Exalted Tech (or, what the hell is wrong with me?)

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Diamond Viper

New Member
So I was thinking, after noticing that Exalted has actually made a whole-hearted attempt to breathe life into a fantasy world (unlike the eternal Medieval happy fields of Forgotten Realms):


Does technology advance? Can it actually advance into something else? Apparently the TRhaumaturgical Tech of essenc-drivn and fueled machines is far more costly and dangerous for mortals and limited to the numbers of the Exalts. Still, a great number of brilliant minds rises now and then among the mortal population, who CAN and DO make a difference.


So, can steam or other engines be developed? Could mortal-warstriders be built? They will obviously be cheaper, greater in number, though less hardy than their MM cousins.


What about firearms? Advancing the firewands, using the Solar Tech of Guzosha and Ashigaru to build crude super-soldier types? Flying machines that draw their basic principles from lookshy's aeroplanes?


How long would it take to advanc in such a manner? Can it actually happen? Could Exalts assist?


Next question. How advanced is the MagiTech of Exalts? How far had the Twilights advanced in the First Age? Maybe the First Age was the Orwelian nightmare of RIFTS with super advanced mecha and machines oiver man, breeding pens for sacrificial victims and Factory Cathedrals built upon whole nations?


What do you think?
 
These are interesting questions. Certainly, within the realm of mundane technology, there is much room for progression. However,  from a thematic perspective, I don't think a ton of innovation is likely without the influence of Autocthon in Creation. I picture technology being fairly stagnant until (and if) he returns.


As to "magitech", the curve seems to be limited to one's personal magical might, as the DBs are simply not capable of producing the same levels of Artifacts as the Celestials, though the Solars can produce the best of all. Before the ToT, I think magitech was somewhat stagnant as well. The few Exalts powerful enough to make really advanced Artifacts have been too busy simply keeping the world together. The return of Solars should set off some change, I think.


-S
 
When you have access to Essence, and Sorcery, and Demons, and Spirits, and Small Gods, are you going to bother with other technologies?


Not everyone has the full on access to such goodies, and thus there are water wheels for milling grain, but for the big stuff, you've got Sorcerers and Thaumaturges.  


I did my treatment for Mystech in The Long Second Age Setting--but even this Mystech relies on a LOT of Essence, imprisoned Spirits, Demons, and tapping the Wyld for Essence.  Rather than using fuels, the Long Second Age puts Demons into specially prepared stones, with careful Bindings, to allow them to use their powerz for the greater good.  Move drive shafts, lift objects, turn on lights, pull heat from boxes to chill food.  LOTS of Demons and Spirits fed to the Real fron Yu-Shan's rolls, because it helps the Celestial Bureacracy keep control in getting rid of trouble makers and scaring the pee out the rest so they don't wind up spending twenty years powering a male dipiliatory wand.


Just straight steam power?  Possible, especially with access to the 5MM, but even then, if you can enchant something, why develop other methods?   Material advances aren't going to be really active--5MM take precedence over any other "straight" alloys.  And if you've got access to the 5MM why not use them?  To their full advantage?  


The thing is, in The Long Second Age setting, even the wonders of the Realm's mile high cities and the Wall draining Essence from the Wyld are still not in line with the Wonders of the First Age.  That was when Solars ruled the land, with full access to Solar Sorcery, Celestial Sorcerers all over the place, and hordes of Terrestrial Sorcerers to do the work with them, and a few more hordes of Thaumaturges to do their dirty work as well.  I put the First Age "tech" level as being pretty high, albeit magically based.  Instant communications, Mana Machines, all sorts of goodies, all based on magic, not tech.  


While the idea of a Dystopian First Age is interesting, I would rather it be much more pastoral--something to look back upon, with the approval of the Mandate of Heaven.  Perhaps towards the end of the First Age, you see signs of horrible happenings, the hubris of the Solars taking over, and then getting elements of dystopia, but not at its height.  Thematically, that's the Golden Age that everyone looks back to with awe and wonder.  In a mythic setting, that's an important theme, and the rather post-modern idea of rampant technology over humanity isn't really appropriate.  


One of the reasons that the Long Second Age Setting has its dystopian, cyclopian Realm at the other end of the spectrum is to set off that Golden Age, to show how far things have come, and how out of whack they are.  


