

 

[Superfly47]

Ironic that a thread about the problems with multi-paragraph posts is full of multi-paragraph posts.

 

[Dov]

On page 10, it kind of proves my point, hehe.

 

[Wandering Fae]

I...don't really see how it does? Neither of the posts made so far on this page really proves your point as one isn't even a paragraph and the other pretty much just says they never put words in your mouth and not to lie on them.

I mean if you want to say they are unproductive to this thread that is one thing that might be argued, but it hardly proves that multi-paragraph posts are unproductive in an RP. The most substantial post made on this page pretty much just tells you not to do what you accused them of which is putting words in their mouth.

With all due respect, now you just kind of sound...a little like you're trying to start something.

 

[Dov]

I did mean the conversation as a whole, as in the conversation has gone for 10 pages and regardless of the length of any reply, I've still only seen one valid point against my original statement. That one point being that long posts are inherently interesting and useful for people who are especially invested in world building that may or may not have to do with the plot.

 

[Grey]

Dov; buddy, friend, pal, comrade,, you know I'm generally with you but that is straight up like asking me to justify loving goth girls. I'm right, of course, but damned if I can or should ground that in rigorous logic.

 

[Dov]

'Scuse the tangent, this post has less to do with the original topic.

Fair enough. I'm not as good at defending my arguments when I'm cranky. That guy who said I was bullshitting about my stance that telling people how much is the correct amount to write is inherently wrong got me hella salty. Not much of an excuse but it is what it is. Also the mention of compromise and communication. People don't change their minds about this, it's stupid to try to talk somebody out of their stance because, as is the only thing we've actually learned here, there is a clear division between the concise folks and the world building folks. I've liked this conversation because I've been shown a stance I can at least understand, even though I know I'd hate playing that way. I didn't start this expecting to have my mind changed or anybody else's, I just wanted to trigger others to explain their stances.

I consider myself a cranky academic, grounding reasons for things in logic is my jam. My reason for my unwavering stance on my writing comes from a traumatic year of high school spent slaving away for a tyrant of an English teacher who demanded perfection to a degree that you could identify every student in his class by their gray pallor. I survived that class, spent 2 years recovering physically from it, and took away conciseness, saying what I mean, and how to bullshit my way through an essay to the degree that my professors want me to publish them despite having only skimmed the references or book they're analyzing.

 

[Cosmo]

The fact that you can't accept my argument that the many redundancies you mentioned make a post worse isn't really my problem but I do hate having words put in my mouth. It has power play vibes. If my partner felt compelled to remind me post after post that their character was acting cagey, I'd feel insulted. Conversation starts, character's acting a certain way, got it. Update me when they do something different. Perfect. The only reason to be redundant is if you need to clearly recall something which occurred ages ago, to emphasize something, or to teach, which falls under the umbrella of emphasizing something I guess.
If you don't have the attention span to recall that on the last page, I described my character's behavior and haven't since updated it because the behavior hasn't changed, that sounds like a personal problem.

I am pointing out truth. Its laziness. Its nothing but pure ego to try and make it out to be something it isn't. 'The problem isn't me, its just everyone else in this world!'. Don't feel insulted, or belittled, or 'power-played' everyone has it. Why don't I code? Is it because I truly believe coding is some great evil and makes people prefer aesthetics to substance? No. While that may be true in some cases, the reason I don't code is I am far too lazy to bother to learn to do it. Simple as that.

Why do people write 'Will show history as the story goes in' in the bio portion? Is it because they're are afraid someone might magically know about their past? Meh, not really. Its more because they were feeling lazy and just couldn't be assed to write it. I've done it before. Anyone who says they haven't just soft-balled a written work is full of crap. But lets not start pretending its anything more then laziness.

Now, lets move onto the 'But why do I care if they are doing the same thing?' Maybe because assuming a character is standing perfectly still for 8 pages worth of work is assuming every character is a robot pretending to be human. I love this hilarious idea that 'Whelp, they would know what is happening if they read from the start rather then just jump in the middle' and that isn't the point. If you are writing it well, I should be able to jump into the middle of your RP and get a decent idea what kind of character it is, how they act and what they believe by how they behave during the RP because you, as the writer, should be reinforcing that with little behaviors that call back to what you wrote in the CS.

