Glorious Solar Saber/ Resplendant Shadow Blade mod

cyl

cyl

Creepy smile
Hello, I've thought about it in a game I'm actually running, so here's my mod:


The player defines the appearance of this blade when purchasing this Charm.


It starts as a Speed 4 (summoned blades shall be better than regular ones) Rate 2 (most regular and artifact weapons have this trait) weapon with 0 points in Acc/Dmg/Def.


The player then defines the form of the blade (it can any weapon used with melee) and spends Essence x4 points on the blade with the following modifications:


Reducing/ augmenting speed = -5/+5 points (limit speed 2)


Augmenting acc/dmg/ def = +1


Reducing/ augmenting Rate = -2/+2


adding a positive/negative tag = -2/+2


Acc/Def/Rate shall not be raised higher than Essence.


This way you can create 1H or 2H weapons at your convenience and can customize the weapon(s) of your dreams which will be equivalent to an Artifact rating 2-3 :)


Sidenote: the other parts of the charm cost, type duration keywords & SFX remain unchanged.


What do you think ?
 
Besides the fact that a single Charm allowing scenelong Speed 2 attacks goes beyond preposterous, what exactly is wrong with GSS as presented? It's not supposed to be as powerful as daiklaives, because otherwise, what's the point of daiklaives? Willpower isn't so hard to come by that it could balance that out. And don't forget, the Holy damage makes it even better than GDKs.


Unless you want everyone in your game to just take this Charm and make insanely powerful swords (which, I remind you, can never be truly disarmed) that totally throw off the balance, I'd recommend a serious retooling, if not abandonment, of this idea.


One thing I do like, though, is the ability to make any kind of Melee weapon. Be fair to the Solars who like spears and stuff.
 
However, GSS as is... allows you to make any kind of weapon. It's not restricted to just swords, even back in 1e, and now in canonical 2e.


So, yes, you COULD make smashfists with them or spears or even a needle.
 
Haku said:
However, GSS as is... allows you to make any kind of weapon. It's not restricted to just swords, even back in 1e, and now in canonical 2e.
So, yes, you COULD make smashfists with them or spears or even a needle.
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Nope, says "blade". 'sides, since you can't allocate Range, making a throwing weapon would be...not smart. Blade doesn't necessarily mean sword, but without a handle, it can't really be handled as anything else. So you would have to create "Glorious Solar Handle" too.


Solution: rewrite the Charm so that it can be any kind of melee weapon.
 
I'd say your modifications are good, but maybe the minimum speed should be 3. Besides that, it's ok. A player in a game of mine has a similar Artifact, but it allows only 8 points of realocation and already starts with some stats. It was too powerful for an Artifact 3, so he chose to make it cost 12 motes for attunement. I allowed it.
 
"Blade" doesn't limit the charm to swords and knives. Spears have blades too. A Smashfist could have blades. Also the shape of it doesn't matter, they will all funtion the same regardless.
 
Well:


- what exactly is wrong with GSS as presented? : it sucks real bad, you can't even make something equal to a standard klave (without MM bonuses) with it (a regular daiklave is 11points).


Then the infinite rate is a joke, and last but not least, until you get to essence 6 and melee 6 (not in a loooong time) you're stuck with those traits.


In 1e they had corona of radiance which allows similar and better effects than GSS, I dunno why they erased it from 2e, this one rocked.


- the speed problem, well that's a different story, I tried to make speed 2 blades with this mod with an essence 4 character... it leaves only 6 points to divide between acc/dmg/def... so it's not really a good choice to have a speed 2 blade until you're essence 5-6 (in which case you have to buy a new form of blades since you can't upgrade the former you had).


- One thing I do like, though, is the ability to make any kind of Melee weapon: thank you, that was the point, to craft a weapon expressing the personnality of the player and resonating with him :)


- now pros & cons:


* this weapon can be disarmed, the mechanism for retrieving it is a misceallanous diceless action (speed 5).


