[Exalted 1st Ed] Consequences of altering dice rolling

[Mirrorblade]

I've been "lurking" around from time to time looking for answers, now I start to ask questions on what I couldn't solve myself.


Our storyteller, for his own reasons , decided to alter the dice system of our starting Solar-Alchemical 1st ed campaign, by making each "1" rolled "cancel" one success from the overall roll.


This rule applies to opponents as well, but considering that 6 siaka nearly killed 75% of our party (of 3) in our first fight, resulting effectively more dangerous than the second circle demon we had to "remove"... I've doubts on the fairness/effectiveness of this solution.


I get concerned as it seems, this way,  that a large dice pools incurs higher risks of rolling "worse" or directly botch even on simple tasks, rather than accomplishing better results.


From direct experience: we had very few "epic" rolls and a lot of crappy results or full fledged botches...


So, what I'd like to know is if this houserule compromises playability althogether, simply "resizes" our characters "exaltedness" a bit too much, or messes up the system.

 

[wordman]

Roll 1000 dice. With fair dice, expect that each number comes up exactly 10% of the time, 100 times for each number. In standard exalted, you get:


600 rolls from 1-6 = 0 successes


300 rolls from 7-9 = 300 successes


100 rolls of 10 = 2 * 100 = 200 successes


So, with 1000 dice, you get 500 successes, or 0.5 per die.


In the system you describe (which is used in other White Wolf games), it looks like this:


100 rolls of 1 = -100 successes


500 rolls from 2-6 = 0 successes


300 rolls from 7-9 = 300 successes


100 rolls of 10 = 2 * 100 = 200 successes


So, with 1000 dice, you get 400 successes, or 0.4 per die. This is 10% reduction in effectiveness. Note that this exact same result could be achieved just by using standard Exalted rules, but setting the target number for success to 8 instead of 7. You could also do it by ignoring the rule of 10, and give only one success on 10s.


Essentially, your ST is making the game more gritty, less heroic. Exalted was designed to be the opposite, which is why White Wolf uses that mechanic in other games, but removed it from Exalted. If a gritty game is what your ST actually wants, then the mechanic is doing his job. If it isn't, then he doesn't know what he is doing.


If your house rule was used in 2E, it would mean that Second Excellency would always be a better choice than first.

 

[cyl]

Definitely, because the greater the dicepool is, and you all  know with exalted a 20 dicepool is not very rare, the greater the chances you fail or botch are.


I had an experience with this houserule in Owod vampire for like 2 years, I had a Nosferatu with a dicepool of 9 in Dex+Stealth, I recorded like 35 botches over the two years and my average success rate was 2...


This houserule sucks, is ultimately frustrating, and is clearly not fitted for an epic game like exalted.

 

[Moonsilver]

I have to agree with the first two posters.


Did he intend for it to be "gritty"? I tweak the rules, but I allways have a reason, what was the purpose of this?

 

[cyl]

Essentially, your ST is making the game more gritty, less heroic. Exalted was designed to be the opposite, which is why White Wolf uses that mechanic in other games, but removed it from Exalted. If a gritty game is what your ST actually wants, then the mechanic is doing his job. If it isn't, then he doesn't know what he is doing.

Yeah, don't forget the fact that when there are no more success, and there are still some 1s, you botched...
Thing is, this house roule clearly augments the probability of botch, and that is NOT epic.

 

[wordman]

Definitely, because the greater the dicepool is, and you all  know with exalted a 20 dicepool is not very rare, the greater the chances you fail or botch are.

I don't believe that is true. Each die you add has a 50% chance of adding a success on average, but only a 10% chance of taking one away. The chance of rolling a failure with 20 dice is nearly non-existent.


Clearly the odds of both failure and botch are a bit higher, but the rule isn't any different than just counting 10s as one success instead of two. In other words, it's the same odds as "botching" a damage roll (not that you can actually botch damage rolls).

 

[Mirrorblade]

Hmm... the feel of this campaign so far isn't very "exalted".


Considering that usually I have quite mixed luck with dices, this way the sistem becomes for me,  no better, if not more frustrating, than D20, with a lot of messed up actions due to this houserule..


