fighting deathlords

[Kindle]

Autocthon is considered the weakest in raw power when compared to other primordials. So there are 7 yozis we know of and lets say 7 malfeans we don't nkow of. That makes of at leats 112 sub gods equivalents in the primordial war who are around the uncounquered sun in power+ behemoths and the primordials themselves.  
How in the name of creation could the exalted defeat them? Suprise attack or no suprise attack it just doesn't add up. And the numbers I mentioned do not include the races of the primordials children. Keep in mind that the exalted weren't so old and so well equiped as they were in the golden first age.


I think the power of the sub gods is an overstatement unless the elementals dragons and the celestines are a lot weaker than what we assumed.

*the voice of kindle's angry ghost is forced to speak after thinking he could finally rest in peace (i.e. It was my day off, so I couldn't respond...yes, I'm posting from work 8) )


First off, I never said that I agreed with the books interpretation of his subgods, I was merely trying to show a different point of view of them.


As for Autochthon being the weakest, while the other Primordials treated him as an inferior, largely because he didn't look, or think like they did, that doesn't necessarily mean that he was weaker. Unless you can show me, I don't believe any of the books say he is actually weaker. There are always social misfits in most mythologies, but this didn't necessarily mean that they were any weaker than their fellow gods, just different.


How could the Exalted defeat them? Overwhelming numbers. There were tens of thousands of DBs, Hundreds of Solars and Lunars, and a Hundred Sidereals. While the Gods couldn't directly interfere, I'm sure they made every effort to hinder the Primordials, all the while helping the Exalted, in whatever little ways they could (i.e. "Look, these pathetic exalted of yours are trying to kill me. Unconquered Sun, go fetch my sword, so that I may teach them a lesson in humility." "Yes sir," UC runs into the back room and "conveniently" can't seem to find his master's sword, all the while hearing.."UC? Umm...I need my sword....anytime now.....ah shi....":wink: ). Also, Autochthon made the weapons for the Exalted, so I'm sure he made them powerful enough to actually hurt the primordials.


This is all speculation of course. I can't really tell you how they did it, just as I can't honestly tell you how the Greek gods defeated the more powerful Titans...The stories tell me that they did, for better, or for worse, so I have to go with what they say.

 

[Persell]

Does this means I win if Safim declines?

I did not even decline yet, I was just not online to see your answer. And no, reality doesn't change if I "decline". I don't mind, let sorrow have a go with his lunar if he wants to, we will probably do the same anyway. twink our way to essence 4 and kill the pesky alchemical with 4 times DBT.

 

[Kindle]

We aren't talking about your soak monster machine god protocol essence 6-7 alchemical of death. We are talking about a battle between an essence 3 moonsilver alchemical against a Lunar who has his own territory in Creations map! The only lunars that have territories in Creations map are Tamuz, Uka, Ma-Ha suchi, Rakshi and so on... even if he is weaker than them he should be able to defeat an essence 3 alchemical.

Neither was I. Yes, some of the things I quoted, I picked up in game, but most of it I had, either right at the start, or by the time I faced off against my first Lunar. My Story Teller prepared the Lunar to be of equal exp and equipped as I was, and I beat him in a fair fight...well, as fair as a Lunar is willing to make it anyway. :wink:


I think Alchemicals have gotten a pretty bad rap on this site, overall. Yes, they are limited, in that they can't have as many charms on them as other exalts can, at least as they become more experienced, but what they have is nothing to laugh at.


They can achieve higher soak potential than most, if not all other Exalted types. They have low essence cost and effective defensive charms, Some of their Man-machine/God-machine Protocols are just insanely powerful, and they can acquire several martial arts styles, without having to find a master, or explain how they got them. They simply go to their Vat, request the appropriate download, pay the exp and BAMB! "I know Kung-Fu."

Another thing that annoyed me is the 2 Alchemical invade Yu shan. When Yu-shan had already 10 times the normal guard at the said gate. Just to make it clear 10 times the normal guard means 30 celestial Lions at the front, a gate that can not be opened in any way and has an insane soak and number of HL, 60 celestail lions after you open the gate + anybody you came to help them in containing what's invading Yu-shan. But clearly two alchemicals should be able to slay them all, unleash automatons which will bring great disturbance in Yu shan AND return safely home...

I agree. There are many scenarios in the book that I don't agree with. I don't think an Alchemical can beat a higher Essence, more experienced Lunar...unless he's very lucky. I don't think 2 Alchemicals can walk into Yu Shan cause havoc and then just walk out. I definitely don't think 3 Moon Silver Castes can successfully kill 5 out 9 Abyssals, even with the element of surprise.


I won't argue with any of these situations, but that doesn't mean that I agree that an Alchemical will lose 95% of the time to an equally experienced Lunar.