* it's a simple charm (speed 6)


* so you don't benefit from the weapon everytime you want to... you have to cast it first.

Nope, says "blade". 'sides, since you can't allocate Range, making a throwing weapon would be...not smart. Blade doesn't necessarily mean sword, but without a handle, it can't really be handled as anything else. So you would have to create "Glorious Solar Handle" too.


Solution: rewrite the Charm so that it can be any kind of melee weapon.
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Actually the text does say "saber" "blade" "weapon" and "larger sword"... so I guess it is natural to assume GSS creates only blades. I thought that sucked, and modified it :)
As for the speed 2-3, I thought about evolution of characters in the long run.


Will a mod "speed can't be raised under 3 until the character reaches essence 6" would do it ?


And thanks for your comments ! :)
 
Just because it's not equivalent to an artifact weapon doesn't mean it's bad. No commited motes, no worrying about them being stolen, even more unbreakable, and totally, completely customizeable (not to mention, free Holy). They're supposed to be slightly less powerful than a daiklaive (it's by about 4 of those "points" at Melee 5, once you factor in MM). Just remember that you're changing the value of the Artifact background entirely.
 
There is commitment (for the scene), the customization takes place at chargen for most artifacts...


+ an artifact is always at hand, you can stunt drawing/readying it, but channelling the blade is a speed 6 action, that cost 1W.
 
Oh, wow, commitment for the whole scene. This is opposed to commiting to it for the lifespan of a mortal or longer. Not exactly comparable.


Someone who's invested in having a permanent weapon should get more returns than someone who trained to have a magic trick for convenience. GSS can be used in more circumstances than a klaive can, and is also nice and Holy. Quite powerful enough. It's supposed to be inferior to daiklaives. They did it on purpose. Only change that if you don't want your players to be as happy with artifact weapons.
 
And yet a Lunar can have some seriously kick-ass weaponry for about the same, or possibly less, cost? Seems wonky to me.


Let's see. Combat twinked Full Moon with Claws of the Silver Moon, Deadly Beastman Transformation, and Devastating Ogre Enhancement has weapons with Speed 5, Accuracy +8, +9L/6L (+11L/6L with the Talons affliction taken with your mutation points), Defense +2, Rate 3 for a cost of 5 motes and a commitment of 3 motes. Oh, and they get two of these weapons for that commitment, plus two more toys with Speed 5, Accuracy +7, +12L/6L (+14L/6L with the Talons affliction), Defense -2, Rate 2. And I suppose a Clinch as well, rating at Speed 6, Accuracy +7, +9L/6L, and Rate 1, since it enhances all unarmed attacks, giving them 5 pretty damn nice weapons for that 8M (3 committed). And they're all unarmed attacks, so can't be disarmed (unless you de-arm the Lunar completely). Not too bad for 8 motes, only 3 of which you need to commit, I do say.


Now, tell me where that balances with 10 points (or 5 if you want speed 3) to allocate between Accuracy, Defence and Damage for commiting 6 motes and spending a willpower. *considers* Granted, you can get 10 in any one category, but it's nowhere near being able able to get 5 weapons that all have at least one of those at 9+ and another at 7+. Granted, it has infinite rate, but...with Extra Action Charms, Rate isn't all that big of a point, unless someone is crazy enough to allow the Second Excellency hack. Best you get there is something like Speed 5, +3 Accuracy, +4L, +3 Defense if you balance things, or Speed 3, +2 Accuracy, +2L, +1 Defense or the like with the faster toy. I don't know...doesn't seem on par. Expecially when you then consider you get only one toy with this, while the Lunar gets at least 5 (or 4, if an ST decides to house rule that a Clinch is not enhanced by it).


