<Exalt> Hero Style Form 2! or 3?

[The Scorp]

Well this is mainly for Solar Hero Style, but I was pondering.  We all know you can add charms to the style if you are a Solar because its your natural Style.  After making such charms, I was wondering if anyone has thought of making another FORM charm.  My thinking is that if you keep on making new charms for the style, one more powerful than the next, wouldnt the Form charm become obsolete?  Wouldnt you want a Form charm to match the awesome power of essence 6-9 level charms?


Heh, now all I can think of is the different levels of Super Saiyan.  


"Heh, you're good.  Strong even.  But Im better and you ain't seen nothing yet.  Solar Hero Form 3!!!!!AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!"


Thoughts?

 

[YogoIshida]

While I do agree that the form charms in them selves are a bit light, when they are used in conjunction with the rest of their tree they become truely killer. Loves me, my Snake Form.


You must have noticed that they typically are the center piece to the form's tree. The lesser charms show a semi-logical progression to the form and the greater charms show a progression from the logic of the form. There is a reason that most styles share a similar name with the form that inhabits their core. Creating a new form literally is about creating a new style. So while I will agree that a style that had a higher essence level than 3 for its form would be COOL, they typically would be regarded as Sidereal level martial arts i.e. the type one uses when needing to slay a medium sized city.


BTW If your Solar is in the greater than 5 Essence level (more than a hundred years since his/her exaltation) I think he/she will have found some thing better than pounding his enemy with fists. Like super mind control, or solar circle spells.


Yogo Ishida

 

[memesis]

I don't see why not.  Personally, I'd rather have Charms that are permanent enhancements to the stock Form-type Charm, though.  This preserves the one-Form-per-style theme that's dominant in martial arts (Prismatic Arrangement of Creation excepting, but it defines itself as special) and maintains the general symmetry of three followup Charms from the Form (since a permanent doesn't require you to follow it with anything).


Example:


Epic Solar Stance (permanent, Martial Arts 5, Essence 5, prerequisites TBD)


While Solar Hero Form is active, the character adds her Essence to her Strength for all purposes.  This counts as a Charm for purposes of dice pool limits.  She also halves the raw damage dice of any attack, but only for the purposes of knockback, knockdown, or other incidental effects of damage (but not for calculating the actual damage of an attack).


Solar heroes are larger-than-life beings, driven to perform mighty works and possessing a burning spirit of passion.  The character picks any two of her Virtues at the time this Charm is purchased.  She may increase those Virtues to 6 with the expenditure of XP.

 

[Quchu]

I was thinking that, if there will be multiple Solar Hero Form Charms, they would be more like multiple Martial Arts styles that share the pre-Form Charms. There would be this canon thermobaric Solar fist path, throw people helluva far path, godly berzerk path and so on. I would think that there are more ways to be bluntly heroic than punching things real hard.


Or, perhaps, there'll be Charms that upgrade the Solar Hero Form around Essence 5 or 6, and then again at 8 or 9? While I like the idea of multi-Form styles, this might work better. :|


Hmm. I wonder how higher Form Charms can make some Sidereal say "Chejop Kejak, what does the scouter say about the Solar's damage pool?!"

 

[Knight_of_Chaos]

BTW If your Solar is in the greater than 5 Essence level (more than a hundred years since his/her exaltation) I think he/she will have found some thing better than pounding his enemy with fists. Like super mind control, or solar circle spells.

I am in complete disagreement with that.  There will always be a use for pounding things with your fists.  I'd love to have a Charm that lets you punch a city wall and watch the whole place fall down!  Or one that'll let you roundhouse kick a whole army!


On a more serious note, I think this upgrading the Form Charm idea is inspired.  Props to The Scorp and memesis for the ideas.

 

[Sherwood]

Absolutely.  I'd like it at the essence 6 level, and again at the essence 9 level.  Can you imagine a essence 9 form charm?  Holy batshit.  That would be some major ass kicking.

 

[Solfi]

... well, Scroll of the Monk's chapter on Sidereal Martial Arts certainly set the bar. Scene-length Charms aplenty, multiple form-type Charms. Form Charms that allowed free usage of (some of the) previous Charms in the tree...

