Help with my game (Guys from ENworld Exalted game stay out)

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figgin

New Member
So I’m working on a pbp game and here’s what I got thus far.  We haven’t started the game quite yet. Just so you know, the players made these backgrounds up, not sure how possible or likely some of them are.


Twilight:


Former Realm member of the All Seeing Eye (minor member, mortal astrologer) who exalts into a Twilight while witnessing a Wyld Hunt.  Now he’s been tutored in the arts of Sorcery by a Lesser Elemental Dragon in the West.  He has few spells right now, Emerald Counter Magic and Emerald Banishment.  But he’s all Artifacted up and uses an Ori Grimcleaver.  He can do more damage than anyone else in the game right now.  Also he has a lot of 5’s in Attributes (Dex and Int) and Abilities (Occult and Dodge).  But with all the Artifacts he’s got good Soak, DV, Acc, and Dmg. Since he has this powerful being helping him out, i can somewhat handle the idea that the dragon gave him the Artifacts, but still 7 points of Artifacts. That seems really odd to me.  But that’s just dnd wizard thoughts getting in my way.  


Zenith:


Criminal with martial arts living near Halta, kills a random merchant who turns out to be the mortal brother of a Fire Aspected Dragon Blooded.  Big fight, the gang he works with is pretty much destroyed and now he’s missing an eye.  The DB loses him in the woods, where he later exalts.  He finds a rank four hidden Solar manse with the Seven Leaping Dragons Heartstone.  He’s got DEX 5, Martial Arts 5, and with his Ori Razor Claws his base attack is 19 dice. He also has the Past Lives Merit.  


Dawn:


First time player using the Kade character in Tomb of 5 corners. This puts him in the Lookshy/Nexus area. That game gives out Artifact weapons, so he doesn’t start with any.  I’ve already figured out I’m going to have to give him something to keep up with the rest of them.


Eclipse:


An astrologer (two in one game, hmm) from Yane in the South, makes a wrong prediction and becomes an outcaste.  After that he becomes known for his knowledge of Spirits and how to deal with them.  Get taken in by Fair Folk and spends years in the Wyld.  He has no memory of the time, and his eyes now look like emeralds and he gained the Longevity Pox.  Also says he was thinking he had assimilated.  I no longer have my copy of the Book of the Wyld, so not sure how that works.  When he exalted he had attempted to escape and was helped out by a Sidereal, who he has fallen in love with and she is now his Ally background.  


Night: Player is still working on it.


Any suggestions on a really good story?  And also how to handle the semi lack of balance, since right now the Twilight and Zenith could destroy anything that would be a challenge to the other two.
 
The only one I think I have a bit of a concern about would be the Twilight. 7 points of artifact seems a bit much:


First of all, he's a Solar, not a Dragon-blooded Dynast, so I don't believe he should he have access to that large an arsenal at character creation. Cap should be 5 at most.


Secondly, how did he get a 7 artifact background in the first place? Since he could only have bought a background up to 3 with the 7 free background dots he received at character generation, did he spend 8 freebie points (not that should have been able to in the first place) on it? Add that to the 7 he spent on getting to essence 3 and he's all out of freebie points.


Personally, I'd declare shennanigans with a side dish of twinkery.


I'd recommend having them use Anathema for character generation and sending you the character sheet print out afterwards so you can check if everything is on the up and up.


Also, I just realized the Zenith has a Past Life merit, is this a first edition game?


Good Luck.
 
Well, few questions first. Why are they in the same game? How are they connected? There should be some tie or even that brings the group together, and it should have some actual depth to it. Simply all happening to be in the same place at the same time strains believability. Are they all from the same First Age Circle? Remember that a good 50% of all Solars were lost to become Abyssals...full circles are unlikely to remain whole, though not impossible. Is there something else that will bond them together, a common foe, or something that they will come to all care for and seek to protect? 5 Solars...don't be suprised if at some point some Lunar former mates show up...their destines tend to intertwine rather tightly. This can lead to some interesting encounters and rp, particullarly considering that the mate is forced to take a Solar as an Intimacy as soon as they meet once again...whether they like it or not.


As for balancing a group...well, it's rather difficult. The Dawn, I'd suggest you help them build their character instead of using a pregen. Pregen characters tend to have serious lacks, both mechanically and in depth and they don't have the same level of connection as a character you've made yourself. now, some people can make a pregen into something that truly is 'theirs' after a time, don't get me wrong...but it can be hard to start that way. Outside of that, a group of enemies can compine foes of varying power levels...say one or two for your powerhouses, and other somewhat lesser but still significant foes for your less powerful types.