I assumed 5 in all physicals and 5 essence and a 5 melee for the examples, so ya know. Though the 5 melee matters not in the Lunar's case. They probably have 5 martial arts, instead, after all, since their Charm merely enhances unarmed attacks, and so is compatible with every single martial art in existence, and don't count as weapons, so are incompatible with melee. But I digress.


As to the upgrade cyl is suggesting here...seems potentially usable to me. Though, it does need a rule as to what giving something Overwhelming would do. I'm not sure I'd use it, at least not without some testing first, but it doesn't look too unreasonable. So long as you limit it to Speed 3 at max (since getting to speed 2 and then getting Hearthstone Bracers of Jade would be broken...at least in my game since I don't believe that those Bracers aren't double-attunable...which I'm not going to be drawn into another argument about either. >.>). And I'd probably start the weapon at Speed 5, myself. But that's me. I'd have to experiment with it some before forming a complete opinion, so take this with a grain of salt right now. *nods*
 
Small correction to your Claws of the Silver Moon example. A Full Moon at Essence 5, MA 5, and Dex 5 should have something like +15 for their accuracy on their claws, as the bonus is + (Dex), making the accuracy calculation MA (5) + Dex (5) + Acc (5) = 15. I think.


Oh, add the +2 Dex for DBT and DOE, pushing it to +19 acc before excellencies and other charms.


The reason that this Lunar charm is waaaay better than Glorious Solar Saber and such is because Lunars *need* this sort of consistent accuracy to be effective. It provides similar results to Solars' unblockable/undodgeable attacks, but with a Lunar flavor (overwhelming force, in contrast to Solars' manipulation of Essence).


You'll see this pattern consistently throughout the two Charmsets, and I think that they're good guidelines. Lunars have great things to overwhelm opponents and keep going (Lunar Fury Charms, Bruise-Relief Method, etc.), while Solars have things to just ignore it (Solar melee charms that I forget, Solar Hero Style, Adamant Skin technique to avoid getting hurt in the first place, etc).


So you see, Exalts get the same results by going about it differently. I think that the Solar charm is fine as presented in the book.
 
Well the Overwhelming tag becomes quickly useless once you've passed Essence 4... so I'd ignore it.


The only "useful" tags for melee weapons are P,R,T and D... and the only negative tag I can think of is 2.


And yes, I did this mod because I thought since corona of radiance's gone... solar needed to fight CoD with something more efficient than a speed 5 acc 3 dmg 5A def 2 Rate infinite...


The bug Haku revealed few months ago (split indefinitely, and buy suxx with 2nd excellency) made me think about the uselessness of GSS.
 
You could compy the lunars and go with 'Overwhelmning', with essence +1 as the minimum damage. Or what I gave the DBs, minimum damage of (Ability or Essence, whichever is higher).
 
Thing is: I didn't want the charm to be almighty neither.


The charm doesn't evolve with the character, every time the character raises his essence traits and wants to get an upgrade, he has to buy the charm to forge a new blade... crap the number of purchases is still limited to Melee (need to take care of that too).


Maybe starting with an essence 4 example wasn't the best thing to do.


With an essence 3 character you get 9 points.


Speed 4, acc+3 Dmg +3L/A Def +3 Rate 2... slightly better than a short daiklave.


What bothered me with the charm was that from essence 3 to 10, there was no serious upgrade (I mean +2 for boosting Essence AND melee... after Essence 6) so I thought it would be cool to make it kinda evolutive.


It doesn't come ugly before essence 5/6, but at that point... a solar drawing his blade should do ugly things :)
 
NateDojo said:
Small correction to your Claws of the Silver Moon example. A Full Moon at Essence 5, MA 5, and Dex 5 should have something like +15 for their accuracy on their claws, as the bonus is + (Dex), making the accuracy calculation MA (5) + Dex (5) + Acc (5) = 15. I think.
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I am not giving the full dice you would roll, just the accuracy of the weapon itself as it would be displayed if it were listed with the other weapons in the core book. Thus the reason why it's listed as '+8 Accuracy,' instead of something like a '23 accuracy pool' (which is what a fully kitted out Lunar with 5 MA, 3 Specialty, 7 Dex would have for a punch; the kick would be one less accurate). That + in front of the numbers are there for a reason. Taking that into account, you'll find my numbers are accurate to what they should be.