Why is it in novels that they spend so much time describing it? How many times can they say 'This dude is angry' god, so dumb.... Maybe because it is important to the reader? Because, once again, your reader isn't a mind reader, showing them what your character is doing, where they are doing it, how they are doing it, all of this is important. Here is a tidbit for you, if you are writing a story and you spend more time just throwing out actions and dialogue without describing much else, you haven't written a story. You wrote a screenplay.

 

[Grey]

Do what I do; leave academia in the DMs (and, ideally, in a smoking ruin as education is properly decommodified and disseminated) and make everything else praxis or subtext.

 

[Melpomene]

You know, I think the biggest take away from this thread is that people like what they like and we shouldn't judge how people like to perform doing a hobby.

If anyone is expecting amazingly crafted prose here well... That's on them. It is a roleplay site. Most of our prose ( I am including myself in this) is passable at best. Roleplays are certainly not novels, though they are storytelling.

But some people like being concise, some don't. I don't think either should judge the other because, once again, it is a hobby.

So I guess the take away is... You do you.

 

[Grey]

I am pointing out truth. Its laziness.

Nuclear take, my dude.
I write short posts but I will fight literally anyone who tries to paint that as lazy or low quality. The idea that you need to painstakingly cover every thought and action is poison for pacing and, frankly, insulting to the reader. Sometimes you have to leave gaps the audience can fill in because their imagination is doing most of the work, and imagination rushes in to fill a vacuum.
Also, uh, the idea that you should be able to jump into longform text fiction and immediately get a sense of a character seems... extremely wrong? In episodic fiction, sure, you might be painting in broad strokes for readers coming in to a midseason episode, but there's still a context surrounding them that creates a bigger picture and expands when they engage with the rest of the material.
It's the difference between, say, FRIENDS and BoJack Horseman.

That said I don't remember your earlier post so maybe I'll go back and discover I've missed something which recontextualizes this point.

 

[Dov]

Lol, wow. What I got from your post Cosmo is that you've been lazy, therefore you assume that others who do things that appear to be similar to your admittedly lazy actions are also lazy. It's anything but lazy to revise a rambling post into something air-tight. Also, you meant 'It's' with an apostrophe, several times.

Some people who include history as it goes are lazy, some feel that their posts have more impact when the reader sees the history unveiled piece by piece, and in many cases, not fleshing out the history all at once leaves room for adjustment as a character becomes more well developed. Why even have a character bio when one can show and tell in the context of the writing?

On the topic of 'standing still for 8 pages', if you know that that can't possibly be the case, then you can assume to some extent that they're shifting slightly here and there, but not in a way that's significant enough that it ought to be pointed out. Describing a motion assigns it some degree of importance. If the most important thing is that my character is holding still, then the small shifts having to do with breathing or shifting weight slightly are not important. I don't want to draw attention to them, I want to draw attention to the more conspicuous 'holding still'.

On the topic of writing like a novel: I'll write in a novel style if I'm writing a novel. I'll write in a way that will excite my partner and spur them to respond and push the story forward if I'm rping. I write for myself and for my audience. Further, what novels are you reading that start with character bios that flesh out the histories of the characters? What novel have you ever read where you know everything about a character's background from the start?

 

[Cosmo]

Nuclear take, my dude.
I write short posts but I will fight literally anyone who tries to paint that as lazy or low quality. The idea that you need to painstakingly cover every thought and action is poison for pacing and, frankly, insulting to the reader. Sometimes you have to leave gaps the audience can fill in because their imagination is doing most of the work, and imagination rushes in to fill a vacuum.
Also, uh, the idea that you should be able to jump into longform text fiction and immediately get a sense of a character seems... extremely wrong? In episodic fiction, sure, you might be painting in broad strokes for readers coming in to a midseason episode, but there's still a context surrounding them that creates a bigger picture and expands when they engage with the rest of the material.
It's the difference between, say, FRIENDS and BoJack Horseman.

That said I don't remember your earlier post so maybe I'll go back and discover I've missed something which recontextualizes this point.

Reread what I said. I am not, nor have I ever advocated, that you describe every single thing every time. Frankly, it would take too long and you start to over describe as is the problem with some novels [Like the later novels in the Inheritance series]. But these should be noted. Noted. You don't have to say, 'This character was feeling afraid', you can use body language to convey emotion as you do in real life because environment, actions, thoughts, feelings, these things matter. You don't write them once near the start of an RP and never talk about it again because you just assume it is carried over properly [As he was saying]. You don't ignore the environment because 'who cares', the environment your characters are in does matter not only does it help frame the image of what is going on in your mind, an environment directly influences a character.