On a side note, Exaltation overrides the Longevity pox. While the person could have had such prior to Exaltation, it has been overridden by this point unless you choose to houserule otherwise.


As for the issue of 'too many artifacts' for your Twilight...remember that if he's gotten such as gifts from his Mentor, it's rather likely that the mentor will be expecting some recompence. You don't just give away 7 points worth of artifacts out of the kindness of your heart...even if you do like someone a good deal. That's a serious expenditure even for the highest gods shy of the Incarna. Payback can easilly lead to any number of adventures, as Mentor fellow asks for a hand with this, that or the other thing.
 
You buy levels of artifacts seperately for each artifact in 2e. That's why artifact 4 and 5 cost so much more to get, and get exponentially better than lower level artifacts, nevermind you need Wonder Forging Genius to even make them, unless you're essence 6.


Having an ok set of armour, a daiklave, and a hearthstone bracers will easily get you to 7 dots of artifact.. and it's hardly -that- over the top.. easily findable in a tomb. Indeed, you have to wonder why so many exalts were buried with JUST a daiklave, instead of all the stuff they -would- have had ^^


So, no .. not tons of justification needed.. if anything, you should really need to justify why you -just- have a single plain orichalcum daiklave


The dragon -giving- them to him is odd though.. I'll agree there.. giving away that many artifacts is indeed odd.
 
What are their motivations and intimacies? Those will tell you what kind of game they're hoping for.
 
Under the rules starting with 7 points of artifact isn’t hard in second ed.


You by the background separately for each artifact, so he will have taken artifact 3 grim clever and artifact 2 hearthstone braces and artifact 2 armor (I am guessing the distribution) so he spent 7 background or build points


It would not be an unreasonable house rule to limit starting artifacts to 5 dots total, but it would be a house rule.


Alarmingly twilights come out as the most dangerous combatants in the game due to there powerful defensive anima power, it takes massive damage to actually affect them.


I am curious about how the zenith managed a base of 19 dice. 5 dex, 5 MA, 3 specialization and accuracy +5 (ori razor claws). that’s only 18 dice. Where did the last one come from, check his math.


One of the solars has a sidereal ally that alone can cover for any group of solars meeting up, another tequnike is that a wild hunt is chasing one group of characters past where the others happen to be and they get a flash of recognition and hopefully intervene.


Edward
 
Alright, this is long, but it’s been helpful just putting my ideas down.  First off thanks for the response.  Here ya go.


Quick Anwsers:


The 19 dice comes from DEX 5 M. Arts 5 Ori Razor Claws 5 Seven Leaping Dragons Stone 4


Perfect Circle: I can see what you mean about the rarity of a Perfect Circle, or any Circle for that matter, but in a way it helps bring all these different folk together if there is that bond between them.


The Premade Dawn:  He doesn't have the book yet, but he says he might change things around once he gets it.  I think the character isn't that bad, just has different Backgrounds than I would have taken.  Outside of that, its a mildly different version of Dace, the iconic Dawn.


Motivations and Intimacies:


Dawn:  Assuming he doesn’t change too much:  He’s Dace.  Mercenary who loves his men, hates the enemy.  Got his ass handed to him at Thorns and distrusts everything to do with Mask of Winters.  Just works day to day, looking for the next mission.


Ideas: Well, he might go though a lot of changes, but hopefully he’ll stay like this.  He has no real goals outside of survival.  This isn’t such a bad thing, it means I can work on the rest of them and let him just figure out why he’s helping them.  What’s in it for me?  Not sure what that answer could be yet, but it could be a fun thing to develop.  As for bringing him into the plot.  He gets hired by a city (lookshy, great forks, nexus, whatever) to go to a location and do something fairly unimportant (bring a supplies) and in the process something happens.


Zenith: He's really into First Age stuff.  His primary goal is to restore Creation to its First Age Glory, also loves magic items.  Has a soft spot for helping the wounded.  Also has an intimacy for Martial Arts.  He's got the Wanted Flaw and Past Lives Merit.


Ideas Thus far:  With the authorities on his trail, lead by the Fire Aspect brother of a man he killed, and drawn to a location TBA by his flash backs and he will meet the Dawn.  


Twilight:  He hates the demons and the undead.  Wants to purify the land of Demons.  To be honest, he hasn't given much reason for his hatred.  He given me a fair amount of his history, failed Dynast thaumaturg, only one in his family not to exalt, got a government position, but disappointed his parents and himself.  Selfish, arrogant.  Really not sure what I think of him thus far.  Still waiting to hear what exact Intimacies he wants to take.