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

All things which were already included in the previous Sidereal Martial arts found in the 1E Sidereal book. Prismatic Arrangement of Creation was multi-form in 1 E too, Charcoal March of Spiders and Four Magical Materials Form both allowed free use of lower charms, and scene long charms aren't that uncommon in martial arts as a whole.

 

[YogoIshida]

Ok, this is me backpedaling a little, I'll admit it. For Solar Hero (or any of the other Hero style) I would agree that it is possible to make a new higher level Form Charm. This is due in part to the organic nature of the Hero styles. However I would posit that these new forms would not so much be viewed as new canonical additions to the style but as individual divergent additions. That is to say there will not be a universally accepted 2nd Solar Hero Form, but instead there would be a multitude of secondary forms distinct to themselves representing their creators. This is not to say that there can't be schools that teach these secondary forms as the "only" acceptable secondary form, and then you can include the joys of school rivalries.


However for the nonHero Styles, they are fixed or as the book put it complete (page 240), so I would still argue against creating a secondary form for them. If you want a 7 essence Snake Form you will have to create an entirely new style for it to reside within, but could have Essence Venom Strike as a requisite.


My thoughts on the matter


Y I

 

[The Scorp]

Well, I was only speaking of the <Exalt> Hero Styles in particular.  


Just a note: I just noticed that Silver-Voiced Nightingale Style actually supports Two Form Charms within its style and its not Sidereal MA.  Interesting.  


So yeah, I can see that there might be many Form charms that would pop up as the style grew, each pertaining to different aspects of fighting (Grapple Form, Striking Form, Improvised Weapon Form, Break Stuff Form).  But just like what Sherwood said....I think I would like see a Essence 9 Form Charm.   Possibly something that incorporates lowering speed, getting rid of onslaught and multiple action DV penalties, decreasing opponents pools, increasing raw power and having perfect defense and offense and auto suxx that do agg, having the holy effect...and lets throw in teleportation and kamehamessence waves for fun.  


Silly, I know, but with the power of continuing on with a MA style, the possibilites are endless, especially tacking on Permanents like what Memesis said.  


Geeze.  <Exalt> Hero Style is possibly hands down the BEST MA the game has to offer.

 

[The Scorp]

You know what....screw all those people that say.."Sidereal MA is the best and Solars should be the ones that have it."  Pah-tooie to that I tell you.  Solar Hero Style technically can just MIMIC most of the styles out there, just having a SHS twist to it.   Who says that you can't just make up Solar Venom Strike! or Solar -Stepping Motion (Teleportation in daylight), or Angry Solar Rapid Style! or hell, Unconquered Solar Mastery (Grandmother Spider Mastery).  They can even surpass the powerful Sidereal MA when they get to Essence 8-10.  So those that say Solars are not the most powerful at MA are just wrong. And its all because of Solars having the ability to continue making new MA charms in SHS.  Craziness.  Just CRAZINESS!

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

I was thinking that, if there will be multiple Solar Hero Form Charms, they would be more like multiple Martial Arts styles that share the pre-Form Charms. There would be this canon thermobaric Solar fist path, throw people helluva far path, godly berzerk path and so on. I would think that there are more ways to be bluntly heroic than punching things real hard.
Or, perhaps, there'll be Charms that upgrade the Solar Hero Form around Essence 5 or 6, and then again at 8 or 9? While I like the idea of multi-Form styles, this might work better. :|


Hmm. I wonder how higher Form Charms can make some Sidereal say "Chejop Kejak, what does the scouter say about the Solar's damage pool?!"

Perhaps...NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAND!?

 

[Knight_of_Chaos]

Who says that you can't just make up Solar Venom Strike!

I think if I was your ST, I'd say it.  YCMV, but in my mind all MA styles each have a certain "theme" that they all follow.  Solar Hero's seems to be "Being an Unbelievably Badass Brawler," which encompasses a lot of things, but venom punches or teleportation are just not a part of that.


That's not to say that I think SHS can't surpass SMA.  It's just that instead of having a Charm that turns someone into a chicken, you have one which lets you punch someone so hard they die. Period.  Or one that lets you punch an army rather than a person.