Starting off with a dark past like the one you propose means changing the theme of the Realm today, and much of the game--in a game where the Solars were Anathema, horrible monsters of unbridaled passions and power, then it's not a bad idea, but if you want to use the Great Curse to any effect, their Fall has to be gradual, show a great loss of potential.
 
What I was actually talking about is if, in your opinion, can MagiTech be actually not overcome, but evolve into something else. Apparently, its exclusive availability to the Exalts has led it to a standpoint. The secrets of the First Age wonders (at least according to what we've seen up to now canonicaly) have been lost or are no longer applicable.


I see this as giving the chance to mortals to make a difference. But that's my opinion. IMHO, I believe Exalted is much like Neon Genesis Evangelion, with the exception that the champions aren't 100-ft tall mechs. I see the advance in technology as humanity's means to rid itself of rulers.


To be more precise, I don't see why solars wouldn't BE the Anathema they are claimed to be by the Immaculate texts. The Great Curse is far more than a hindrance or a sociopathic crisis. It slowly corrupts you into being something else. The First Age Solars, having spent millenia of life and having achieved nigh godlike status would be evil god-kings in theri own, direct or indirect approach.


Goody-goody solars would be locked in a good-hearted attempt to save their people from alla sorts of evil and would probably put their nations and cities in bottles to keep them safe or resort to mind control.


Crazy-assed Twilights would probably make super-powered weapons and enclose themselves in impregnable fortresses in the heavens, to bombard any possible enemy with alla sorts of WMDs, etc., etc.


In my opinion, the Solars had the Usurpation coming for their shiny asses and there was nothing they can do about it. When creeps like Kal Bax could kill children for disturbing his tea or level cities just because they were a waste of parking space, I don;t find it odd that the BDs killed them in their sleep.


Problem is, what happens when they come back?
 
My whole take on steamtech in Exalted is this: it's not efficient enough.


 Sure, there are mortal tinkerers and craftsmen, but all of them end up using Essence techniques to get ahead via thaumaturgy. As long as thaumaturgy and sorcery are available and (relatively) common, there would be no incentive to develop Essence-free technology.


 Burn coal to generate energy for use? A bound fire elemental will do as well, or a Ritual of Elemental Empowerment, or even demon hamsters running in their wheels--without constant upkeep and the necessity of raw materials.


 Now, if there were a Second Usurpation, and the DBs also become classified as Anathema...after a few hundred years, Essence manipulation may become scarce enough that alternate technologies start to advance.


 Think of it as the current natural fuel dilemma--despite warnings that Earth is rapidly going through its stores of natural gas, coal, and other natural fuels, there will be no strong incentive to develop alternate energy sources until the cost of said fuels rise to such a point as to make the research into AES a financially palatable one.
 
Hm, then how about customizing it? I never said ridding of essence techniques, but advancing in a scientific level, for example by advances in machinery, the use of complex engines that could be used as factories. Jakk's ideas are nice but they are more like looking at RY 2525, while I try to focus in the 'steampunk' era more like China Mieville's novels.
 
Again, I'll mention that these kinds of innovations are inspired by/born from Autochthon. He is almost literally the very concept embodied. As he has left the world, so has the potential for Creation to acheive these ends.


Of course, this is entirely thematic. There's no rational reason why making a steam-powered skyship wouldn't work, it's just unlikely that anyone would even try.


-S
 
The game I run, Gods of Eden, introduced steam power and other innovations.  Their source was a wide-spread cult of Autochthon, who were promoting 'pure science' as a rival to Essence.  It's about two centuries old, but hasn't widely caught on.  The reason is that steam power doesn't have a clear chain of authority in the Celestial Hierarchy, and since steam involves all five elements, elemental spirits will freely compete with each other or meddle in any large-scale application of steam power.


In general I assume that "mundane high technology" never really came about because there is no cultural pressure for it to happen, at all.  It takes things like an Autochthonian cult to introduce such things.
 
The Haslanti have invented their Air-Ships, which take advantage of the Hot-Air-Bouyancy schtick to fly around. That's a big step forward, and doesn't Use essence (although in my game I tried encouraging my players to build their own with Demon/Elemental power).


