Elemental Dragons, where?

"Electricity" sounds an awful lot like "Lightning", which is an Autocthonian element rather than a Gaian one.
 
... and 'Radiation' and 'Acid' would most definitely be more of Autochthonian elements than Gaian ones.


The idea of acid as a separate element actually offends me a little. And lightning I would put under purview of the element of Air.
 
If Gaia had more component souls and if it's an Elemental Dragon like the five, I think it should be Anti-Earth more than anything... >_>


There was a speculation about this Anti-Earth Dragon, the ED of instability and desolution. Joined the Primordials' in the War, was abandoned by Gaia (is that possible anyway? Abandon your component soul?) and finally became... the Ebon Dragon.
 
That'd be some kinda freaky Wyld-Element Dragon. And that wouldn't make sense, because the Wyld is all elements, and none, at once. And Water is already sort-of connected to the Wyld.
 
The Ebon Dragon is a full blown Yozi. That theory would make him a Third Circle-level demon instead.


Why would Gaia have a soul that stands in opposition to herself, anyway?


Any asshole can speculate. That doesn't mean speculations are automatically worth consideration.
 
Besides, Anti-Earth sounds like an Acid Dragon.


Corrodes everything it touches.  Except MM.
 
As I see it, the Ebon Dragon isn't a dragon in the "traditional", elemental sense at all. I mean, it's a completely different being. It just happens to have enough characteristics in common with the elemental dragons to make it ... dragonesque.


The elements are *Gaias* components souls, influencing the way Creation (ie, her body) works.


If anything, the Ebon Dragon should have demonic aspects, that influence Malfeas (which, to my knowledge, it does!). Besides, the Ebon Dragon is an actual *Yozi* thus putting him on par with Gaia, rather than her component souls...
 
While third circle demons have a fixed number of souls (seven), Primordials have variable numbers. Adjoran, for example, has 20 (see Games of Divinity, pg. 90). It's probable that the more souls, the more powerful they are, but I don't think this is stated anywhere.


So it may be that Gaia really only has five souls. If she has more though, I'd speculate that one might represent the "dark side" of nature and be responsible for the nameless hordes that the Mountain Folk fight all the time. Another might actually be the city of Yu-Shan. These would complete Creation, by dictating what is metaphorically "under" and "over" it, similar to the way the Elemental Dragons define its lateral borders. It may also be that the Elemental Poles themselves are component souls.


Also:

[QUOTE="The Blessed Isle]It is first and foremost imperative to understand the difference between the Elemental Dragons and the Immaculate Dragons. The Elemental Dragons, according to Immaculate doctrine, are the sum Essential total of Creation’s primal make-up. Birthed by the Primordial Gaia, the five Elemental Dragons are the foundation of Creation in the same way that the wheels of a wagon are its foundation. The wagon is not only built atop the wheels, but the very presence of the wheels makes the contraption a wagon. Without them, it may be many things, but it is not a wagon.
The Elemental Dragons are purest primal elemental othernessâ€â€their forms are too pure to be made manifest in Creation. Yet, in Immaculate theology, the Elemental Dragons are not aloof or uncaring. They are simply distant, out of a desire to preserve the great Creation of their mother. Even from their distance, however, the Elemental Dragons could not miss the horror the Anathema wrought on their mother’s Creation, threatening to rend it asunder and disperse its totality into the chaos of the Wyld.


The Immaculate Order does not comment on the nature of the Elemental Dragons, believing them to be beings of utter transcendence. The Immaculate Texts teach that mortals can never wholly understand the Elemental Dragons, so it contains no commentary on these transcendent beings. What mortals and Exalted can understand of the Elemental Dragons is present in the Immaculate Dragons, so the Order has nothing to say on the matter of the Elemental Dragons.