When I was speaking of being lazy, notice how I never made sweeping claims. I said I don't code because I am lazy and pointed out how, in some cases, people do get snobbish and prefer aesthetics over substance but the reason I don't code isn't about that so I am not about to make a thread claiming that is why I don't code. So, when I say someone is being lazy, it is not because they are writing something short or that they should be giving me a two-thousand word essay, I am calling someone lazy when they decide they don't want to write about the environment, show a character's feelings or movement changes [Again, don't have to write, Bob was very angry, can simply have bob clenching his fist which is a potent, non-verbal, way of expressing his anger especially over the course of a dialogue]. Capturing that in a short or long post is not all that relevant to me, but the idea that 'because I showed it once, I don't have to show it again, preferably manifesting in another way, or show it's change, because my character would stand perfectly still for this entire conversation', yes, that strikes me as just being too lazy to bother with it.

Only longform text I am familiar with is journalist, and I assume that isn't what you meant. If you are talking about like an expansive novel where they don't reaffirm characters often, yes, I should be able to jump into the middle of the story and get a solid grasp [decent idea] on their characters. Grasp. Not a full understanding if I went from beginning to end, but a grasp [or decent idea] of their characters because it should be something that is carrying over between scenes. You don't drop it at the start and give them a new character, or entirely remove it. [Yes, their environment, the context, interacts the character and shows new aspects of their character, the exact thing I have been advocating for].

Lol, wow. What I got from your post Cosmo is that you've been lazy, therefore you assume that others who do things that appear to be similar to your admittedly lazy actions are also lazy. It's anything but lazy to revise a rambling post into something air-tight. Also, you meant 'It's' with an apostrophe, several times.

Some people who include history as it goes are lazy, some feel that their posts have more impact when the reader sees the history unveiled piece by piece, and in many cases, not fleshing out the history all at once leaves room for adjustment as a character becomes more well developed. Why even have a character bio when one can show and tell in the context of the writing?

On the topic of 'standing still for 8 pages', if you know that that can't possibly be the case, then you can assume to some extent that they're shifting slightly here and there, but not in a way that's significant enough that it ought to be pointed out. Describing a motion assigns it some degree of importance. If the most important thing is that my character is holding still, then the small shifts having to do with breathing or shifting weight slightly are not important. I don't want to draw attention to them, I want to draw attention to the more conspicuous 'holding still'.

On the topic of writing like a novel: I'll write in a novel style if I'm writing a novel. I'll write in a way that will excite my partner and spur them to respond and push the story forward if I'm rping. I write for myself and for my audience. Further, what novels are you reading that start with character bios that flesh out the histories of the characters? What novel have you ever read where you know everything about a character's background from the start?

Ah, now who is trying to powerplay?

Because, if you are writing an RP properly, a character's history isn't for the other players. Its for their characters. I may know your character went to prison, doesn't mean my character does and that revelation should still have impact upon them.

Oh, but it is. Even something small like the shifting of weight or something catching their eye, these things help break up the back and forth and add a bit of flow, help make the world seem more alive. The small things are not to be underestimated just because you can't be bothered to write them.

Obviously then I am talking about 'CS' I am referring to roleplaying. In a novel, someone's character is shown through what they say, how they say it, how they behave and act which is something you should be able to get a grasp on even if you jump into the middle because it should always be on display. You don't stop being you just because its noon.

 

[Melpomene]

Alright, so while I enjoy longer posts and writing more in general, and once again I say, this is a hobby so people should just be able to do what they like.

I think it should be mentioned that while writing styles certainly can overlap, you must remember that writing styles for different mediums don't always translate well. I would write a short story, a vignette, a novel, a web serial and an RP in different ways. Perhaps not vastly, but different enough that it does merit an acknowledgement of the distinction.

I am currently writing a novel and have written vignettes and short stories and RPs. Let me tell you, it isn't the same.

Nor should it be. You are trying to do different things in each one.

So, while I do think that novels and RPs are comparable to am extent, I know for a fact I write the two in very different fashions. And there is a reason for that.

Once again, I actually prefer longer more superfluous posts, but I think conciseness is just as valid of a way of writing. As long as everyone is having fun then there is nothing to really get mad at in an RP.

 

[Dov]

Once again, I actually prefer longer more superfluous posts, but I think conciseness is just as valid of a way of writing. As long as everyone is having fun then there is nothing to really get mad at in an RP.