If I'd wanted to display their pool, for one, I would have said their accuracy pool was this, and also, I wouldn't have put a + in front of the number. So no, I'm not wrong with my numbers...it was merely a misinterpretation. If I'd wanted to give out actual pools, I would have used the word 'pool' in reference to my numbers instead of 'stats,' and I wouldn't have put '+'s in front of them. Just for future reference.

cyl said:
Well the Overwhelming tag becomes quickly useless once you've passed Essence 4... so I'd ignore it.
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Depends on the Overwhelming (if you gave it the Overwhelming that a Lunar has on their Claws of Essence+1, it's certainly not useless), but in general, you're indeed correct without house rules. *shrugs* Was just saying in case one wanted to make it have a non-useless 'O' option. No biggie.


*chuckles as Haku sneaks in a post mentioning the Lunars Claws 'O' while she was typing this* Well, beaten to the punch. Oh well. :)
 
Well, actually you get to change the stats for a purchased GSS whenever your melee goes up, like, for free. That's okay though, you'll only want to purchase it twice.


You build one GSS with maxed Accuracy, and another with maxed Defense. Speed 5 variants.


Assuming the Solar has 5s across the board without specialties...


Accuracy for the first sword is a +10, Defense for the second is a +10. Actual combat stats would give the theoretical Solar an attack with 20 accuracy and... 10 for defense. Which means that when pressed for defense, the Solar will normally come out ahead of said Lunar (who can muster up 7, if you round up, which I think you're supposed to).


Damage doesn't matter because with the full flurry of an infinite rate you'll be throwing your base strength, which really means min essence, at a target some... 10 times? Is that right? Anyway, the Lunar will be at DV0 by the end up if, and you'll ping him more than a few times. Now here is where the strategy falls apart... assuming the Lunar has no hardness (or less than the Solar's str), he'll be turned into paste. Which leaves the Solar with no PDV. Good thing said Solar has easy access to Perfects right?


I can argue about how much I love Solar melee later.


Oh, and hello, apparently I had an active acount here for a few months without ever using it.
 
Hello :)

Accuracy for the first sword is a +10, Defense for the second is a +10. Actual combat stats would give the theoretical Solar an attack with 20 accuracy and... 10 for defense. Which means that when pressed for defense, the Solar will normally come out ahead of said Lunar (who can muster up 7, if you round up, which I think you're supposed to).
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Which is exactly why I designed this mod... this automatic repartition sickens me.
Well, actually you get to change the stats for a purchased GSS whenever your melee goes up, like, for free. That's okay though, you'll only want to purchase it twice.
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You are totally right. My bad.
That's okay though, you'll only want to purchase it twice.
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That's the whole problem, no versatility, no savor, no sense of style... 2 blades +10 acc +10 def... pure shameless optimized combat efficiency without any class...
What I proposed was meant to be a substitute for weapons, allowing the solar to adopt "soul/essence blades" resonating with his style and fighting personnality, giving the weapon tags like 2, R,P, D, even C, which in a manner, define the weapon and its use.
 
I'll say this as well.


Any ST who doesn't let you call your Glorious Solar Saber, a Grand Solar Sledge or Gregarious Solar Shield or whatever is being a jerk and is too strict with RAW.


The GSS combo is just the most efficient method I know of, its not always the best though, as I mentioned, a target with hardness over 5 is going to just shrug off the damage completely. There are ways around it, but none of them are that great.