 

[Quchu]

Perhaps...NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAND!?

I would have thought that a Solar Essence 9 Form Charm would provide damage over that amount, actually.


And saturate the Solar's hair with golden Essence, too. And make it all stiff with power. And make the chronicle never end.

 

[Ker'ion]

DBZ anyone?

 

[The Scorp]

I think if I was your ST, I'd say it.  YCMV, but in my mind all MA styles each have a certain "theme" that they all follow.  Solar Hero's seems to be "Being an Unbelievably Badass Brawler," which encompasses a lot of things, but venom punches or teleportation are just not a part of that.

And hitting someone with agg damage punch doesn't say "Unbelievably Badass Brawler"?


Also, Goku is Unbelievably Badass and he does everything that a Badass Brawling Solar should do.  


Just standing there doesn't make you badass (though at times it can). Moving smoothly or quickly, dodging or blocking all punches, pulling off insane combos,...basically doing things that are just plain cool is badass.  Hardly anything is outside the theme of Solar Hero Style when it comes to coolness and badassery.


Its all about the fight, no matter how you cut it.  Solar Hero Style is about the theme of being a Solar, emulating and imitating the POWER of the heroes of the dawn.  Solars are capable of almost anything as they are the top of the crust.  They are capable of the Extraordinary and it says that the charms in the book are ordinary.  Have you SEEN the charms!?  There are no where near ordinary and I can DEFINATELY imagine that the later charms are only limited by the power of your imagination.

 

[Knight_of_Chaos]

I don't have a problem with agg punches in SHS.  I guess I wasn't thinking of the mechanics of the Charms.  Just throw in some righteous sun-theme and boom, agg punches.


I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around adding something like teleportation to SHS.  That should really be the province of Lore or something similar.  (Unless we're talking some kind of Bleach-like "flash step."  I could see that working in SHS.)  I guess I don't really buy into the "MA as overarching Ability" BS that Scroll of the Monk tries to sell.  If you can throw any other natural Charm into your <exalt> Hero Style, then why have any other Ability?


The only reason I think MA gets away with it is because of the way the Charm trees are set up.  You can't add to (most of) the Charm trees.  The Charms before the Form have traditionally been underpowered.  Most MA Charms aren't quite as mechanically effective as their other Ability counterparts.  All the Charms in a tree are thematically similar.  (You won't have fireball shooting in a tree about being a cow.)


I see MA as a way to take a theme and make a martial application of that theme.


Then again, YCMV.  (I should really put that in my sig...)


I guess it seems we're not drawing upon the same source material here.  DBZ is rarely found in my Exalted inspiration, whereas Bleach, Twelve Kingdoms and Tenjou Tenge are all over the place.  When I think about it, looking at DBZ, you have a bunch of guys who aren't really good at anything BUT the Martial Arts Ability.  It would make sense that anyone drawing a lot from that show for their character inspiration would tend to want to lump a lot of things into MA.


I tend towards the school of thought that a sifu who wants to teach someone to teleport would teach their student about the nature of Creation  and have them practice moving things outside of it (i.e. raise your Lore and buy Flagg's Elsewhere tree).

 

[Solfi]

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around adding something like teleportation to SHS.  That should really be the province of Lore or something similar.  (Unless we're talking some kind of Bleach-like "flash step."  I could see that working in SHS.)  I guess I don't really buy into the "MA as overarching Ability" BS that Scroll of the Monk tries to sell.  If you can throw any other natural Charm into your <exalt> Hero Style' date=' then why have any other Ability?[/quote']
... Thus the point of prerequisite dots in other Abilities (present in Scroll of the Monk, though admittely, in my opinion, maybe a bit understated).

 

[memesis]

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around adding something like teleportation to SHS.  That should really be the province of Lore or something similar.

"Teleportation" can mean a lot of things.  I would start by thinking about the game mechanic I want and look at how themely it would be for inclusion.  For example, if I really wanted to get around terrain and barriers, I might create this sort of Charm:


Unstoppable Rhinocerous Charge


The Solar Hero lets nothing stand in the way of his righteous fury, even the elements themselves.  He may plow his way through walls, trees, stone, even the earth itself if it obstructs him.