Ideas thus far:  He worked with the All Seeing Eye, and now he's a Solar.  And he was seen glowing by members of the Wyld Hunt.  So now his family and the Eye know that he's not just a disappointment, he's a disaster.  I’m thinking the Eye makes it a point to take him down, just incase he knows any secrets, and maybe introduce a few recognizable brothers and sisters in flashbacks and send them to kill him as well.  Getting him into the game is the easiest for me.  His mentor sends him.  Travel across the world, not much of a problem, he’s a dragon.  One powerful magic item and he’s there.  I’m also trying to justify the dragon in my mind.  Is being a Solar enough?  Or does there have to be something else to it.


Eclipse: He wants to make Heaven accept the returning Solars.  His intimacies are his girlfriend, Jade and Copper Leaf Inauspicious, Chosen of Journeys and the Varang City States.  


Ideas thus far:  First off I asked him about his interest in Varang and if the game had to move to him.  Since his idea is that he loves his home, but he’s an outcast he will move.  And yeah with his love interest a Sidereal, I think him finding out about the rest of his former Circle seems believable.  With his interest in bringing Solars and Heaven back together, and combine that with the Dragon and Twilight, I’m thinking that the whole game can revolve somehow around Yu Shan and Creation.  And just thinking about it right now, maybe his girlfriend (who I was thinking might be a Bronze Faction torn between love and duty anyways) might have been sent not to save him, but to prevent him from fulfilling his goal.  Maybe he would have defeated the fair folk anyways, but by saving his life, she was placed in a position of trust.


So what I need is to find a good way to bring them all together.  With just the stuff I mentioned, I’m thinking maybe that the Zenith and Dawn both end up in a massive first age ruin, along the lines of Rathess.  Inside is a portal to Yu Shan.  Maybe number 19.  I’ll have to do some research to figure out which one works best.  Following the Zenith you’ve got the first major bad guys, the Dragon Blooded out for revenge.  During the course of everything, the two of them find the portal, but have no way to enter it.  Or even what it is, just that it’s important and impressive looking.


Meanwhile, the dragon is training the Twilight and I need to come up with something interesting for him to do by himself.  (or maybe sends him to the same location as the other two, which eventually he going to have to just to keep the story going)  


And then the Eclipse:  hmm. I’m trying not to have the “you all end up in the same room at the same timeâ€
 
As someone pointed out: Seven dots in Artifacts are not that hard to pick up.  Unless you're using house rules or playing a Dynast game, you buy the Artifacts background for each separate thing you want.  Generic 5MM weapons and armor are going to run you two or three dots apiece, and hearthstone bracers are a rating 2.  That's easily seven dots right there for only three Artifacts.


Unless I'm misinterpreting and he actually has an Artifact 7 rating on his sheet.


What concerns me about the Twilight is the smell of twinkery.  It's my opinion that any character pre-game should be either really good at one thing (Dex 5, Melee 5, Dodge 5, reflecting a life of martial combat; Int 5, Occult 5, Lore 5 reflecting a life of study and pursuit of knowledge) or generalized across the board without any one particular field of expertise.  Since his background story has him focussed on being a mortal thaumaturge in the All-Seeing Eye, I'd personally nerf the hell out of his combat ability.


Thaumaturgy is time-consuming, and would take up most of his life prior to Exaltation.  Unless he reached the pinnacle of mortal abilities (ratings of 5) prior to his Second Breath and he obviously hasn't spent all of his time since his Exaltation focussing on nothing but his other abilities (reflecting his initiations into sorcery, a month or so learning Terrestrial Circle and a couple of weeks for his spells), there's absolutely no reason for him to have that many Attributes and Abilities at maxed ratings.


Edit: About the concern with the Artifacts and sorcerous initiation/tutoring... Mentors rarely give anything away for free.  Especially Lesser Elemental Dragons.  I'd be more inclined to require him to take dots in the Mentor background.  This reflects both his background story and his obligations to his Mentor.
 
Twinkwarning all over the place!


Personally, I forbid any 5's on any starting character in my games. Why? Because I think striving for a greater skill is a cool and epic storyline, and that I like the idea that someone, somewhere out there is better than these starting characters.


I usually allow 2-3 4's in abilities and same with stats, if they have good explanations. Nerf those 5's!