I totally agree, barring the element of preference. Not that people with writing styles that contrast so much are likely to be playing together, but if they were, they'd annoy the heck out of each other. Not something to mad about, but definitely not something that makes either participant happy. You'd inevitably find my writing boring and I'd find your writing boring, at least in the context of rp. Like you said, novels and whatnot are a different can of worms.

 

[rae2nerdy]

The tl;dr I get from this thread feels like post-length stipulations are merely a circuitously polite way of sorting writing you would consider bad from what you would consider good, and approach of 'here to play' from 'here to write.'

A short list of people here, and you know who you are, will be happier if they don't expect professional quality prose from hobbyists.

The problem is Dov is the only one asking people to make professional quality posts to suit his asthetic. Everyone else is just like “This is what I like but man you have fun. We’ll meet you in the middle if we can.”

The rigid unwillingness to compromise seems like honestly a far bigger problem at this point than post length. Because at the end of the day your attitude as a roleplayer is always going to trump your post length. I don't care if someone writes one sentence, one paragraph, or one page, if they act like Dov has been in this thread I'm leaving.

Because I am not going to roleplay with someone who is never satisfied and is always critiquing my work. I don't want it. I don't find it fun. I am not going to stick around.

In contrast if someone came to me and they had a good attitude, were excited to write with me, and had an open line of communication, I would be happy to work with them. Maybe they can only think of one-line of text. Hey if that one-line gave me enough to respond to I'll take it and just talk to the person in OOC. I won't attack them. I won't make them feel like their way of roleplaying is bad. I will just be like...oh hey maybe next time we can work together to make this post a little longer. I'll be happy to give you suggestions or brainstorm with you.

It all comes down to attitude and a willingness to let other people have fun.

Edited - to be a little more constructive.

 

[Dov]

I agree that people have their way and should enjoy themselves. I disagree on the meeting in the middle thing. I know what makes me happy and when I'm doing something that makes somebody else happy. It'd be a huge waste of time for both parties if I tried to adjust my writing to suit them or asked somebody to do that for me. I wish there were more people who wrote like me so that we could be happy playing together, compromise need not be a factor when we're all on the same page to begin with. Beyond finding people who write with me, I have to filter further to find people within that group who are also good at that style. It'd be interesting to have more specific numbers about that. I suppose one couldn't get data on something that subjective though.

I like the politics comparison except for that I'd equate my stance more to somebody who has a specific political opinion, will not waver one inch on it, and will vote based almost entirely on that one opinion.

 

[Grey]

Cosmo Mea culpa; I can see that we were talking past each other and I was insufficiently charitble to your position. I likewise think you and Dov have been talking past each other.

The problem is Dov is the only one asking people to make professional quality posts to suit his asthetic.

I do think this characterization is a touch unfair, but I entirely see where you're coming from. I know I'm typically flippant but you've been conducting quite a sober synthesis as this thread goes on and I appreciate that.

 

[rae2nerdy]

Cosmo
I do think this characterization is a touch unfair, but I entirely see where you're coming from. I know I'm typically flippant but you've been conducting quite a sober synthesis as this thread goes on and I appreciate that.

Perhaps not the only one to be fair but certainly the one who does it most consistently. As most of us have backed up our positions to be more or less "I like this style of writing and here is why." It goes back to the whole idea that words he wouldn't personally use are fluff. That sort of gives the impression that those posts are less professional than the ones he is writing. Now perhaps this is done unintentionally, which I do believe is the case most of the time. But that kind of brings up my own point that a good portion of the issue is down to attitude. It isn't so much a matter of what you write it's how those words come across. Whether that is in making an argument or a post.

 

[Grey]

I think that quite neatly summarizes a lot of the contention here. Charity, optics, and presuppositions.
We all regard our styles and approaches very personally - and why not, when it's among the purer expressions of our internal experience - and I think that clash is evident here in a way that leads to a lack of charity and surfeit of hostility.

For what my advice is worth, I think we should all take a deep breath, step back, and perhaps congregate in a thread with a constructive aim (because it's genuinely nice to see everyone so earnestly sharing their perspective; I'd like to see it happen in a less combative context).

 

[Wandering Fae]

Why do people write 'Will show history as the story goes in' in the bio portion? Is it because they're are afraid someone might magically know about their past? Meh, not really. It's more because they were feeling lazy and just couldn't be assed to write it. I've done it before. Anyone who says they haven't just soft-balled a written work is full of crap. But let's not start pretending its anything more than laziness.