The Solar may Move, Dash, or Jump through solid, inanimate obstacles, reflexively doing damage to them.  If he does a sufficient amount of breaking damage, the obstacle automatically admits him through without penalty.  Otherwise, his movement action stops at the obstacle.  He may also ignore cover when making Martial Arts attacks if he can break through the cover.


Example:  Ryushi is giving chase to a bandit who hops nimbly onto the top of a maze of alleyway walls.  Rather than following, the warrior simply breaks through the flimsy wooden walls, not slowed a whit as he charges after his quarry.

 

[Knight_of_Chaos]

"Teleportation" can mean a lot of things.
...

You're right, and that Charm write-up that you just gave as an example is definitely something that I'd consider within the realm of SHS.  


And again, the "Flash Step" type action would possibly fall under there... But I'd probably be happier to see it as an Athletics Charm. (Mechanics-wise, it's really just a combination of Foe-Vaulting and Monkey Leap.)


But a quick google search has confirmed that DBZ-type teleporting is the "instantaneous, anywhere in the universe" variety, much like Flagg's Hundred League Stride Prana.  That'd be a lot harder to sell me on as part of SHS.  I'm not saying it can't be done under any circumstances, but you'd have your work cut out for you.


Really, there are only two reasons that I see for non-beat you up type Charms in MA:  


1) To give a themed spin on some action normally under the purview of another Ability.


2) To take up space in the MA Charm trees and bring them to near the 10-per style average.


I wanted to put in "3) To ensure a basic level of competency at emulating your theme." but that could probably be solved by giving MA Charms prerequisite Charms from other Abilities... If there's a precedent for that.  And I'm not sure that there is, but I don't see a problem with it.


And going back to 1), this is fine IMO, as long as it's either harder to get there prereqs-wise or it doesn't work as well as a Charm of its type under the regular Ability.  I think MA stuff that emulates other Abilities should be a "jack of all trades but not quite as efficient" kind of deal.  Especially when compared to Solar Charms, as Celestial MA is really a step below them.


References: List of Dragon Ball special abilities, Shunkan IdÅ

 

[The Scorp]

Unstoppable Rhinocerous Charge

IM UNSTOPPABLE!  IM DA JUGGERNAUT B***H!!!

 

[Ker'ion]

You forgot your apostrophe there, Mr. Unstoppable.

 

[The Scorp]

I dont speech english good!  


Heh, seriously, my hands just don't register the apostrophe when I type.  Don't know why.  I have to actively think about adding it in.

 

[The Scorp]

Well I wouldnt necessarily use the teleportation like that per se, but I would make so that you could escape grapples, like the cartoon where the Water aspected Dragon Blooded melted out of his opponents arms...but it wouldnt be melting.  It would be instant flash.  Or it would be to teleport behind his opponent.  That would be about it.  Nothing major like teleporting across Creation.

 

[memesis]

I'm not sure if this has occurred to anyone else, but...


... perhaps the wrong approach is "how does X power from Japanese anime Y fit into Solar Hero style or another convenient style of my choice".  Perhaps you should think about "Shinigami Hero Style" or "Saiyan Style". Then work out how it functions in your game.


Terrestrial Exaltation can happen anywhere, perhaps even in the Shadowlands.  Has anyone ever considered an Outcaste Terrestrial Exalting in a Deathlord's domain?  For example, consider the Exalted of Thorns (however many there were).  If some didn't escape, then their children have the potential and can pass it on to others.  Rather than destroying them, a handful of Abyssals recruit and train them into an enforcement squad for the Underworld.  This might be seen as heretical by some, but then the Deathlords have never been a model for cooperation.


The Lunars have come to the point where breeding beastmen is useful, but they need more.  The No Moons craft powerful spells to merge the primal power of southeastern simians with the cunning of man, imbuing them with Lunar Essence to permit a limited form of shapeshifting.  These amazing, powerful beast-men are on par with god-blooded and learn to balance their primal nature and humanitas through a new martial arts form.


Perhaps your characters are involved in the training of these new forces.  Perhaps they steal the secrets of their styles and use them for their own ends.