The encounter with the siaka resulted in fact far more dangerous than that with the demon of the second circle we were hunting, considering that they were no more than "errant monsters" added to the fray by a mistake from one of the other players, that used its own blood to lure the demon...


The siaka nearly killed the party in a fight lasted 5 turns, resisting the dawns' anima power, ignoring the damaging effect of my character's beamklaves (only natural armour and stamina made the main effect of those weapons worthless) while the demon went down with a single blow from said solar...


So far not a pretty picture...

 

[Flagg]

Is this the ST's first time running Exalted?

 

[Mirrorblade]

3rd time... after two failures...


and after a "nice" long chat involving many stabbing and cutting implements , he says that his house rule was intended to make the characters more "fallible", otherwise, they would be nearly unstoppable.


As an alternative, he blackmailed us with combat-optimized monster opponents of doom ® and so on... (lack of ideas?!)


I'm not sold his way of doing things, but this is what there is.


The problem it's the other two players, they are fine with this rule because they played "ad nauseam" WoD, and I doubt they grasp exalted

 

[magnificentmomo]

If all goes to hell in a hand basket offer to ST the next game yourself.

 

[Mirrorblade]

Lack of time and, mainly, practice... I like roleplaying but i'm out of my league as a storyteller

 

[cyl]

Make your st log in the ECR, we will explain him how epic Exalted can be  :lol:


I know exactly how you and  the other guys feel, because I had the same problem; spent 2 years with a OWoD old fashioned ST in a shitty world where 3 Potens 2 Celerity 9th gen Brujahs get kicked by the local baker (dark ages- I am not kidding I almost left the table, and I was not even the PC at this time)...


When a friend of mine had the ultimate idea of buying me exalted for my birthday, it took quite a while for the two guys I played oWoD with to play epic, because they've been twisted by too many years of playing in a shitty world.


They didn't dare to fight because they were scared to get beaten, and they didn't grasp their full potential as solar, as they unconsciously avoided being heroic at every possible turn.


I talked them out of it by explaining simply "this is not Vampire, this is not OWoD, this is exalted, you are expected to become one of the most powerful, influential, well geared, sexiest motherfuckers on the face of this world and you're in the top 5 of the food chain... now exalt the fuck up !"  :lol:


Two sessions after, they finally react, and they are now two of my best players.


As for the OWoD ST, I tried to make him play with the two others guys, but he started to go like "hmmm, I don't want to fight, in fact my pc will not know how to fight"... I said "dude, be careful, this is a very violent universe, it's okay you don't know how to fight, but you gotta know how to dodge/run fast/disappear/resist in order to survive through a fight..." he said "no, I will not play a pc based on combat", I showed him the box "this is a violent world... be prepared to survive" but he insisted... and I left him out of my table.


I recommend you have a little chat with your gaming group, and especially the ST... he doesn't seem to grasp the richness of exalted.

 

[Flagg]

It sounds like his problem is that he feels the ST/GM of a game must fill an adversarial role toward the players.

 

[cyl]

It sounds like his problem is that he feels the ST/GM of a game must fill an adversarial role toward the players.

Well at some point a ST does, even in Exalted, but the thing is that the players always prevail over the "world" and the ST.
Exalts change Creation, and in a game they must do so and act accordingly.


But if the ST's stuck in some "oh no they can't do that, it would be too much for them to succeed in doing that, they just can't" complex... well, the hell with the game  :?

 

[Chaka]

3rd time... after two failures...
and after a "nice" long chat involving many stabbing and cutting implements , he says that his house rule was intended to make the characters more "fallible", otherwise, they would be nearly unstoppable.

But... but... that's the point...


Also, I'm paraphrasing cyl for my sig. that's a great quote.

 

[cyl]

Thanks  :lol:


I was really "proud" of that one, and was very angry at the time to see how repressed they were and it just came out of me...


We often laugh about a few good quotes we had with exalted, and while this one's not the funniest (happened like 3 years ago), it had the expected impact on them.

