Eating yourself with regen?

[Lord Ben]

If you're a Lunar with regen (or anything with regen really) can you never starve?  Will you eat youself and regen the damage?

 

[Flagg]

While I don't think it's elucidated anywhere in the book, I feel comfortable giving the following answer:


NO.

 

[memesis]

My response is slightly more verbose:  "Sure.  Now think carefully about how long it'll be before your character becomes a Wyld-tainted Chimera, since that's the inevitable outcome of such cannibalism, and decide which goals you want to get done before you lose the character."

 

[Lord Ben]

It's not my character.  I was just designing a situation in which the PC's could potentially, if they mess up, become trapped for a very long time.  Yet I wasn't sure if there was a downside to it or anything.

 

[Flagg]

There was a discussion back from First Edition about whether a Lunar with the regen gifts could hold their breath indefinitely. I think the same arguments would apply.


The general consensus, as I recall, was no. You might want to search for it and see if you can dig it up.

 

[memesis]

It's not my character.  I was just designing a situation in which the PC's could potentially' date=' if they mess up, become trapped for a very long time.  Yet I wasn't sure if there was a downside to it or anything.[/quote']
Use it to push whatever angle you think needs to be pushed in your game.  For example, if the characters aren't "back to nature" enough for you, give them Survival rolls to forage from whatever's available (however scarce it might be...).  If you want intraparty tension, say "there's not enough food, some of you will starve, figure out who".  If you want to explore Lunar nature, use the "sure you can do that, Chimera" angle I suggested.

 

[Kremlin KOA]

if you hve a charm that lets you regrow limbs, and you have the ability to respire essence then yes you could because you are turning essence into meat and meat into nourishment


but hey, survival charms are simpler. Moonsilver stomach conversion for example.


A lot of people will tell you no because they are thinking about conservation of matter, or of how to stop powergamers.


as to the first I remind the people of the rule where an exalt may supstitute essence for reageants in thaumaturgy.


as to the second, thsi game is designed to be power gamer friendly and to be solid despite people trying for power.

 

[Vanman]

if you hve a charm that lets you regrow limbs, and you have the ability to respire essence then yes you could because you are turning essence into meat and meat into nourishment
but hey, survival charms are simpler. Moonsilver stomach conversion for example.


A lot of people will tell you no because they are thinking about conservation of matter, or of how to stop powergamers.


as to the first I remind the people of the rule where an exalt may supstitute essence for reageants in thaumaturgy.


as to the second, thsi game is designed to be power gamer friendly and to be solid despite people trying for power.

Well, there's power gaming and then there's nuclear Velveeta. This is nuclear Velveeta. I'm with the naysayers. I'd say you could eat yourself if you wanted, but that damage would be unregenable. ST caveat. Done deal.

 

[Kremlin KOA]

Well, there's power gaming and then there's nuclear Velveeta. This is nuclear Velveeta. I'm with the naysayers. I'd say you could eat yourself if you wanted, but that damage would be unregenable. ST caveat. Done deal.

ok lets compare it


2 charms (bruise healing + halting scarlet flow) plus deadly beastman provides food, but scurvy and similar issues remain.


1 charm (Moonsilver stomach conversion) allows you to eat ANYTHING and also prevents any dietary issues. In addition this charm allows you to escape where you are trapped in by EATING THE WALLS (i suggest a lamprey or leach form to help this)


Other problems open up with this ruling


1: what if they rip off a limb and wait for the essence to do the regen bit before chowing down? does the newly regrown limb fall off?


2: does another creature eating their limb cause it to never regen, in that case you are taking away the awesome from the lunars (regen and shapeshift were their thing) if you decide that other creatures noshing does not prevent regen then you have the problem that with a little co-operation they can bypass our restriction. If you go true arbitrary, then your players have no rational or consistent basis for making their decisions. This becomes railroading.


so lets recap


regen eating requires 3 charms and a knack (stam excel + DBT + bruise relief + halting flow) leaves you open to nutrition issues and provides other healing boosts and has a high essence cost)


the other way requires 2 charms (no knacks), has a ridiculously low essence comittment, also lets you eat your way through walls, and provides perfect nutrition.


In addition carving pieces of themself off in different forms shows the kind of harsh decisions that are in theme for Lunars. just because they can regen it does not mean it doesnt hurt.


in the end a Lunar can, by the books, and should be allowed to show Shmoo like properties.


also keep in mind adragon blood with the "Heavenly Transmutation processes" procedure (or master of alchemy degree) can make a few pounds of silver or gold out of thin air with a mere 10 essence. so can any lunar with those things. Considering Lunars can eat the gold...