None of that matters if the player isn't trying to twink anyway. If its a severe problem I'd emulate Immaculate Golden Bow before overhauling the charms completely. As a side note, the reason GSS is so mutable is that Melee is the catch-all combat skill. It has perfects defenses, ranged attacks, scene-long defenses, damage and accuracy boosters... A character who only wants to be competant in combat while focusing on something else should go into Melee. That's why Melee's essence equipment is... different. There are many reasons a Solar may take Melee, and considering its location in the Charm tree (utility), it makes sense that the Solar can straight up decide how his weapon will work.


If you want to add tags, I'd let the Solar either purchase a permanent charm that, like Essence Arrow attack allows them to repurchase the charm at reduced cost, in order to apply more effects to it, or just have it be a natual part of the charm that self upgrades. Every time essence goes up add a new tag.


2-Handed weapon could add more points for the blade (+4 maybe?). Overwhelming would be essence derived like others said. Reach is obvious, so is Piercing. Clinch would just have stats derived from Melee. I'm... not sure what D is... oh wow Disarming.


Never knew that tag existed. Corebook only uses it twice.
 
I'll not get in the inevitable endless thread MA vs Melee, because I can go for hours on that.


Melee lacks things as MA does, the equation balances itself, the smart fighter won't rely on only one ability, and most of the charms accuracy has, melee should have them too.


A player made a charm who automatically boosts the Acc/Dmg/Def/Rate (just like IGB, with 4 more points for def) of a weapon by his Essence (for a similar cost than GSS) but it requires wielding a weapon, but another one wanted to made his own blade(s) from his own essence.


Hence why I made this mod :)


About the tags: since I couldn't find a reason why a charm would add a tag to a weapon (EAA is supplemental by the way), and it did not seem appropriate (pay two motes, gain the P tag...) I thought it'd be easier if the GSS allowed the "crafting" of a weapon from every point of view.


Making a ratio about the use of tags (let's face it, the only really powerful tag is P), most of them were funny (T, D, C) other defined the appearance of the weapon (2, R), and 2 imposes a "limitation" (like it's a problem in exalted)... so I tried to make it easy to craft an essence blade, 2 pts per tag was the cheapest way I thought of.


Plus I tried to limit this extreme optimization (+10acc/def) which is unparalleled and breaks the balance of the game (IMHO) at only essence 3, mainly because with the actual GSS, for 10m 1W, a solar can get the maximum magical bonuses he can get in a fight, on every single roll, for the scene.
 
cyl said:
Plus I tried to limit this extreme optimization (+10acc/def) which is unparalleled and breaks the balance of the game (IMHO) at only essence 3, mainly because with the actual GSS, for 10m 1W, a solar can get the maximum magical bonuses he can get in a fight, on every single roll, for the scene.
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I actually had a player who did this. The game never got off the ground, but I didn't even need to see a combat scene to be ticked off. It wasn't even a combat character, just someone who used 4 Charms to exceed even the Dawn in combat capability.


Yours can still be broken, though. Low speed is nasty. It's how the DBs kill Celestials so easily. Pairs of jade shortklaives.
 
Well, for an essence 3 solar, you can't really go down below speed 3 else the blade you'll use for attacking will go "clink" (fucking hardness) against most armored opponents, or you will loose in acc and def what you sacrificed in speed, and this is not really a good option.


At essence 4, you can will get a really nice offensive blade with speed 3 (you still have 11 points to distribute to acc/dmg/def) but the fact that the magical bonus is limited to Essence makes the mod more balanced than the corebook version of GSS.


In truth if the attack and defense are "boosted" by the speed reducing, it doesn't make the character almighty, on the contrary, he's likely to burn motes faster, though maybe less willpower.


As I said, maybe limiting to Speed 3 could be an option to balance the equation.
 
Also... people are forgetting that the charm can be enhanced by Essence Lenses (ie. modified elemental lenses). If you think this is unlikely... look at the text of the artifact where they discuss Deathlords coming out abyssal variants and think on the solars in the first age NOT coming up with a variant for themselves and their GSS, and essence weaponary.
 
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