 

[Sorrow]

*the voice of kindle's angry ghost is forced to speak after thinking he could finally rest in peace (i.e. It was my day off, so I couldn't respond...yes, I'm posting from work 8) )

*Takes out a pouch full of salt*

First off, I never said that I agreed with the books interpretation of his subgods, I was merely trying to show a different point of view of them.

Ah sorry then.


Just for the record I was wrong to say 7 improsoned Yozis they are 23 recorded ones. So we are talking about 184 "subgods" not counting the ones from the dead Malfeans.

As for Autochthon being the weakest, while the other Primordials treated him as an inferior, largely because he didn't look, or think like they did, that doesn't necessarily mean that he was weaker. Unless you can show me, I don't believe any of the books say he is actually weaker. There are always social misfits in most mythologies, but this didn't necessarily mean that they were any weaker than their fellow gods, just different.

Is is mentioned in a book somewhere that he had a sick health when compared to other primordials.


So I am assuming he was physically weaker but none could exceed him in creating things. It like the other primordials had higher physical attributes while he had higher mental ones. So not really weak just strong in a different way.

How could the Exalted defeat them? Overwhelming numbers. There were tens of thousands of DBs, Hundreds of Solars and Lunars, and a Hundred Sidereals. While the Gods couldn't directly interfere, I'm sure they made every effort to hinder the Primordials, all the while helping the Exalted, in whatever little ways they could (i.e. "Look, these pathetic exalted of yours are trying to kill me. Unconquered Sun, go fetch my sword, so that I may teach them a lesson in humility." "Yes sir," UC runs into the back room and "conveniently" can't seem to find his master's sword, all the while hearing.."UC? Umm...I need my sword....anytime now.....ah shi....":wink: ). Also, Autochthon made the weapons for the Exalted, so I'm sure he made them powerful enough to actually hurt the primordials..

Hmm I might agree with you before but now seeing they were so many primordials 23+ I find it hard to do so. Assuming that the primordial "subgods" are so powerful as presented in the autobook.


If the subgods aren't that strong I admit it is entirely possible.

This is all speculation of course. I can't really tell you how they did it, just as I can't honestly tell you how the Greek gods defeated the more powerful Titans...The stories tell me that they did, for better, or for worse, so I have to go with what they say.

If i remeber it correctly the greek gods just kicked Titans ass and were done with it :wink: . (I don't have a book with me, but I don't think that the titans were more powerful...)

 

[Sorrow]

Neither was I. Yes, some of the things I quoted, I picked up in game, but most of it I had, either right at the start, or by the time I faced off against my first Lunar. My Story Teller prepared the Lunar to be of equal exp and equipped as I was, and I beat him in a fair fight...well, as fair as a Lunar is willing to make it anyway. :wink:
I think Alchemicals have gotten a pretty bad rap on this site, overall. Yes, they are limited, in that they can't have as many charms on them as other exalts can, at least as they become more experienced, but what they have is nothing to laugh at.


They can achieve higher soak potential than most, if not all other Exalted types. They have low essence cost and effective defensive charms, Some of their Man-machine/God-machine Protocols are just insanely powerful, and they can acquire several martial arts styles, without having to find a master, or explain how they got them. They simply go to their Vat, request the appropriate download, pay the exp and BAMB! "I know Kung-Fu."


I won't argue with any of these situations, but that doesn't mean that I agree that an Alchemical will lose 95% of the time to an equally experienced Lunar.

I assume your alchemical was well made and played, that's why he won.


Keep in mind that starting Lunars are the most powerfull sort of starting exalt due DBT and regeneration. I can tell you, I once begun a campaign with 2 solars and 1 lunar who started with 3 BDT :roll: ! Thankfully power combat ping damage helped to fix that.  


Comparing Lunar and alchemicals:


The thing with Lunars is that mechanically they can be twinked to monstrous power or left to be weaker than even a dragonblood. It has to do with the fact that their charms weren't nicely done. Because they had one super charm every charm got more exprensive. I didn't like that and thankfully the 2nd edition Lunar charms seem to correct this.  


Alchemicals are much better done and really do have some kick ass potential.


Fluff wise Lunar being celestials are supposed to be slightly more powerful than the alchemicals.


Fluff wise again alchemicals give Lunars the saft in the auto book.  


Alchemicals do not have an age cap. Lunars do. An alchemical can be potentially 4500 years old no lunar is that old. On average alchemicals should be older than Lunars.


Hasn't anything to do with the matter at hand but since I have never used an alchemical, while you play one... could you tell me how the system with the charmslots plays out. I mean how many charms your alchemical has and how many slots? I want to know of the ratio charms and slots have. Obviously charms will be more...


