Elemental Dragons, where?

[Sherwood]

I think I just fell in love with you.  I have GOT to find a way to pull this off with my players.

 

[Upaatk]

Wow, consider that totally stolen once Lunars 2e comes out.  I'm personally going to fit in Luna fixing the five castes again as part of her efforts to fix creation, but the overarcing plot is too beautiful to not use.  Don't hesitate to feed us more!

 

[RainOfSteel]

Thank you!


I'm working on a revision for posting as an article.

 

[Solfi]

Re: Luna Takes Command


This is a frickin' sweet idea. One small thing:

Luna asks Gaia how the Curse can be undone or removed, but "he" (the fellow in the white jacket, p.4 GoD)

You are referring to Gaia as the "he"? As far as I have had it understood (and prefer it), *Luna* is the fellow in the white jacket, while Gaia is the fertile looking woman. Any particular reason you'd like it that way?

 

[RainOfSteel]

Re: Luna Takes Command

This is a frickin' sweet idea. One small thing:

Thanks!

Luna asks Gaia how the Curse can be undone or removed, but "he" (the fellow in the white jacket, p.4 GoD)

You are referring to Gaia as the "he"? As far as I have had it understood (and prefer it), *Luna* is the fellow in the white jacket, while Gaia is the fertile looking woman. Any particular reason you'd like it that way?

In the revision/expansion that I am about 1/2 done with, the beginning now says:

Author's Note:


This article assumes for the sake of convenience in writing, that in the artwork on page four of the Games of Divinity, the fellow in the white jacket is one of Gaia's component souls, Luna's lover for countless millennia.  Gaia is seated in Luna's lap.


It is just as easy to assume this fellow is Luna appearing as a man, and that he is seated in Gaia's lap (who is appearing as a woman), but as I mentioned above, I am using the other convention.

If you are asking why?  Luna has always been referred to as her/she (or goddess) as far as I know (I may be letting old WoD knowledge accidentally seep into things here).


Prior to seeing GoD (which I only picked up recently), I had always assumed it was a women/women relationship of the divine type where sex and family relationships are completely irrelevant.


I wondered about which one was which (since the others were obvious), and eventually just settled on the "guy" being a component soul of Gaia.  Sort of a, "Well, the Primordials are more likely to appear as anything at all than an Incarna," type of thing.  After all, we don't often hear of the US or the Maidens appearing as the opposite sex (although they undoubtedly have the power to do so), so I assumed that in general, Luna will appear as female.


In the actual use of this campaign idea, it is a simple matter to switch their genders to one's personal preference.

 

[Thorn Darkblade]

Re: Luna Takes Command

so I assumed that in general, Luna will appear as female.

To assume anything about a god/goddess of trickery and illusion is like saying the Wyld ALWAYS has purple skies. You just don't do it. Gaia has also been referred to in the feminine pronoun more often than the masculine (in fact, this is the first time I've heard Gaia referred to as a "he"), so I'm not getting the logic here...

 

[Jukashi]

Re: Luna Takes Command

If you are asking why?  Luna has always been referred to as her/she (or goddess) as far as I know (I may be letting old WoD knowledge accidentally seep into things here).

Actually, Luna has constantly been referred to as being capable of being both male and female in Exalted. In Lunars especially, it is noted that Luna often appears as an effeminate man; in fact, in one of the Chapter headings, it tells the tale of a Lunar Exaltation where Luna is a guy; there's even a picture right across from it, in which she is pictured as male.


Luna is referred to as female because s/he's always feminine, at least, but it is noted that Luna appears to every Lunar in a different way, including female, male, and neither. S/he is without limit in form and appearance, as befits the Trickster God/dess of Creation.

 

[Flagg]

Furthermore, your theory of any one of those characters being a component soul of Gaia is entirely non-canonical, and thus wouldn't be reflected in canon art.

 

[Sherwood]

Dont forget that the Lunars themselves can change gender at will with the right charms.  Why would they be able to do something that their patron God couldn't do?

 

[Solfi]

Re: Luna Takes Command

If you are asking why?  Luna has always been referred to as her/she (or goddess) as far as I know (I may be letting old WoD knowledge accidentally seep into things here).

As previous posters have noted, Luna has been referred to as a he on numerous occasions (and his/her/it's fluid nature has been highlighted moreso than any of the other deities. And rightly so, in my opinion). So yes, I think your oWoD sensibilities are seeping through here .

Dont forget that the Lunars themselves can change gender at will with the right charms.  Why would they be able to do something that their patron God couldn't do?

As I understand it, RainOfSteel is not actually saying Luna cannot shapeshift but that in that particular picture, the male is *Gaia* and not Luna. And we (or at least I am) are saying that it makes more sense that the male is Luna. Also, his appearance is blatantly "Luna:esque". He is effeminacy, his coloring, the way he's sitting in her lap, a mocking smile on his lips.


... not much is said of Gaias appearance anywhere, but it's easy for one to ascribe her the attributes of "the Earth mother", which the woman certainly fulfills.

 

[wordman]

Re: Luna Takes Command

As far as I have had it understood (and prefer it), *Luna* is the fellow in the white jacket, while Gaia is the fertile looking woman.

That's correct, at least according to this FAQ:

-Who's who in the Celestial Gods group shot in Games of Divinity?
According to Chris Stevens, who drew the picture in question:


"Starting at the upper left and going clock-wise.


Top left is the Maiden of Serenity.