Innovation can happen, but even in real life, the people who need it most cannot develop it as they are simply farmers. The people who can develop the tech have access to better methods that are unusable to the peasantry: artifacts and thaumaturgy.


Ultimately in Exalted, anything is possible, but precisely because of that there is a specific direction of probable, and that is towards more essence, more magic. You can use "Summon Demon" to bind a demon into a drive-shaft forever, and that is likely a common power source should players look into the mechanisms of a factory-cathedral; it's just a straightforward and easy way of achieving the same end as an artifact.


Such innovation isn't restricted entirely to exalts: Look at the rules for enchanting, they allow minor magical items to be made. Things like ever-sharp hoes, and drainage ditches that never wear. Prayers and sacrifice to a local god suffice for helping the crops grow, and good materials or the aid of a minor Earth elemental trump the use of complex smelters when you want to make a decent blade.


In your game, you can overlook this and say that mortals are developing slowly, and creating more and more widely applicable technologies. Ultimately, after centuries of work, the mortals might discover how to use artificial essence accumulators to power devices of their own, mimicing modern technology and ending up with something of a Shadowrun setting after sufficient time.


But, such things take time to spin up. The Haslans took a leap in learning how to fly. Normally such pastoral techlevels take centuries to drag themselves up to a reasonable rate of development.
 
Well, the Long Second Age is set 2000 years in the future of the current setting...


But the basics could be applied to a couple of tech levels--and if you haven't picked up the GURPS series of manual for different tech, you are bad geeks, because those are some of the best references on working through ideas of varying tech schemes--though d20 Future tries darned hard.


Not so great armatures to transfer motive power from a possessing Spirit or Demon.  Essentially Clockwork Golems.  This would advance material science a bit, since you'd need cheap materials to make more mundane vehicles.  While gas zepplins might be out of the question without the right application of science, you could certainly have Air Spirits help big airships along, on the cheap.  


Rather than base you tech on steam, you could use most of the same applications as a pretty direct port with an Essence driven system--instead of pressure driven pistons, you get Essence driven pistons.  


That Mortals could use some spin off tech would be in the development--not so much at the Summoning stage, but certainly in setting up production, and assisting in execution.  Some of that will rub off.  Investing in Thaumaturgy would be good for either Solars or DBs to take off some of the pressure on them during production.


Whether or not magitech, or the Mystech that I use, turns into something else...that's something that Mage can be handy for.  


Take a look at a lot of anime.  Plenty of examples of "High Mystech" in the Final Fantasy series.


Now then, will Mortals develop technologies that allow them to not rely in Exalts?   Probably not until Exalts stop messing in their affairs--enter the Third Age, step through, and make sure that your seats are in the upright position.  Exalts won't stop messing in Mortal affairs until the Gods get tired of messing with Mortal affairs, or they are unable to use their pretty toys anymore--because the Gods are reliant on Mortals for worship, and they aren't going to mess with that.  


Until Mortals have a really good reason to develop alternate methods, they won't.  Cut off from interference with Exalts, Mortals are going to tend towards lives that are brutish and short for a long while, because it takes time to build up a guide book of techniques.  In agriculture, in smithing, in ceramics, in even basic carpentry.  You only build what you need, and if you get an impetus to build more, it's usually because you're in direct competition with someone else and need to have better and more efficient techniques.  Folks don't just invent new goodies without some pressure--be it intellectual rivalry, be it cultural, be it war.  And a small community that is isolated is going to achieve a form of homeostasis pretty soon, and will tend to remain that way until they get a kick in the pants otherwise.  


Now then, Mortals may throw their lot in with Autocthonians when they roll in, and there will be blossoming of an odd mixture of those methods in the interim, and some of which will benifit Mortals, but Mortals are always going to be reliant on the Exalts until the Exalts are taken out of the picture--their methods are too easy, and too readily available.
 
Technology requires energy, in one form or another.  The technology of the Second Age is on par with that of the Reneissance of Earth, with a few notable exceptions dealing with Thaumaturgy.  Using alchemy, one can create metals so pure and fine that they exceed the capabilities of our alloys.  Using alchemy, it is quite possible to create metallurgy capable of duplicating the technology of the early twentieth century.  


