Eclipse...so frustrating

M

Malekith

Junior Member
Dear all


I have been trying to come up with an eclipse class, that, in my opinion, would be playable.


But much to my chagrin, I just cant get past the fact that all 5 of the favoured abilities suck toes.


Has anyone come up with a house system that works, or somehow to make them more attractive?


I love their caste abilities, but the rest... blech...


Let me know!
 
Malekith said:
But much to my chagrin, I just cant get past the fact that all 5 of the favoured abilities suck toes...
I love their caste abilities, but the rest... blech...
Click to expand...
Wait, what? You like the Caste Abilties, but you don't like their Favoured abilities? You select the Favoured Abilties when you make an Eclipse character.
 
Oops! I meant the caste abilities. Sorry.


IMO, Ride and Sail can be easily made nearly obsolete, with Beauracracy and Socialize and linguistics somewhat problematic
 
Honestly, I think Dawns are much more useless rules-wise than Eclipse.  They'll probably buy Charms in two of their Caste Abilities (War and something else) and have to rely on their Favored to do anything besides fight.  


Eclipse Castes also probably have the best Anima powers out of all the Solars (depending on how your ST treats the sanctified oaths).
 
And don't forget...they can learn almost anything. That is more than worth a poor favored list. Though Sail is less weak than people think...after all, what do you use to fly the Kireeki Class Sky Ships? ;) Linguistics has some nice charms...and if you're up for large scale social combat, Bureacracy and Socialize are good too. Pick some useful favored abilities (you have FIVE of them) and you should do fine. One combat, likely Presence or Performance, and then any three others that make sense to your concept. Only reason I don't play more of them is I'm somewhat worried they are TOO strong. Their Anima power is very good, and they can learn just about anything. Want Void Necromancy? Be an Eclipse. Want DB Lore blasty and learny charms? Be an Eclipse. Want Sutras for your Siderial Martial Arts you somehow beat out of a Sidereal tied up in your basement? Be an Eclipse. Trust me, they are VERY far from weak...though they may take a little thinking to use effectivelly.
 
Malekith said:
I have been trying to come up with an eclipse class, that, in my opinion, would be playable.
But much to my chagrin, I just cant get past the fact that all 5 of the Caste abilities suck toes.
Click to expand...
Then you need to explain to us what you consider "playable", because that's entirely omitted.  What sort of general great deeds do you want to do?  What kind of plots do you want to involve yourself in?  What motivations and glories do you want to pursue?
 
Here's a short discussion on the Eclipse Caste abilities, and what they can be used for.


Bureaucracy - this is organization and salesmanship on a large scale.  It deals with anything that exists in an organization.  This includes:  military units; financial institutions and trade-houses such as the Guild, or local banks; sprawling markets; the mechanics of keeping a ruler's court running; the cogs that allow a king's commands to be transmitted to the corners of his kingdom; and more.


Want to deflect an army from attacking a village?  Edit their marching orders.  Want to set up a secret society right in the heart of a bustling metropolis?  Put in a few orders for construction, bribe the right census-taker and mapmaker, and you can have a little area of the neighborhood that nobody remembers ever existed.  Need to amass a fortune quickly?  Chisel a few jade pieces from every major transaction in a trade-house.  Need to impress a ruler?  Show him how corrupt and inefficient his clerks and servants have become, and give him a hard number for how much money he'd save by hiring you.


Linguistics - more than just languages, this ability gives you bonus dice when making written social attacks.  Need to sway the intellectuals of the Heptagram to your cause?  Write some skillfully-worded diatribes and circulate pamphlets.  Need to convey secret messages that only your co-conspirators will receive?  Linguistics Charms can help.  Want to compose poetry that will win the princess's heart?  Linguistics can help.  Need to warn the tribesmen that your archaeological rival is evil?  You need to speak their language.


Socialize - the skill of dealing with (and convincing) people in large numbers.  Affects the same sorts of groups that Bureaucracy does, but on a more personal, immediate level.  You can arrange marriages or convince warlords of the need for their armies to march.  You can convince nations to adopt some taboo, or to give up their revulsion of the Anathema.  You can overthrow a satrapy of the Realm by popular support, or you can show the Threshold that the Blessed Isle is its only true protector.