Also tell me which of the protocols are the best in your opinion?

 

[Jakk Bey]

It's not a matter of folks giving them a bad rap--Jeebus Frist how many Steam Faction monkeys abound here?--it's just that folks see a larger picture.


Alchemicals are limited.  They can be finely focused, and that's a strength for them.  Focused to being Craftsmen.  Focused to being war machines.  Focused to being lots of things.  But, they can't achieve the same heights that the other Exalts can at higher levels of Essence.  


They are different animals, and their setting material reflects that difference.  They are almost different games in that sense.  


Combat isn't the only thing that stories are about, and if you want wider ranges of tales, the Alchemicals aren't great for that.  To tell a good tale for Alchemicals means a focus on that setting, while you get a wider palette for Solars, DBs, or Lunars.  


Sidereals are likewise limited in their tales.  Same for Abyssals.  No hoo hoo there, but before setting out to tell an Alchemical, Sidereal, or Abysasal chronicle, you need to be prepared for a certain style of tale.  


And those tales aren't for everyone.  No hoo there.  But acknowleding that isn't "giving them a bad rap"--it's being realistic...

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Also tell me which of the protocols are the best in your opinion?

I'd say on the whole, they're not better than sorcery, but Jesus H, have you READ some of those ridiculous things?

 

[Kindle]

I apologize in advance for this incredibly long post... ops:  ops:

Comparing Lunar and alchemicals:
The thing with Lunars is that mechanically they can be twinked to monstrous power or left to be weaker than even a dragonblood. It has to do with the fact that their charms weren't nicely done. Because they had one super charm every charm got more exprensive. I didn't like that and thankfully the 2nd edition Lunar charms seem to correct this.  


Alchemicals are much better done and really do have some kick ass potential.

The nice thing about Alchemicals is that they too can be twinked. However, they can also purchase charms at a much cheaper cost, that stay back at the Vat. This way, an Alchemical can be twinked for combat and for 10+ motes + some Willpower, and a little Man-Machine Protocol mixed in, be twinked for social events in just a few turns (I'll explain this when I mention the best Man/God-Machine Protocols below). This allows them to be diverse, yet very focused, depending on what the situation calls for.

.Fluff wise Lunar being celestials are supposed to be slightly more powerful than the alchemicals.

Alchemicals were designed to be the equals of Celestials, not less powerful. While they are more limited, in the long run because of the maximum number of charms they can have on them at any given time, the effectiveness and costs of many of their charms, makes up for this limitation.

Fluff wise again alchemicals give Lunars the saft in the auto book.

I agree. While it does say at the beginning that the book was a bit biased towards the Autochthonians, I think they went overboard with it.

Hasn't anything to do with the matter at hand but since I have never used an alchemical, while you play one... could you tell me how the system with the charmslots plays out. I mean how many charms your alchemical has and how many slots? I want to know of the ratio charms and slots have. Obviously charms will be more...
Also tell me which of the protocols are the best in your opinion?

Sure thing. I'll try to keep this short. :wink:


Your charm slots are limited by your personal essence. If you run out of personal essence because of instillation costs, you can't install any more charms. Arrays, which are Alchemical versions of Combos, reduce the installation costs by a quarter, so if you have 4 charms, that all have a 1 instillation costs, in an array, it will only costs you 3 personal essence.


Your Personal pool is Essencex3 + Willpower, so at Essence 7, I had 31 maximum slots. While not all charms have an installation costs, others actually have a 2 cost, instead of 1. At the end of the campaign (it just ended last Wednesday :cry: ) I had a total of 34 charms on me, with about 15 to 20 waiting back at the Vat, that I could swap out, replacing some of the ones on me.  Starting characters could have roughly 14 or so charm slots, depending on their Essence lvl and willpower. Charms like Perfected Lotus Matrix and Man/God-Machine Weaving Engine allow you to learn Martial Arts and Protocols, respectively, without spending extra charm slots.


The best Man-Machine and God-Machine Protocols, IMHO, are listed below with a brief explanation of what they do. The ones I had on almost all the time, or at least before entering known combat, are listed in bold. There are many more nice protocols that I won't list for space saving purposes


Man-Machine Protocols (equal to Terrestrial level Sorcery).


Docility Assurance Field: a bit costly (25m+1W) but raps around an individual for at leasts an hour and forces them to take either 1 lvl of bashing damage for every mote of essence the spent, or 1 lvl of Lethal damage for every 2 motes of essence spent (you decide which at the time of casting), which can only be soaked by the target's Essence rating.


Probability Degradation Matrix: 15m+1W All Enemies in a 10 yard radius have bad luck. 10's only count as a single success, 1's count against successes and the enemies' target number for all rolls is increased by 1. (I love this protocol!!!  8) ) This protocol evens the playing field against all but the most powerful enemies, in close combat. Its simply ridiculous and it lasts for at least 1 hour!