[/QUOTE]
 
wordman said:
So it may be that Gaia really only has five souls. If she has more though, I'd speculate that one might represent the "dark side" of nature and be responsible for the nameless hordes that the Mountain Folk fight all the time. Another might actually be the city of Yu-Shan. These would complete Creation, by dictating what is metaphorically "under" and "over" it, similar to the way the Elemental Dragons define its lateral borders. It may also be that the Elemental Poles themselves are component souls.
Click to expand...
That is also how I see Gaia's makeup viz-a-viz the Elemental Dragons.


I also think that one of her component souls is Luna's lover (I assume pictured on p.4 of GoD, the fellow in the white jacket*).  This component would be the link to Gaia that supplies Luna with her additional power (p.53 Exalted).  At one time I believed this component also participated in the Games.  However, the description of what happens to Yu-Shan's sky in the Sidereals gives no explanation for what might happen if Gaia were "ahead", like there is for the other seven, and this makes me think that Gaia does not currently participate.


It also makes me believe that while the Primordials enjoyed the Games, they were not addicted to it as the Gods are.


* Yes, I might easily be wrong, but that has been my assumption.
 
Perhaps the Primordials were not additcted to the GoD because they created it, unlike the Gods.  Their lesser stature may be what makes them suseptable to its effects.
 
The primordials were pretty hooked too, since they created the gods for the express purpose of allowing them to play the games more often. But stature definetely has something to do with it, since mortals- even Exalted- can't even survive playing the Games.


Though they never mentioned Dragon Kings.
 
... I was under the impression that the Gods got their chance to rebel, because of precisely that.  Due to the inattention of the Primordials, busy with the Games they so craved.
 
Though strangely, Luna seems less affected than even Gaia.


Luna does a comparatively large amount of stuff (meeting new Lunars, recommending Elder Lunars for high rank) compared not only to the other Incarna, but compared to even Gaia herself. When was the last time Gaia did anything?


And it's not like Luna's required to do that stuff. She's just in charge of a big shiny ball of rock, along with maybe heading up the Trickster-god stuff and maybe something to do with tides and menstrual cycles. She has just as much free time as Gaia, and is decidedly less powerful, and yet she does more in Creation.
 
Jukashi said:
Though strangely, Luna seems less affected than even Gaia.
Luna does a comparatively large amount of stuff (meeting new Lunars, recommending Elder Lunars for high rank) compared not only to the other Incarna, but compared to even Gaia herself. When was the last time Gaia did anything?


And it's not like Luna's required to do that stuff. She's just in charge of a big shiny ball of rock, along with maybe heading up the Trickster-god stuff and maybe something to do with tides and menstrual cycles. She has just as much free time as Gaia, and is decidedly less powerful, and yet she does more in Creation.
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So? Do you want her to get a prize?
 
My guess is that Luna cant keep her mind on any one thing for too long; just like a kid with a short attention span.  In her case, its full blown ADD.
 
Solfi said:
... I was under the impression that the Gods got their chance to rebel, because of precisely that.  Due to the inattention of the Primordials, busy with the Games they so craved.
Click to expand...
Jukashi said:
Though strangely, Luna seems less affected than even Gaia.
Click to expand...
Jukashi said:
The primordials were pretty hooked too, since they created the gods for the express purpose of allowing them to play the games more often.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I did say "[...] they were not addicted to it as the Gods are.", and not "not addicted to it at all".


I apologize that I did not say specifically that I believed the Primordials wanted to play the Games, I just don't think they were as locked down by it as the Incarna are.

Jukashi said:
Luna does a comparatively large amount of stuff (meeting new Lunars, recommending Elder Lunars for high rank) compared not only to the other Incarna,
Click to expand...
It could be due to the fact that Luna is receiving a power-flow (whatever that really means) from a Primordial that allows her to still care about these other pursuits she follows.

Jukashi said:
[...] but compared to even Gaia herself. When was the last time Gaia did anything?
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Um, well, I believe it may be possible that one of Gaia's component souls is concentrating "his" time with Luna.