Basically, the Eclipse Caste abilities are not about fighting duels with Abyssals or defeating the Wyld Hunt in open combat.  If those are the things you enjoy doing, create a Dawn Caste.  However, they are fantastic at changing the world your character lives in.  If you have a Motivation to guide the mortal or supernatural worlds in some direction and it won't involve fighting, the Eclipse abilities will be very useful.
 
Malekith said:
Ride and Sail can be easily made nearly obsolete
Click to expand...
Any ability can be "obsolete" or useless if a story doesn't involve the ability much.  You should talk to your Storyteller about the sorts of things he expects to happen in the game, and plan accordingly.  A game set on the coast of the Threshold and involving piracy and politics would be ideal for an Eclipse, for example, while a Creation-wide search for artifacts and wonders may go infinitely smoother with an Eclipse who can smooth over difficulties with local rulers, nomadic tribesmen, and supernatural beings like the Fair Folk.


Also remember that Ride isn't just for horses, and Sail isn't just for water-borne boats.  If you want to get into high-powered games where the characters have draconic mounts and First Age skyships, these two abilities become quite relevant.
 
Learn Principle of Motion.


Read the sidereal and terrestrial Ride charms.


Many think the sidereal charms make sidereals über. They don't, because sidereals have a number of drawbacks to offset them. Eclipses don't have any of these drawbacks. Ergo, the sidereal charms make Eclipses über.
 
So, you want to be Hannibal? Then play a Zenith.


So, you want to be B.A.?  Then play a Dawn.


So, you want to be Murdoch? Then play a Twilight.


But you want the ladies? You want the lovin'? You hook straight up the Face Man.


The ladies love the Face Man.


If you can't understand that, then maybe you need to back away from the Eclipse Caste...
 
I will admit 2nd ed seriously nerfed the eclipse


but it only brought them back into line with the other castes


1st ed eclipse as a starting character, with the 4 trade based beauracracy charms can OWN the threshold in a season or 3


with the socialize charms he can get rulers to give him their kingdoms


this is as a starting character


in 2nd ed an eclipse who takes performance as a favored ability can make chain letters that cause revolutions in the realm, but which the dragon bloods never see the hidden message in


he can use as personal flying artifact to perform kamikaze attacks on the imperial fleet and SURVIVE


he can wield social fu to convert armies to his cause (remember if he uses his charms the 2 willpower rule does not apply)


he can summon himself a horse and be a messenger, he can make himself understood anywhere in creation


he can procure the equipment for the army either he or the zenith spent so much time recruiting... and the dawn spent training


in short an eclipse can easily be the most powerful member of a circle
 
Thanks for all the input guys!


As expected, the3re was some times I got my ass flamed, but in all, there was some very good feedback [including the flamers!], and some good advice!


You have convinced me to give it a whirl. I will post back when I have conquered the threshold =)
 
Another point is that Solars have 5 favoured abilities. That's as many as they have caste abilities.


So, you may not use both of sail and ride (Unless you want to be... boat... cavalry... um. Never mind.). So what? Sidereals only get 4 favoured abilities, and Dragonbloods only 3. You still come out ahead in the "I get this ability for cheap" contest.
 
'Sigh' my Eclipse Caste broken ass Solar requires six months to rule the Scvenger Lands instead of the six weeks that it 'should' take.


This is why I do not ST Solar games anymore.  Don't you think that the Realm and Lookshy would notice something like that and put a hit on the Solar?  I don't know about you all, but I play ST characters and organizations as if they have half a brain and a proper spine.  Solar players have a tendency of thinking they are God and then I have to give them an early grave.  The problem is that they are demi-gods and even demi-gods are killable.  Hell, a mortal thaumaturge, given enough time and effort, can build a ward powerful enough to repel any Celestial Exalt in Creation and keep them far away enough so that they couldn't pop it with a Counterspell.  Of course, in that case, they get a friendly DB, DK or God-Blooded to help them pop it, but they at least need someone else.