 

[Mirrorblade]

the problem with my storyteller is that his' mind it's made on this point and that it's my loss, not the rest of the group's if I leave the campaign...

 

[cyl]

Then let's wait some time to see how people react to this thread, and then show him.


I think there are actually lots of good players and STs around here, and clever people, if we all agree on the "this houserule sucks !" statement, maybe they will open up their minds...


Else, you're going to be very frustrated if you stick with this group.

 

[Mirrorblade]

Who'll live will see

 

[cyl]

For what it's worth, I feel your pain man :wink:


Just try to talk'em out of it, sometimes communication is the best way to improve a situation, and since you're dealing with RPG gamers, I'd assume they have some small kind of open mind.  

 

[Flagg]

the problem with my storyteller is that his' mind it's made on this point and that it's my loss, not the rest of the group's if I leave the campaign...

Are you the only one bothered by the rule? If nobody else likes it, I don't see the point in any of you continuing the game. It's supposed to be fun.

 

[cyl]

The problem it's the other two players, they are fine with this rule because they played "ad nauseam" WoD, and I doubt they grasp exalted Sad

Actually you better make them come here first. they can't have a problem with something they don't percieve being a problem... but if an third party tells them there is a problem... maybe they'll begin to wonder...


Well unless they are autistic about opening their mind to a new (far much better and interesting) kind of gaming...

 

[wordman]

What games has your ST run before? One of the weird things about Exalted is that much of the "toolbox" that you develop preventing other games from turning into clusterfucks are completely useless -- and even harmful -- for running Exalted. As an example, GMs for most games make an effort to prevent the players from gathering vast riches to quickly, as it can really destroy the game. In Exalted, wealth really doesn't matter that much, so this instinct hurts the game instead of saves it.

D&D: "Okay, you enter the tavern and head to the bar. As you're sipping some ale, you overhear some rough looking half-orcs talking dirty to the daughter of the guy in charge of the caravan you're guarding. What do you do?"
Exalted: "Okay, you enter the city and kill off the current ruler and set yourselves up as the overlords. As you're setting up court, your Night Caste reads the lips of a messenger a mile away and figures out that one of the Dragon-Blooded viziers is plotting with a demon lord of the Second Circle to eat the souls of the first born children of all people in your city and then use the ritual's power to make a ten story First Age warmachine that shoots laserbeams from its eyes. Also, there are ninjas. What do you do?"

 

[Requiem of Forgotten Lore]

...now exalt the fuck up !"

I love that!
I would agree with census of the people in this topic.  My first Exalted game had this rule.  I found that it was better to be unskilled or barely skilled in something than to have learned it epically and watch the 1's eat up my successes, making my 5 dexterity and 4 dodge look like my character was an old, crippled, blind man with a walker in a fight.


However as a ST when I make NPC's that are going to be around for a bit, I want to give then charms (obviously) and I like to roll the characters stats for that charm for S&Gs.  I noticed that a couple times that I rolled a 10 or two with maybe one or two normal successes and about two to thee 1's.  This got me thinking, "What if you're botches out number your successes or 'glorious successes?'"


And I very much agree with cyl; bring your people here to get a 3rd party opinion otherwise it might look like complaining and if they hear it in that light they (probably) won't listen.

 

[Mirrorblade]

I'll try to drag them all here, but considering how mule headed my ST has been on this issue, i doubt anything good would come out of this.


The other two female players know him from a lot more time and have had much more roleplaying experience than myself, and, unfortunately,  don't find the rule a nuisance, coming out from WoD and a VERY abusive D&D campaign (no elves, no dwarves, no magic items until DM's call, 12 NPC's travelling with the 2 players...) DMd by one of them...


So far, my impression is that, apart from having little time to prepare each session, our ST lacks ideas on how to challenge our pg's without resorting to the "monster of the week" or neuthering our capabilities.


Also, I'm so vocal about this house rule about 1s because I fell I've been messed up the most by it in play, and I have a tendency to horrible luck with dices...


In a pair of hours we are going to start this week's game, stay tuned for the aftermath... if there are survivors left