Imagine an Exalted version of Babbage's computer.  The metal produced by alchemy is much much better than what Babbage had available, it is equal to the strength of the 5MM after all, so mechanical computers could be smaller and less energy dependent than an equivalent mechanical computer built today.  While it would not be as advanced as our computers, it would be impossible to make mechanical switches that small after all, it could be as good as the computers of the 1980's.  For power, you could use a watermill to provide constant power and clockwheel assembly for stored power.


Using such metals, steam power becomes quite easy.  While gathering enough iron for a railroad would be problematic, it is possible.  The best steam engine design, the sextuple expansion engine, requires .02 cubic feet per hour per kW produced.  A properly designed train, meaning a lot of trial and error, can haul one ton at 72 mph with just 4 kW of energy.  A train that is supposed to haul 1000 tons at 72 mph would then require 80 cubic feet of coal per hour.  Each cubic foot weighs about 50 lbs, so that would be 2 tons of coal an hour.  If 10% of the weight was coal, it would have a comfortable endurance of fifty hours, assuming that it could either refill on water rather frequently or had some sort of recycling mechanism for the steam (they had figured out a rather good one in the 1920's).  Assuming that it will waste one-third of its speed due to frequent stops, it could go 2400 miles in a little over two days without refilling its coalbox, much better than any current form of transportation for the vast majority of the people in Exalted.


Using such methods, one could eventually imagine a civilization much like ours, except with superior metallurgy.  Alchemical experiments could discover electricity, conductive metals and even photovoltic substances, allowing the availability of wind, water and even solar power.  Hypereffecient capacitors and batteries could be created with alchemy, allowing better energy storage than any found in our world.  In time, the world of Exalted could become more technologically advanced than ours, just because they have real monsters to deal with.
 
Perhaps I am wrong here but the halsanti league seems like a candidate to develop something like steampowered technology.
 
I'm not sure the League has the infrastructure to pursue that line of research to its end.


 My personal inclination would be some mortal inventor out of Lookshy; while the Seventh Legion has the First Age toys and the Essence wielders, they may see the benefit in technology independent of Essence--as long as their IO doesn't throw a hissy fit.
 
Safim said:
Perhaps I am wrong here but the halsanti league seems like a candidate to develop something like steampowered technology.
Click to expand...
Agreed, they are seeking a faster means of propulsion and a more effective form of fuel.. a solid-state fuel would be great for them. Unfortunately they don't appear to have coal mines. They could use wood but it's too bulky. So, they use oil instead.


At the moment, they know only about the hot air from the burning oil, and to invent the piston you have to know about the expansion caused by the heat.


It is possible for them to discover this on their own, but more likely is that a Haslanti Thaumaturge will find the answer from a fire-spirit while seeking an alternate fuel. A fire-spirit might be happy to promote more use of fire to power their flying contraptions, and might simply tell him more about the properties of heat.


Needless to say, such a discovery would be important and coveted by the Haslans, likely to become a state secret alongside the construction of the Airships.


It would then take a while for them to actually apply this secret, the expansion of hot air, to a functioning device. So, there is plenty of time for stories involving foreign spies and diplomats attempting to pry into Haslanti activity, and "that military base in the northern wastes of Icehome".


Could be very interesting, and it's a good way to bring such tech into your game. They have a fuel, they have a mechanism, and they have the resources and the backing to build a prototype within a year or two. However, the Haslanti are unlikely to go mad with the idea for a while; after the prototype, though, the prospect of swift travel by airboat and improved lift capacity will prompt them to make more. Even gliders might benefit; when you stick a propeller on the back and a small fuel tank, you have a fast short range vehicle that can be easily constructed and maintained, and it would heavily stack the odds in their favour even in Air-to-air battles.


What happens when other nations get wind of these developments? Do they react, knee-jerk, with fear? Or do they attempt to steal the secrets to bootstrap their own steampowered industry? Or simply foster closer relations with this up-and-coming nation?
 
Um...odd point.  


Where's the coal coming from?  Or the oil for that matter?


The Creation isn't millions of years old.  There hasn't been time for coal to form--peat certainly, but not coal.  Or petroleum of any sort for that matter.


So what oil are they burning.  