Thaumaturgy is, as the speaker above me says, a very time consuming thing. He shouldn't be master ninja at the same time.. yet.
 
Uh, that is an extremely arbitrary ruling to be honest.


First of all, for someone destined to be exatled, thaumaturgy is just child's play, same goes for a five in melee, dodge and whatnot. At least as long as you do not bring some heavy houserules into the arena.


Honestly, if I was Sol, I would not exalt people without some fives ^^
 
Safim said:
Uh, that is an extremely arbitrary ruling to be honest.
First of all, for someone destined to be exatled, thaumaturgy is just child's play, same goes for a five in melee, dodge and whatnot. At least as long as you do not bring some heavy houserules into the arena.


Honestly, if I was Sol, I would not exalt people without some fives ^^
Click to expand...
I'd hardly call it child's play, since it costs five bonus or ten experience  points to purchase degrees of thaumaturgical arts, even for Solar Exalts.  Twilights get their Caste discount, but it's still four and eight.


Besides, by canon, Sidereals are technically the only ones "destined" to be Exalted.  Solars and Lunars seem to be chosen at random, when a particular mortal impresses the Incarnae enough.  Terrestrials pass their Exaltations through their blood, but that's based on genetic chance as well.
 
I was referring to the fact that you still need destiny 3 to be chosen as a celestial.


So, it costs 5 bonus points... hmmmm... let me see, that means I can still have essence 3 or 2 additional charms or a smattering of virtues and skillpoints or or or... So... in fact a celestial can easily become a thaumaturg/ninja/sorceror. Therefore I consider thaumaturgy or sorcery or being a ninja child's play for an exalt ^^
 
Safim said:
I was referring to the fact that you still need destiny 3 to be chosen as a celestial.
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If you're referring to the sidebar in the Player's Guide under the Destiny merit, I'll point you to the "This is not to say that the Celestial Exalted are predestined, save perhaps a handful of Sidereals for whom the Maidens dangerously and deliberately bend the rules.  Rather, Celestial Essences can only affix themselves to destinies worthy of their glory."  


It still sounds like to me that a mortal has made himself noticeable enough to the tapestry of Fate for the Celestines to think them worthy, and Destiny 3 is not a requirement, but a baseline measure of exactly how noteworthy a mortal should have made himself before he's chosen for Exaltation.
 
Maybe I've been doing it wrong this whole time but I've always been under the iimpression that nothing can be purchased higher than 5 at character creation, including artifacts, not two dots here for this item, two dots here for that, oh and three dots here for this one for a total of seven.  Manses too, 5 dots worth of Hearthstones is the max a character can start with at creation, all the rest is done via RPing.


I might be wrong, but even so, I'm not about to change it.  It keeps the me from having to deal with min/maxing and twinkery.  Most PCs in my games are happy to reach 4 in a trait let alone 5.


I don't think it's very smart for the Twilight (who I'm assuming is thier sorcerer as well) to have 7 dots worth of committed artifacts.  He/She might need that essence later.
 
In 1E, the way you're doing it was indeed the case. In 2E, you buy each artifact separately. In some ways, I find the latter better, for instance, if you have a character who's got the backstory to support Gunzosha armor and a Grand Daiklaive, you can't do that without getting 6 in artifacts (which is impossible in the 1E way of doing artifacts, aside from merits, I guess), and yet neither of them are exactly uncommon or hard to obtain, especially if you're from Lookshy or such. However, it does allow for more potential twinkery, so it's best used with caution, and odds are, this Twilight has overdone it a bit, especially if it's all orichalcum. I'd probably ask him to tone it down a little myself. Artifacts aren't handed out like candy to new Solars. I'd probably put a limit of two different artifacts total, myself. But if you don't want to, LK has a good point. If he's been handed all this stuff, he's going to be expected to pay the guy back eventually.....


Also, as a side note, Twilights in armor can suck major in a fight (well, my armor reduced you to your ping. Now I subtract (essence) in successes off that...what, no damage again? I love being me), which is something else to keep in mind for balancing things. Not sure how much it'll matter in your game, but the Twilight in one I'm in is getting a little annoying with his tendency to be immune to damage at least half the time. And all he's wearing is an Orichalcum Breastplate.
 
In 2E Artifacts and Manses can be purchased as seperate backgrounds with their own ratings for each Artifact or Manse...thus making it possible to say, play a Solar or Lunar  with seven background points and have say a Grand Daiklaive and artifact armor without spending any bonus points...or to take a pair of 3 dot artifacts or better. Generally the idea is that having a really good sword or armor shouldn't make it impossible to also have the other...so long as you are willing to spend the points.
 