Static Essence Absorption Protocol: 5m+1W, and you can absorb upto your essencex2 motes from any item, like a committed weapon or a hearthstone. The item then needs to be recommitted, or the hearthstone stops working for 6, minus its rating, hours. (very nice protocol, makes committed weapons and the like less useful and gave me back some essence to boot!)


Vat Surrogate Reweaving Technique: 10m+1W and you can instantly swap out 1 charm with another charm that is sitting back at the Vat. (another great protocol).


God-Machine Protocols (equal to Celestial level Sorcery)


Auspicious Reformatting Mudra: Allows the weaver to completely change the fundamental pattern of an Automaton or machine, assigning it a new destiny. The more powerful abilities of this protocol allow you to basically change a Machine spirit into an artifact that is equal to half the weaver's Essence (round up), or make a machine spirit into a familiar of equal rating to the weaver's Essence, or change one artifact into another artifact of equal rating! (Insanely powerful! :lol: )


Essence Matrix Inversion Procedure: 10m+2W, Lasts 1 day and any protocols or sorcery, short of Solar or Void Circle level, that targets, or has the weaver in its area of effect, are reflected back at the Caster. This also effects purely essence based attacks, such as Implosion bows and Essence Cannons. (ridiculously powerful!!! 8)  :lol: )


The Maker's Advanced Defense Array: 25m+2W, lasts 12 hours. Surrounds the Weaver with hundreds of adamant Shurikens that buzz around him at impossibly fast speed, creating a protective sphere of smoothly arcing blades.This grants the weaver a hardness of 10, and a +20 to their L/B soak. In addition, the blades shatter any non-magical weapon on a roll of 1 to 9 and shatter a magical weapon on a roll of a 1. Attackers using natural weapons, like claws, take 10L damage (soakable as usual) and if they take 2 or more health lvls of damage, their limb is severed. (another incredibly powerful protocol! :wink: )

 

[Kindle]

Jeebus Frist how many Steam Faction monkeys abound here?.

Hey, what can I say, I'm just a sucker for things that are out of the norm. :lol: I love Lunars too, but I really hate how costly and poorly arranged their charms are. I'm glad to see that the 2nd Ed. Lunar charms seem to be made MUCH better...at least from the small teaser that they've shown us so far.

Alchemicals are limited.  They can be finely focused, and that's a strength for them.  Focused to being Craftsmen.  Focused to being war machines.  Focused to being lots of things.  But, they can't achieve the same heights that the other Exalts can at higher levels of Essence.  
They are different animals, and their setting material reflects that difference.  They are almost different games in that sense.  


Combat isn't the only thing that stories are about, and if you want wider ranges of tales, the Alchemicals aren't great for that.  To tell a good tale for Alchemicals means a focus on that setting, while you get a wider palette for Solars, DBs, or Lunars.  


Sidereals are likewise limited in their tales.  Same for Abyssals.  No hoo hoo there, but before setting out to tell an Alchemical, Sidereal, or Abysasal chronicle, you need to be prepared for a certain style of tale.  


And those tales aren't for everyone.  No hoo there.  But acknowleding that isn't "giving them a bad rap"--it's being realistic...

For the most part, I agree. However, the primary reason I say that they get a bad rap, is because many people seem to think they are simply weaker in combat than the other Celestial Exalts. Sorrow and Safim are perfect examples of this and I disagree with them (although they are a lot of fun to argue with :wink: ). More limited in their versatility, I'll agree with, but not weaker in combat. Although, as I pointed out in my previous, incredibly long post, one Man-Machine Protocol helps to lesson their lack of versatility quite a bit.

 

[Sorrow]

Thanks a lot for your answers Kindle! Though my players will hate you am afraid :twisted: . Especially the dawn with the Daiklave of Conquest when his weapon gets deattuned.


Also one last question: I can't seem to find how many Alchemicals exist. Does anybody know where their numbers are mentioned?

 

[Kindle]

Thanks a lot for your answers Kindle! Though my players will hate you am afraid :twisted: . Especially the dawn with the Daiklave of Conquest when his weapon gets deattuned.
Also one last question: I can't seem to find how many Alchemicals exist. Does anybody know where their numbers are mentioned?

That, or his Daiklave could be broken, but I that might be a bit mean to break a Daiklave of Conquest. :twisted:


As for their numbers, they don't really say, but I've read on the forums that there are around 2,000, give or take upto possibly another 1,000. I don't know if these numbers are true or not, but that's what I remember reading.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

I've always kept my numbers about 1,500 or 2,000 of the Alchies. The most that ever see Creation are probably 1,000 at most.