Next to her is the Maiden of Battles.


Then the Maiden of Endings.


Then the Maiden of Secrets.


Then the Maiden of Journeys.


Then the Unconquered Sun.


Yes, that is Luna sitting on Gaia's lap.


They have a strange relationship."

I also never noticed that, in that picture, the UC has four arms.


To change gears away from the totally cool plot idea, this comment...

I also think that one of her component souls is Luna's lover.

...got me thinking that some other Gaian souls are the archetypal babe/mother/crone triplets (the babe, obviously, being Luna's squeeze).


Also, Borgstrom responds to the suggestion that Luna, not the Elemental Dragon of Earth, is Gaia's fetich.


Edit: change FAQ link above to the HTML version instead of the text version.

 

[Solfi]

Re: Luna Takes Command

I also never noticed that, in that picture, the UC has four arms.

You didn't? He's even described somewhere as most often being depicted that way, and with an olive branch, a horn, a sword and a shield in those hands (which fits nicely with what is seen on the pic).

Also, Borgstrom responds to the suggestion that Luna, not the Elemental Dragon of Earth, is Gaia's fetich.

Hmmm... if you're having sex with yourself, but it's a distinct other-person-part of yourself does that count as incest, or masturbation?

 

[Flagg]

Re: Luna Takes Command

...got me thinking that some other Gaian souls are the archetypal babe/mother/crone triplets (the babe, obviously, being Luna's squeeze).

I believe that this trinity is usually lunar in nature in folklore, so having them be Gaian is muddling things a bit. If there are any Maiden-Mother-Crone aspects in the game, they should be aspects of Luna.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Furthermore, your theory of any one of those characters being a component soul of Gaia is entirely non-canonical, and thus wouldn't be reflected in canon art.

Then who is the eighth individual depicted, if not Gaia?

 

[RainOfSteel]

Re: Luna Takes Command

That's correct, at least according to this FAQ:

I looked that site over, and couldn't establish what it's canonicity is (or other authority/officiality).


------------------------------------------------


And over here someone was wondering why I was upset over the Realm Defense Grid getting locked down as being partly the handiwork of Autochthon.


If I ever want to write up that campaign idea, I'm going to get beaten up over that, as well.

 

[wordman]

Re: Luna Takes Command

I believe that this trinity is usually lunar in nature in folklore, so having them be Gaian is muddling things a bit. If there are any Maiden-Mother-Crone aspects in the game, they should be aspects of Luna.

Hmm. Never seemed that lunar to me, in Exalted or otherwise, particularly the crone. It suppose its true in Wiccan style mythology. It isn't in Greek/Roman mythology, however (i.e. the Moirae (Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos) were not associated with Selene). Nor in Norse (Mani is a guy, for one thing, who had nothing to do with the Norns). The triple goddess Holle had no lunar associations either. Some new agey style religions base their triple goddess from the Greek myths of Persephone, Demeter and Hecate, none of which has much of a lunar association. Even the Celtic White Maiden/Red Mother/Black Crone doesn't seem to have a lot of lunar influence (Brigid, the White Maiden, for example, was all about fire).


If anything, the triple goddess seems most often associated with Fate, which does weird things if transferred into Exalted mythology. Within Exalted, Luna seems to me to be much more about duality: the line between man and woman, animal and human, Creation and the Wyld. I never considered Luna as a triplet at all.

 

[Flagg]

Then who is the eighth individual depicted, if not Gaia?

Huh? I thought this was already covered. The picture shows the Five Maidens, the US, Luna, and Gaia.

 

[Jukashi]

I believe we have a difficulty, here, in differentiating between "Gaia" and "Gaia's component souls". Gaia can manifest herself- she isn't limited to one of her souls doing things for her.

 

[wordman]

I believe we have a difficulty, here, in differentiating between "Gaia" and "Gaia's component souls". Gaia can manifest herself- she isn't limited to one of her souls doing things for her.

If so, she may be the only Primordial with that ability.

 

[Jukashi]

What about the Ebon Dragon talking to woman in the 1st Ed. DB book? It's clearly the Ebon Dragon himself, rather than one of his component souls.

 

[Flagg]

If so, she may be the only Primordial with that ability.

What evidence suggests that Primordials/Yozi can't manifest as a singular entity? Everything I remember reading suggests the opposite.

 

[Kremlin KOA]

Size mismatch error?


(the self beings are usualy BIG)

 

[Jukashi]

Not necessarily. Bilocation again. Gaia can be at one and the same time both all of Creation and a woman in green DMing the Games of divinity, just as the Ebon Dragon can be the size pictured in the 1st Ed. DB Book and large enough to block out Ligier's light.

 

[Solfi]

Ah, yes... the wonderful world of White Wolf meta-physics. Brings back memories of discussions on the nature of the Correspondence sphere in Mage. Man, you gotta love that reality thought-experiment shit.


... meanwhile, noone bothered answering my very pertinent self-sexuality question. I'm so very disappointed.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Then who is the eighth individual depicted, if not Gaia?

Huh? I thought this was already covered. The picture shows the Five Maidens, the US, Luna, and Gaia.

You specifically stated the following:

Furthermore, your theory of any one of those characters being a component soul of Gaia is entirely non-canonical, and thus wouldn't be reflected in canon art.

Are you saying that you were only, specifically, discussing the "component soul" status?


If it wasn't a component soul, then what are the five Elemental Dragons?