Although it doesn't specifically say it, I've always assumed the Incarna had something over the lesser gods, and that is a bi-location ability.


The UC, Luna, and the Maidens are in the sky, and yet in Yu-Shan.


If they so desire, I'm believe they can create a very limited number of copies of themselves.


It's just clear that Luna is the only one that cares to do so.*


Luna and Gaia spend a lot of time together this way, at the same time that Luna is also playing the Games (this is not stated anywhere, AFAIK, it's my assumption).  This extra copy is probably the one that shows up at Lunar Exaltations (she gets notes from Lytek in advance).

Jukashi said:
And it's not like Luna's required to do that stuff. She's just in charge of a big shiny ball of rock, along with maybe heading up the Trickster-god stuff and maybe something to do with tides and menstrual cycles. She has just as much free time as Gaia, and is decidedly less powerful, and yet she does more in Creation.
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The "fellow in the white" jacket may be the only component soul of Gaia that is active, and "he" spends his time with Luna (the "extra copy" of Luna).


There might be an additional explanation for the inactivity of Gaia's other component souls.


She's pretty much the only surviving free Primordial (I believe she doesn't know that Autochthon is still alive except as a big fat "maybe").


Her inaction allowed all her fellows to quasi-die or be imprisoned.


Survivor's guilt leading to depression and lassitude?  Perhaps topped off by disgust at the Incarna for being so addicted to the Games and letting Creation (i.e. Gaia) effectively degrade?  Perhaps topped off yet more by conflict of feelings for Luna, who is also allowing Creation (Gaia) to degrade?


Only the "fellow in the white jacket" remains active because "he" specifically is "built" (by Gaia's fetich/overmind-soul, wherever that is) to concentrate on Luna.


-----------------------------------------


* Just as a side note, the Sidereals talks about parties where "high gods" not watching the Games attend (p.28).


I generally assume that the Incarna send copies of themselves to a handful of important parties in Yu-Shan each year.  Possibly 2-3.  The Incarna hold what little court that they do at these parties.  They get lied to a lot, skim over a handful of falsified reports that they never check on, eat a lot of Peaches, drink a lot of Wine (more than they normally eat/drink while playing the Games), and generally don't do anything important.  Mortals, dragon kings, and Exalted never attend such parties (ever).
 
Sherwood said:
My guess is that Luna cant keep her mind on any one thing for too long; just like a kid with a short attention span.  In her case, its full blown ADD.
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I don't know, I just don't do Luna as ADD or ADHD.


I have read more than once the above opinion about Luna on Exalted Compendium.  It is just because of her trickster nature that she is assigned such characteristics?
 
No, I mainly do it to antagonize Jukashi all the live long day. I could give half a shit on the other hand.
 
Luna Takes Command


Lunars Campaign Idea:


Luna, having received a "power flow" from Gaia for millennia, and having been active somewhat where the other Incarna have been in what amounts to artifact-induced stasis, develops to a new level (her power magnifies somewhat).


She reaches the point where the Games affect her only as much as they did the Primordials so long ago.  Gaia secretly aided this development over a lengthy period of time.  Gaia has also been subtly influencing Luna about the problems that Creation is currently facing across the whole time, as well.


Luna shocks all of Yu-Shan by effectively leaving the Games for short periods of time, an hour here, an hour there.  She allows various major gods to take over her position during this time (earning an enormous rack of debts from these gods).


The US and the Maidens are only too happy to use this opportunity to advance their positions in the Games.


Luna takes some of this time to go down into Creation and examine what is happening there first hand.  She travels incognito in quick forays using her many powers to view and travel and learn as much as she can, as fast as she can.


After a time (a month or two), Luna begins interfering in the bureaucracy of Heaven.  She calls all the Celestial Censors together and informs them that she has reviewed the last year's reports and found them wanting.  She declares that the annual summaries for next year had best be up to the highest standards, or else jobs will be lost.


Chaos ensues.