First off, thanks for all the comments,


My only concern for the Twilight is that since he only has two very specific spells (counter magic and banishment) he’s really not much of a Twilight.  Lore of 3, Occult of 5, yes but no Invest, or combat spells.  So what is he bringing to the table that a Dawn wouldn’t?  At the same time, I don’t really want to force him to remake his character.


His stats, though perhaps better than they should be, aren’t that bad for a warrior type.  If he was playing a Dawn I wouldn’t think about it, except the all Ori part, that’s a bit far fetched to me.


Also, what do you think the effect of walking around in Orichalcum Armor, with Ori bracers amd holding a few Ori weapons will be?  It seems to me that people in the know would automatically think hey that’s a Solar.  Or even, hey that’s a lot of Orichalcum, that should be mine, let’s beat the crap out of that dude and take his stuff.


Oh, I noticed on another thread someone talking about the Games of Divinity and what would happen if one of the pieces found its way to Creation.  I really took to that idea.  I’m thinking a powerful thief/disguise artist, maybe mirror flag, steals a piece of the games for the Gold Faction, with the hopes that with it they can force the Gods to actively bring the Solars back.  But two things happen, one the game doesn’t really need the piece to work, so even though it upsets the Gods, after assigning someone to go retrieve it, they go back to playing a quickly forget they’re missing something, and two a deathlord finds out about the plan and ambushes the Solar.  The thief gets badly wounded and dies before delivering the piece.  


Enter the players.  They find the body and a Ori box that they can’t open (in this case for their own good as the piece is inside).  Now with the Abyssal on their backs, Gold and Bronze Faction Sidereals trying to get the piece to at least get a better understand it.  And maybe a god comes down to collect it as well.


What do you think?  I really like the idea, but I think it might be too much too soon.
 
Combat spells are often not worth the essence.. and not all twilights have to be uber sorcerors.. .. indeed, I'd congratulate him.. most people tend to either play sorceror or not sorceror.. like a binary switch.. instead he seems to have just taken some useful sorcery (and if you don't think countermagic is a useful party spell.. then.. you've clearly never gone against lots of enermy sorcerors ^^)


But meh, not like I know much about the char.. if the concept seems fine tho.. no real worries..


Also.. before you go on too much about just having occ 5 and lore 3.. .. ask yourself this.. do many dawns take 3 caste abilities at 5?.. cause, I've played dawns who have 5 in melee, and say, 3 in war, or archery.. be a bit double standards if you applied it to him methinks
 
True.  I can see that.  I even realize that no one thing bothers me, but all of it combined together.


I guess this all has to do with the knee jerk reaction to his Attributes and Abilities and Backgrounds.  He changed them a bit from when he first gave me his char sheet, because I asked him how he was planning on playing this.


Original sheet


Str2 Dex 5 Stam 2, Char 1, Mani 1 App 5 Per 3 Int 5 Wit 3  (no bunus points)


Lore 3 Occ 5 Dodge 4 everything thing else 2 or less (3 bonus points)


Comp 1 Conv 1 Temp 4 Valor 4 (3 bonus Points)


Will 8 (no points)


Ess 3 (7 bonus)


Charms:  Ess Arrow, First Melee, Ox Body, Reflex Side Step, Integ Prot, Chaos Repelling, Spirit Detecting, Terr Circle, Counter magic, Banishment (to be fair, i have no real complaints about his Charms, just the spell choices)


Backgrounds: (2 points)


Mentor 2 (A high level mentor that has no time for the character)


Art 2 Grimcleaver


Art 2 Power bow


Art 2 Heartstone Bracers


Art 1 Reinforced  Breastplate


To me this says I'm a power gamer.  I know I need high Ess and Will so increase anything that will help me out regardless of playability.  How do you get the highest Will without paying much for it, two virtues at rank 4, more essense too.  Yeah!  I had to point out to him that he had a Charisma, Manipulation, Conviction,  and Compassion of 1, what kind of an A-hole was he going to be.  And a 5 in each of the three Attribute groups just gets on my nerves.  So from the begining I didn't like his character.


And his combat stats are just as bad.  How do you fight in this game? Dex +Ability + Weapon.  How do you defend Dex + Ability + Ess.  Well I already have a High Ess so let's max out Dex and get a really high dodge, then take cheap but effective artifacts.  