I did have one game where the Solars were properly cautious.  That was a group.  When the game ended, they had a small kingdom in the Northwest, the little subcontinent there, and were working on building a utopian society with a small colony of civilized Pteroks and their mortal followers who lived there.  The Eclipse in that group used his abilities to learn the Path of Solid Earth and the Path of Growing Wood, so that he could become a more effective artifact crafter.  That was a group.
 
Don't you think that the Realm and Lookshy would notice something like that and put a hit on the Solar?  I don't know about you all' date=' but I play ST characters and organizations as if they have half a brain and a proper spine.[/quote']
Let's talk about the Realm for a moment.  The Realm can't put a hit on Lookshy (particularly in its current state), and it has tried two full-fledged invasions of the Scavenger Lands (both of which failed).  Even the Bull of the North was able to take the Tepet legions (and even assuming they were sacrificed for political reasons as is suggested).  This tells me that the Realm's force-projection ability is limited sharply by their political climate and arrogance.  In addition, the Realm sending fleets of soldiers after an "Anathema nation" would also certainly grab Lookshy's attention, since I doubt anyone in the Seventh seriously believes the Great Houses would stop with that.  This leaves war-by-proxy, involving the loyal satrapies against your would-be kingdom, but there's also a lot of people in the River Province who are itching for an excuse to raid the satrapies in return (for vengeance, for wealth, whatever).


Lookshy is another matter.  The Seventh does not have an overriding religious excuse to quash the Anathema; its reasons are primarily pragmatic, depending on which of the gentes is in power at the moment.  If a Solar can show that he will make a better, more stable, and more prosperous ruler than whatever despot is on the throne of some kingdom at the moment, I'm pretty sure the Seventh can be convinced to recognize that.  This is where hard-core diplomacy comes into play - you must appease Lookshy, you must convince the Confederation of Rivers that you aren't going to steamroller them, you must not present yourself as too much of a threat to the Mask of Winters, the Walker in Darkness, etc., and you must be enough of a success to justify the experiment.


If players in my games take these factors into consideration, I have no problem with them doing things like unifying the Hundred Kingdoms into a Solar nation (which in fact they did).
Click to expand...
 
The Abyssal book specifies that their main enemy and main target to destroy are Solars. I dont see them negotiating much with the Deathlords and AByssals in the long run ;P
 
*sales pitch voice*


And here are a fine assortment of our best Bronze Tools.  Now, just cooperate and we won't have to use them on you. :)


bronze5.jpg
 
Wow. That rare? Which god did you kill for them? Or wait, I likely don't remember them... that whole likely being written out of fate sort of thing.


Oh, and sorry for the thread jacking.


As for the whole Eclipse taking over the world in mere weeks or months...that does forget the fact that everyone else has their own Bureacracy and Socialize charms too. And there are members of the other exalt types who are much older than the Solars about...with larger dice pools and MDVs. While admittedly, unless the Sidereals get a serious rewrite, their Bureacracy charms have little to do with Bureacracy, but the DBs, who are far more common, and involved in a large number of creation's bureacracies at the higher levels, DO have such charms. Are their charms as strong...not generally...quite. But they are older, and there are more of them. It is going to take more than just a few charm uses to control creation...but actual thinking, and working with others. Is it impossible? No. This does not mean such is likely going to be a cake walk. Can the Eclipse make the path to such much smoother? Yes. But they can't just use a few charms and laugh,"I own the world now." For one, where's the fun and story in that? For another...while Eclipse abilities are wonderful on extras... like everyone else's abilities, they go from insane to merely strong in the face of real opposition. Do they have an edge? Yes. But they are also fighting an uphill battle against overwhelming numbers...unless they go to the effort of changing that fact. And Solars aren't the only ones with good mental defenses...at least in 2ed. One of the major improvements between 1e and 2 is that social rules actually exist, and so there IS some defense against a highly social character. Does this mean such are useless? No. It just means that they are on the same powerlevel within their own purview as the combat monkey is within theirs.
 
I see no problem with them taking over a small nation early in the game.  There are plenty of perfectly mortal people who are Kings out there and it's only natural that one is corrupt and after freeing the people the Solar can become King himself.
 
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