I have to somewhat disagree with that. I, in fact, know many people who don't put their bios down because of the fact that they ran into so many people who would either magically know their character's backstory with no real cause as to how or why they'd know or inserting their character into their character's backstory in an attempt to force some kind of connection or relationship without asking. There was also this weird phase people were going through at one point where people were copying other people's bios and tweaking them only slightly and sometimes not at all.

There were also the few who just couldn't think if a good backstory for their character at the time rather than it just being a case of being lazy and then there were those who felt their character's backstory really didn't warrant an entire section because there was nothing interesting to tell because before the current events their character lead a basically normal life and to them putting that down seemed lazier than just not putting anything at all.

 

[rae2nerdy]

Wandering Fae I had people do that in the past. I got so pissed off once because this person had their character barely interact with mine in the IC because apparently his backstory offended them. And I kept saying - this is the first time the characters have met have met.

At one point she had her character make a snide comment and I basically had my guy get exasperated and ask her character why she was being so bitchy. Like you’ve known me for a few weeks and you have been a thundering bitch this whole time. Person ended up leaving the roleplay after that.

For me I want at least enough backstory to make sure you understand the lore of the roleplay and the role your playing. Cuz had people in the past totally misunderstand the setting and their role to the point of directly contradicting stuff in MY characters backstory. Which admittedly was also partially them not reading my CS.

So I usually ask for at least an elevator pitch. (A paragraph or two overview of the character) I don’t need to know your characters autobiography but I need to know enough about them to confirm we are all on the same page when it comes to roles and lore.

 

[Kazami42]

Not 100% related conventionally, but I felt this was necessary, since everyone's been looping like a broken record since at least page five. But I honestly wanna see how far it goes, despite the repeating spin cycle. At least we got something new from Rae and Grey. Though on a repeated point, inevitably resulting in the same end sentiment as posters before since the early pages. Therefore, I feel this fits perfectly. Maybe it could also amuse some.

 

[Dov]

Yo man I try to keep the convo going but people just gotta keep bringing up the title of the post. (jk I understand that, please don't start calling me out on this one it's a joke thanks chiclets.)

For me I want at least enough backstory to make sure you understand the lore of the roleplay and the role your playing.

Again, you manage to present me with the one counterargument I'll accept. I did this once really early on. The premise was that the boundaries between mythical worlds was disintegrating. I made it so my character had stumbled into hell, had to be escorted out by the grim reaper, and was quite shook by it. I very quickly found out that somebody was actually playing the role of the grim reaper, as that person was the first person to instigate an interaction with my character. I unwittingly powerplayed somebody else into my character's backstory. Not one of my shining moments. Still made for a really neat rp though, I was lucky enough that the person who was playing the reaper went along with it and managed to integrate it into their character in a really engaging way.

Not related but it's amusing: On the subjects of 'one counterargument I'll accept', I work at an animal rescue where one of my favorite jobs is naming our animals. It's important to me because sometimes, an animal having the right name makes the difference between being adopted and being overlooked. I tell people that I hate giving them people names (Jack, Charlie, Bella) because I do not want to meet my soulmate and go 'oh hey, that's my dog's name' because then we would never be together. ONE person ever has presented me with an acceptable counterargument: If my soulmate and my dog are named the same thing, then I'll save time when I inevitably have to yell at both of them for doing the same wrong thing at the same time.

 

[LazyDaze]

I don’t get paid enough on this site to give y’all detail. I’m about to ”gentle breeze blows his hair” y’all to death. U need to unlock the DLC for longer posts fam.

but seriously I had a massive wall of text responding to something about laziness and then I just erased of all of it because I saw my username and disqualified myself. Just some quick notes

I don’t begrudge anyone who isn’t trying to make a novel of this site for free. Someone said it earlier but this is a hobby. I for one have many interests and I do other things outside of RP’ing. My time on here better be fun. If it isn’t I’m expecting a pay check. That said i do my best to provide quality posts because...well it’s just considerate to all involved.

second apparently ppl have had to RP with one liners. Never actually seen it because I don’t gm and hardly do 1 on 1s. If that’s the case u might need the requirement after all

third and most important I refuse to learn to code. I will never learn to code. Me and code have beef. Perhaps PTSD from engineering courses that I DROPPED! But nah basic CS all day and every day. My time in this earth is limited, ur getting the important stuff. I might even get fancy and color the headings.