And as for his Backgrounds:  the mentor's fine, and none of his Artifacts are that bad by themselves,  but when others are taking a point in Manse, an Ally, a Familiar, and an artifact, someone walking out with mostly Artifacts seems odd.


And compared to the rest of the group, he's got one of the highest DV's, does the most base damage, has the one of the highest Soak right now, and has the most essense.  Now as I said in the first post, maybe if the Dawn changed his character sheet a bit, he'd be more effective, but still something seems wrong.


Oh and yes he did change the sheet a bit.  He now has Mani 2, App 4, Comp 2, Temp 3, Valor 3, Will 7.  This isn't that much better to me.  I guess it's just the fact that he's mastered the Occult.  He's one of the smartest people in Creation.  And he likes to fight!


To be fair, I am glad he took Spirit Detecting Glance, Integrity Protecting, and Chaos Repelling Pranas.  It brings something to the party that most people wouldn't bring.


And I'm not saying that either of his spells aren't useful and good spells, just that they are very spefic.  In a fight against the fair folk, any non spellcasting exalts, many elementals, spirits, and so forth, all he will be able to do is hit them with his great axe.  And when I put them against demons and dedicated spellcasters I already know how he will respond, so A) I put them against a crap ton of them, B) the spellcaster is like him, knows a spell or two, but also is a badass with a sword, or C) I accept that the fights won't be difficult for the party.


As I say, on some level I just don't think of this character as a twilight, but as a Dawn that wasted some charms on stuff he won't be using that often.  Add in the fact that I've already got a Dawn and a combat oriented martial artist Zenith, and this character seems like a waste of a twilight.
 
Figgin.. .. quick question.. and.. I'm not meaning to be rude or anything.. but.. do you actually -know- what powergaming is?


Cause.. .. that's a fairly spread out character.. and while there's a -tiny- amount of powergaming.. that is INSANELY far from an optimised build...


hell, he has both melee and archery.. .. .. that's not power gaming, that's actually being surprisingly generalised for an exalt..


And after those changes to the char sheet you were on about.. well.. you've lost -all- sympathy from me.. as.. that character isn't powergamed at all


Seriously, do you just have some weird thing about 5 dots or something? :P


Cause.. just.. gah.. seriously.. the character is FINE.. clearly he wants to have a hand to play in both combat and sorcery, and also wants to make sure he isn't going to die.. .. that's not powergaming.. that's SENSIBLE
 
I have to go with Fluffy on this one. That's actually a rather spread out and balanced character. Having one good ability does not a power gamer make. If anything it might be a little TOO broad base charm wise... His spell choices are solid useful spells that AREN'T the broken ones...though very useful.


The artifact points aren't quite correct, though, a Reinforced Breastplate is Artifact 3, not 1. A Breastplate is Artifact 1.


Now, the more spread out virtues are likely a good thing...but other than that...if anything, if one of my players brought such a build to me, I'd give some advise on strengthening it slightly to increase survivability. If he's your powergamed character, I'd be rather worried about the characters coming from the others, and why/how they screwed themselves in the foot to the point he's considered overpowered.


However, I will note that I find it odd that a former Thaumaturge has no Thaumaturgy. That doesn't make sense with the backstory...they should at least have some Thaumaturgy...
 
Fuzzy Rabbit, I understand that you are trying to be helpful.  Thank you.  


The written word is a strange thing.  I’m going to try and ignore some of what you have said and focus on what I can get out of this.


Yes he could have made his character more powerful.  That is true.  


Do I have a problem with 5’s at character creation?  Yeah I do.  I looked at the premade characters in the Solar Caste books.  In five books there are only three characters that have 5’s in both Attribute and Ability.  One is a fanatical playwright that is partially insane.  Another was raised in a death cult to become one of the greatest assassins in Creation, and the third is an assassin who “becomes his victims.â€
 
Leedal,


I just read your post.  Thanks for the response.


You're right about the breastplate, he had it written down wrong, but he still used the breastplate stats, so no big deal.


And I might talk to him about his virtues, as a low conviction means he won't refress Willpower as often and seems out of place to a driven person.  Anyone with high stats has put time and effort into his life.  He wouldn't be lazy.  


And I had a problem with the lack of Thamaturgy as well.  At least there are things he can do with out taking any specialities.  Admitedly, there really low level stuff such as Compile Chart, but still.
 
"Compile Chart"?


As to the, "high ranked skills take effort" argument: Not necessarily. Caste and Favored Abilities can be raised without any training time.


A character could conceivably have no dots in Ride (for example) before he Exalts, and then BAM!, he has 5.
 
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