Help me out here

[Jukashi]

Two things I'm unsure of.


1: The Rule of Seven, i.e. the rule that says you can effectively "trade in" 7 dice for one success if you don't feel like rolling something. I remember it from 1e but I can't find it in 2e.


2: Rules for using daiklaives and other oversized MM weapons without attuning them. I seem to recall something about needing increased strength, but perhaps I'm confusing it with the rule for using two-handed things one-handed? Again, I can't find it in 2e.

 

[Lord Kamina]

1) Page 124 of the core book, under "Automatic success"


2) I cannot find the ruling, however I think it might not exist, this on the basis of the write-up for Short Daiklaves where it especifically states they are so small even mortals and unattuned Exalts can use them as awkward equipment.

 

[Jukashi]

There should be a ruling. An unattuned daiklaive, massive though it is, should be no problem for, say, a DBTd Lunar with maxed-out strength.

 

[Lord Kamina]

Certainly, but I couldn't find it in the books. It might be there or it might require houseruling.

 

[Brickwall]

Unattuned daiklaives are considered Improvised Weapons, and are basically wielded as a wooden beam or something, except sharp.

 

[Kyeudo]

The Dragon-Blooded book has a Terrestrial noted to be able to wield a Reaver Daiklave unattuned, Ferem Helkar. Doesn't tell us what that strength is, though.

 

[Ryvaken Tadrya]

By my reckoning, if someone is using an unattuned weapon, then they're either stunting all over the place or they're trying to avoid attunement costs. One doesn't need stats because the player should not be allowed to fail, one doesn't need stats because the player should not be allowed to succeed.

 

[Jukashi]

By my reckoning' date=' if someone is using an unattuned weapon, then they're either stunting all over the place or they're trying to avoid attunement costs. One doesn't need stats because the player should not be allowed to fail, one doesn't need stats because the player should not be allowed to succeed.[/quote']
How about yankin' the daiklaive off the DB who's attacking you and then using it on him yourself?

 

[Kyeudo]

one doesn't need stats because the player should not be allowed to succeed.

I beg to differ. If you've plowed a metric ton of points into boosting your strength to godlike levels, you should see a pay off. If you can life a wagon over your head one handed, you should be able to wield a Daiklave unattuned, or the world ceases to make any form of logical sense.

 

[Skari-dono]

I'd probably double the Strength requirements for unattuned weapons (or just increase it by 2 or 3, that could work) and give it improvised weapon stats. I admit I have never actually faced this problem although I have given it some thought and I think it could work this way.

 

[Ryvaken Tadrya]

or the world ceases to make any form of logical sense.

And this is different from standard operating procedure how?


On a serious note, I'd go with the following.


Kill its accuracy to -3 or worse, defense to +1 or worse, give it the 2 tag if it didn't already have it, double the strength requirement if it did, reduce damage by 3 or half, whichever yields the greatest total damage. Overwhelming level should be cut in half to a minimum of 2. With a 2 die or higher stunt, use the weapon as if it were attuned (no material bonuses even if it's the right material for the exalt, no special powers, just basic weapon stats). If the player uses the weapon for most of a scene, tell him that he's attuned to it by reflex. If he lacks the motes to pay for attunement, sacrifice an older attunement to pay for the new one. If that can't cover it, he remains unattuned to the weapon but can choose attunement as a reflexive action once he has sufficient Essence to do so.

 

[Jeppe]

Solar Hero Style uses improvised weapons as form weapons - amongst these are mentioned unattuned daiklaives. Core. p. 242

 

[Arthur]

By my reckoning' date=' if someone is using an unattuned weapon, then they're either stunting all over the place or they're trying to avoid attunement costs. One doesn't need stats because the player should not be allowed to fail, one doesn't need stats because the player should not be allowed to succeed.[/quote']
How about yankin' the daiklaive off the DB who's attacking you and then using it on him yourself?

FWF's and her mechanical complexity...

 

[FluffySquirrel]

The problem with allowing people to use unnatuned daiklaves freely if they have high strength, is that high strength chars are suddenly getting weapons with no attunements, which might be a significant advantage.


Admittedly, there's no MM bonus.. but if it's a MM that doesn't match your exalt type, might well be the most efficient choice.


If it were allowed, I'd say to definitely give a penalty to the attack/defense of the weapons at least

 

[Kyeudo]

And this is different from standard operating procedure how?

Exalted makes plenty of sense, once you accept that people empowered by the gods themselves are running around ruling Creation with powers that can tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up.


I'd go with double the necessary Strength to wield a one handed artifact weapon two handed without attunement and twice that to wield it normally. For a two handed artifact weapon, I'd go with 4 times normal Strength to wield it normally and eight times normal Strength to wield it one handed. By the time that you can pull that off, you own Creation, so why not?

 

[Dracogryff]

Potentially unrelated, or potentially significant. First little sidebox on p. 374. Weapons and Strength. It doesn't say about wielding something unattuned, but it does detail how to wield a two-handed weapon one-handed. Triple the strength minimum (and that's if it's attuned, even). Adding only two or three to the minimums doesn't quite seem enough to me, considering this...


Me, I'd either take the above into consideration, and triple the minimums to wield it unattuned without penalty, or add the attunement cost to the minimum requirements perhaps...don't know how much that would work.


To me, the fact that a twinked out Lunar in strength could possibly pick up a WARSTRIDER weapon and swing it at someone is impressive and scary-making enough to not require allowing them to wield unattuned weapons without major penalties. *shrugs* Had an Alchemical once that could lift a Warstrider Daiklaive with buffing and swing it at someone...and wield his normal Grand Daiklaive one handed with a mere one die penalty (if he didn't buff, and with his 23 die pool...yeah)...I generally thought that was bad-ass enough for me.