This is exactly the problem with trying to evolve mundane technologies in this setting--things aren't quite the same.  Kind of like the whole flat Creation thing.  Or borders on the Creation.  Or that dinosaurs still walk the Creation--and sometimes take people off to their nests to sacrifice them to their Sun God and make tents from their skins.


While you can, and should, adapt some basics--folks in this setting are still trying to get a handle on crossbows.  Don't assume straight ports.  Mix and match a bit.  Steam power?  Certainly a decent idea, but why use oil?  There are plenty of Fire Elementals who could be induced to stick around a boiler with gifts and a wee bit of appreciation, and perhaps some fragrent woods for treats.  Why rely on propellors when Air Elementals can push the sails easily enough?  Take a look at the basics, and then try to figure out an off kilter approach that a society that has access to magic could perform.  


Straight tech ports?  Not thematic, and borrrring.  Don't be boring.  You want to develop neat technolgies in the boonies, go play Time Lords...
 
Coal had already been mentioned in a few of the novels and I believe they have mentioned it in the Nexus section of Scavenger Sons.  If you have coal, it sort of fits that you would have oil and natural gas.


We don't know if the process of making Creation would have created coal, oil, etc.  Creation has gems after all, and gems require geological processes that take millions of years.  They have marble, a metamorpic rock, that is limestone that has been left to 'cook' for tens of millions of years.  


And who says that Creation isn't millions or even billions of years old.  The oldest dates that we have deal with the Jadeborn and the departure of Autochton.  The Primordial were immortal, after all, so they could have been playing on Creation for hundreds of millions of years before Autochthon and Gaia helped the Gods rebel.
 
I would think that Creation was brought into being coal and so on ready-made. Or, if you want a different view, you could say that everything in Creation is made by Wyld shaped by people thinking it should be that shape, so things like coal and gems exist because people believe they exist.
 
Stillborn said:
Again, I'll mention that these kinds of innovations are inspired by/born from Autochthon. He is almost literally the very concept embodied. As he has left the world, so has the potential for Creation to acheive these ends.
-S
Click to expand...
In the oWoD Autochthon reappears, and soon afterwards the industrial revolution is off and chugging away.
 
In the oWoD Autochthon reappears' date=' and soon afterwards the industrial revolution is off and chugging away.[/quote']
There you go. I guess I wasn't talking out of my ass ;)


-S
Click to expand...
 
All the points are logical enough, but could anything be actually completed in the area of scientific innovation WITHOUT Autocthon;s intyervention? The way I see it, Creation is fuckeds whether he comes back or not. I mean, he comes up, all hell breaks loose. He stays away and the world is left in the hands of some power-mad debased lunatics.


What about Lookshy? Could it actuallay (even under the guidance of a celestial exalted) advance its technology beyond its border, to form a technological allaince in the Scavenger Lands?
 
All the points are logical enough, but could anything be actually completed in the area of scientific innovation WITHOUT Autocthon;s intyervention? The way I see it, Creation is fuckeds whether he comes back or not. I mean, he comes up, all hell breaks loose. He stays away and the world is left in the hands of some power-mad debased lunatics.
What about Lookshy? Could it actuallay (even under the guidance of a celestial exalted) advance its technology beyond its border, to form a technological allaince in the Scavenger Lands?
Click to expand...
I think lookshy is damn advanced already and if people would be willing to pool ressources with them they could kick some major ass, it is just not in the nature of the scavenger lands to do so
 
Where's the coal coming from?  Or the oil for that matter?
The Creation isn't millions of years old.  There hasn't been time for coal to form--peat certainly, but not coal.  Or petroleum of any sort for that matter.


So what oil are they burning.  
Click to expand...
"What is that stuff?"  "Black blood of the earth!"  "You mean oil?"  "I mean black blood of the earth!"


Don't make the mistake of assuming that because 'oil' and 'coal' are supposed to take millions of years to form on Earth, that they will necessarily be created by the same processes in Creation.  Things can (and should!) be very different.
 
Agreed, I mean hell, they have diamonds and all other precious jewels, why not some black charred rock. Oil...just screams Eclipse oil barons.
 
Creation also has gold and other heavier metals that weren't forged in the center of a star. You could go on and on...


-S
 
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