The Censors begin to try and pull strings to get the attention of the other Incarna and/or cause the bureaucracy to work against Luna.


Luna calls in her debts* from the gods she has allowed to take moves in the Games to thwart this.


* Luna's backlog of favors owed for allowing so many gods to make moves in the Games is continuing to grow even while calling in some markers for this purpose.


Some of the gods that Luna has allowed to take over her position, by this time, have made multiple moves (spaced out over time).  This has made several of them her effective slaves.


When the Sidereals attempt to gain an audience with the Maidens in order to get them to rein in Luna, Luna has Chejop Kejak personally audited, and initiates an audit of the Bureau of Destiny.


The Sidereals and many allied Censors and other gods begin a major assault on seeing a petition for an audience with any of the Maidens through to success.  (The US completely ignores all such requests.)


Eventually, due to the interference in the affairs of the Bureau of Destiny, they succeed.


The Maidens receive an audience of the deputy heads of the divisions, who try to convince them of the problems Luna is creating.


The Maidens don't take this very seriously, but do actually agree to meet with Luna and discuss it.


Luna stands on pointing out that she hadn't been interfering with the Bureau of Destiny until it tried to stop her efforts to clean up the act of the Censors.  She promises to stop the audits if the Bureau of Destiny will not interfere with her efforts in regard to the Censors or the Bureaus of Heaven, Seasons, Humanity, and Nature.  She also explains that she is trying to clean up some of the problems currently afflicting the bureaucracy in those Bureaus (which even the Maidens do realize has problems, although they simply haven't cared to pay attention to the problems for a long time), but not in the Bureau of Destiny (as obviously that is the purview of the Maidens).


The Maidens mull this over, and with thoughts of the Games tugging at them, they agree to this plan and go back to the games.  One reason they agree to this is that Luna's absence has given them many more opportunities to lead in the Games (the gods taking over Luna's position can't play the game as well as she can, and the nature of their singleton moves means that they cannot conduct effective strategies).  The Maidens collectively believe that Luna's activities will only drag her out of the Games even further, and that can only benefit their own positions.


The audits of Chejop Kejak and the Bureau of Destiny are withdrawn, and the Maidens specifically order the Bureau not to interfere with anything Luna is working on (an overly broad order given while they were on their way back to the Games at top speed).


Luna takes some time to look into why Creation has reached such a terrible state when things looked so grand when the Solars were first left in charge.  She digs up, with difficulty, the full information about the Solar's madness and the Usurpation (led by the Sidereals).


Luna simply does not understand why the Solars and Lunars all effectively went off the deep end at once.  It makes no sense.


She asks Lytek for information on how all the Solars and Lunars could have gone mad at once.  At first he will say nothing, but eventually Luna offers several moves in the Games as an inducement, and Lytek is persuaded to tell her about the Curse.


Luna is as shocked as her age and wisdom allow.  She consults with Gaia, who agrees that such a thing could have been possible.  Luna also finds out from Lytek that he has been attempting to remove the Curse since the Usurpation, without success.


Luna asks the incarnation of Gaia inhabiting Yu-Shan how the Curse can be undone or removed, but this version of Gaia does not know.  Gaia does speculate that Gaia's Fetich might know.  Luna travels to Gaia's Fetich in Creation (wherever the ST wants it to be) to see if she can learn what the solution might be.


Gaia's Fetich cannot be roused.  Luna's lover recommends that they secure a huge influx of Essence and Ambrosia in order to awaken the Fetich.


The trouble is, Ambrosia is in short supply, and the amount of Essence that would need to be delivered exceeds just about anything that exists in Creation, except for the Sword of Creation (SoC).  Luna does not know how to access the SoC, and with the Empress gone, there is no one in Creation left to ask.  Luna tries to dig into Heaven's records, but it turns out the Bureau of Destiny had effectively confiscated the information long ago.  Of course, in retaliation for earlier problems, the Bureau now refuses to release the information (by claiming they don't have it).