 

[Ryvaken Tadrya]

Exalted makes plenty of sense, once you accept that people empowered by the gods themselves are running around ruling Creation with powers that can tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up.

Two words: (The) Mandala Accord.


Lords of Creation p47. Pretty much underlines how bureaucratic Exalted is. And bureaucracies never work.

 

[Kyeudo]

Two words: (The) Mandala Accord.


Lords of Creation p47. Pretty much underlines how bureaucratic Exalted is. And bureaucracies never work.

Never heard of it. From the sound of it, if I did have that book I'd probably ignore it.

 

[strawberryleaves]

Lords of Creation's from the Dreams of the First Age boxset.


While most people deplore a few notable parts of the mechanics created, the fluff tends to be pretty darn good.

 

[Skari-dono]

Exalted makes plenty of sense' date=' once you accept that people empowered by the gods themselves are running around ruling Creation with powers that can tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up.[/quote']
Two words: (The) Mandala Accord.


Lords of Creation p47. Pretty much underlines how bureaucratic Exalted is. And bureaucracies never work.

I believe you meant it is in Lands of Creation p47. I didn't find it on p47 of Lords at least but did find it on p47 of Lands. Just thought I should clear that up.

 

[Nemal]

By the time that you can pull that off, you own Creation, so why not?

If you find it cool, roll with it.


Me? I feel more comfortable if there's an actual explanation for why aresomeness works. "The Exalted are awesome" on its own doesn't work for me when explaining why a human-sized being can swing around a two-ton weapon.


If the weapon is attuned? The rulebook already states that its weight is suspended for the user. It's mildly hand-wavey, but it works as an explanation. Without attunement? Not so much. It doesn't matter that you can lift a mountain, if you try to swing a weapon much heavier than yourself, you will fail, because its momentum will throw you off.


Back to the daiklaive example... I'd basically give it enough penalties to leave it about on par with a mundane weapon, mostly on the Accuracy side, and call it a day. Not so much that the player is penalized for coming up with something cool, but enough that they don't consider it a feasible strategy for the long-term.

 

[Jukashi]

If the weapon is attuned? The rulebook already states that its weight is suspended for the user. It's mildly hand-wavey, but it works as an explanation. Without attunement? Not so much. It doesn't matter that you can lift a mountain, if you try to swing a weapon much heavier than yourself, you will fail, because its momentum will throw you off.

One assumes, however, that there are means and ways of compensating for such problems. Having superstrength doesn't just mean you can swing very hard, it also means you can compensate very hard. If you have multiple beings with such strength, they will develop a system of techniques and methods for using such weapons that minimizes such problems, and with the prevalence of such weapons in Creation they will be reasonably well-known by anyone with significant knowledge in that field, i.e. with a decent Melee rating.


Though, really, "because it's awesome" is a valid answer given Creation's version of physics. The primordials created Creation by essentially thinking it into being; gods maintain Creation by willfully enforcing a set of rules, which are not otherwise inherant. If a person is "awesome enough" then the god in question is momentarily taken aback or impressed and simply allows what they're doing to happen more easily. Perhaps the spirits of giant swords, since they want their swords to be used, actively suspend (to an extent) what we would think of as impossibility in their usage. Perhaps there's even some secret mechanism in Creation that rewards impressive deeds, put in place by the bored, entertainment-seeking primordials.


Or, in the case of Charms, the character releases essence in a way that temporarily enforces their will on the world instead of whatever divine functionary should be responsible.

 

[Nemal]

One assumes, however, that there are means and ways of compensating for such problems. Having superstrength doesn't just mean you can swing very hard, it also means you can compensate very hard.

This comes up fairly often in RPGs, not just Exalted.


See, thing about strength is... You can push up as much as you like, but how much you can pull is capped by your weight.


If you have Strength 1, or have Strength over nine thousand, you -still- can't pull a Zeppelin down. If you pull on that rope, you go up, the balloon doesn't come down. Strength doesn't help, you need to be heavier.


If you swing a one-ton sword, it doesn't matter how you apply your strength, because you're basically going to either let it go, or go along with it.


Now, Superman could probably pull this off, basically because he -can- apply his strength against the momentum, i.e. flying. A very strong Lunar? Not so much. Perhaps a flying, very strong Lunar...?


Now, back to Exalted...


I can buy "I have a Charm that allows me to ignore my huge weapon's momentum". Or knack, or whatever other supernatural explanation you want to give it.


Strength alone won't cut it, though. A mortal with strength over nine thousand wouldn't be able to effectively wield a grand daiklaive in melee, because of the momentum issue. The best way for him to attack with it would be by throwing it.


Incidentally, I'm cool with the "absurdly huge weapons" thing being the purview of Thrown. Melee combat implies a lot more mobility, to me, and what "heavy" basically means is that it can't change its trajectory easily. For Melee, that means inaccurate. For Thrown, it means damaging. It works well, both thematically and mechanically...

 

[Jukashi]

Perhaps.


But it strikes me that if you have a problem with the oversized swords, then there's lots of things in exalted you should have a problem with.

 

[Lord Kamina]

And who says that Strength doesn't in part determine your weight?


I mean, if you're trying to put physical meaning to all this shit... Strength is granted by muscle mass, and if you have more muscle mass, you have more muscle too. Or denser muscle, in the case of Superman.