Luna hatches a plot, with her Lunars at the center, to take over the Blessed Isle, depose the Realm, and seize control of the SoC so that it will be ready for use once she has the information on how to use it.


This plot includes a massive effort to resurrect the active worship of her in order to generate additional Ambrosia.  She and Gaia begin stockpiling their own shares of Ambrosia.  She mulls over selling moves in the Games for large quantities of the substance.  She thinks of selling Peaches and Wine, too, but Gaia convinces her the other Incarna would put a stop to it and possibly be roused to interfere with her activities.


By this time, she is spending 1-2 days a week outside the Games.  If you believe in Incarna bi-location, as I do, Luna leaves her copy (the one that previously spent time with Gaia) to run her position in the Games as much as possible, but her activities are so wide-ranging in an attempt to seize effective control over Heaven's bureaucracy that she cannot always do this (she needs to be doing more than one thing at a time too often just in Yu-Shan).


Luna tells no one (except Gaia) about the Curse.


------------------------------------------


In the meantime, in Creation, Luna has appeared to all the major packs of Lunars and delivered unto them a mission.


"You will act to restore Creation's order.  Search out and reunite with the Solars that yet remain and take once again your rightful position as the rulers of Creation.  You will work tirelessly to restore my temples and assure that propitiation proceeds apace."


This throws all the Lunars for a loop.  Almost all of them feel that this request is impossible to fulfill, but most all feel it is impossible to refuse their goddess.  It is at once the order to depose the hated Realm they have wanted to hear for so long, and also a dreaded order to cooperate with Solars (in what they think will eventually be an inferior role).


One pack she sets to hunting for the Scarlet Empress, a backup plan to locate information on the SoC, roughly assuming that the Empress would tell her anything about it.


Luna may give out some artifacts dug up from her palaces (the armories of the Crimson Panoply of Victory are denied to her).


And so the campaign begins.  Do the Lunars accept Luna's order, or do they fight against it?  Do they ally with the Bronze or Gold Faction of the Sidereals or avoid them?


What do the Solars do when the Lunars show up and say, "Hey, let's team up?"  (Oh boy!)


Does the Gold Faction get the information about the Sword of Creation to Luna when they realize that she is moving to restore the Solars?  When they do realize that, do they even want it to happen?


What do all the Sidereals do in relation to the Maidens' order not to interfere with Luna?  Do they obey, or not?


What are the Bronze Faction and the Bureau of Destiny doing about this while Luna, step by step, takes over absolute control of the other Bureaus (this will take Luna considerable time)?  Especially given than the Bureau of Heaven is effectively preeminent in Yu-Shan, far more so that the Bureau of Destiny, which has had free-reign for thousands of years while the Bureau of Heaven was locked ever further in a static ineffectiveness arising from increasing corruption.


Where are the Autochthonians in all this?  Are the united Solars and Lunars able to deal with this?  Is the Realm, now opposed by combined Solars and Lunars actively working for their specific overthrow and a return to the First Age, able to fight the forces that have rolled over the South?


What do the Neverborn and Yozis start doing?  Their plans take none of this into account.  Nothing could have foreseen that Luna would leave off the Games.  They, of course, work to split apart the Solars and Lunars, and actively work to support the Realm (oh, what an irony).


Perhaps the Neverborn's plans to use the Autochthonians to aid in the destruction of Creation (and possibly in the death of Autochthon) will have to be put on hold.  Perhaps they will have to work against them!  Perhaps a course where all sides collide and die can be found and steered toward?


The last thing the Neverborn and Yozis want is the Solars back in control of the Sword of Creation.  They fully believe that Heaven knows how to use it, and under Luna's leadership, will instruct the Solars in its use.


What is happening in all the spirit courts where Terrestrial Censors are showing up and demanding accurate reports and that spirits actually do their jobs?


Wars, covert missions, mysteries, conflicted sides all around.


Sounds good to me.


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