 

[Vanman]

Whoa, whoa whoa! Hold on there, cowboy! You've taken what I've said and gone off on a tangent. What I said was if the Lunar eats himself, then he doesn't regen the damage. That's it. You're the one who threw in other creatures eathing limbs and what happens then. If that did happen, then the charm would work normally. I don't see how one has anything to do with the other.


As for Moonsilver Stomach Conversion, this would be the way to go. No doubt about that. But this trick seems to me to be a way of avoiding buying Moonsilver Stomach Conversion. "Hey. No need to buy Moonsilver Stomach Conversion. If I'm ever in a pinch, I can just eat myself and heal the damage." Like I said - nuclear Velveeta.

In addition carving pieces of themself off in different forms shows the kind of harsh decisions that are in theme for Lunars. just because they can regen it does not mean it doesnt hurt.

I call bullshit on this little nugget. It doesn't call for any kind of harsh decision. THE CHARACTER CAN HEAL THE WOUNDS WITHIN MINUTES!!!!! What kind of harsh decision is this? Other than some wound penalties and some possible Stamina + Resistance rolls, pain isn't really a factor at all. Particularly if those penalties will be gone as soon as the wounds are healed. If you go back and re-read what I wrote, I said that the character can eat himself. That's not an issue. What I said is he can't regen the damage. Now that is a harsh decision. Do I injure myself in order to keep myself alive with food in my belly? Injuries that can't be healed? Or do I find some other way of staying alive, which may lead to starvation? That's a harsh decision.

also keep in mind adragon blood with the "Heavenly Transmutation processes" procedure (or master of alchemy degree) can make a few pounds of silver or gold out of thin air with a mere 10 essence. so can any lunar with those things. Considering Lunars can eat the gold...

Holy absurd non-sequiturs, Batman! I'm not quite sure why this point was made. In order to eat the gold, the Lunar would have to have Moonsilver Stomach Conversion. In which case, this entire discussion is moot. With MSC this issue isn't a problem. The Lunar just eats whatever's at hand. I'm just not sure why you even made this point.


In my game - and that's what we're talking about here - my game - Luna doesn't look kindly on her warriors eating themselves to stay alive like that. She's given her Chosen so many gifts, charms and powers to keep themselves alive that eating themselves is an absolute last ditch effort. Therefore, Halting the Scarlet Flow doesn't work if they do cut off body parts to eat. If the character cuts off his own limb, it doesn't regen. And before anyone screams "Well, what if the limbs needed as a sacrifice or some such?" Well, what about it? A sacrifice is supposed to be just that - a sacrifice. Is it really a sacrifice if the limb can be regrown in a short amount of time? Think of the sacrifices needed for sorcery. If a Lunar sacrificed a limb to get to Celestial Level sorcery, would the limb be able to be regrown? Not in my game. Therefore, if they cut off the limb and then wait for it to regrow before eating the severed one, it doesn't work. Again, this is my game we're talking about. If you want to do this in your game, you go right ahead. More power to you. But it doesn't stop it from being nuclear Velveeta.

 

[Kremlin KOA]

1: you need to elaborate on the term 'nuclear Velveeta'


2: Fine so if I chop another lunar's arm off and chow down they CAN regrow their arm?

 

[Vanman]

1: you need to elaborate on the term 'nuclear Velveeta'

Pure, unadulterated cheese. Obscene breaking of the spirit of the rules.

2: Fine so if I chop another lunar's arm off and chow down they CAN regrow their arm?

No. Because Luna won't allow the regen to happen. In short, in my game, using the Lunar regen ability is not a cheap way to get food. Again, you can eat yourself. You just don't regen.

 

[Jukashi]

No. Because Luna won't allow the regen to happen. In short, in my game, using the Lunar regen ability is not a cheap way to get food. Again, you can eat yourself. You just don't regen.

So what if your Solar buddy says "Dammit, I don't have any nifty eat-anything Charms!" and then proceeds to wait until you're asleep before chopping off your arm and chowing down on it, possibly with some barbecue sauce? Do you, being a self-healing Lunar, regenerate? And what do you do then? It's not big deal to you, though they could have asked your permission. Do you let your Solar buddy keep munching?


And if it worked for a Solar, why then couldn't two Lunars just exchange limbs with each other? Or what if you have a pair of Abyssals, both with the Charms that allow them to survive on nothing but blood - can they survive by drinking from each other?


In fact, isn't there something similar mentioned about this in regards Alchemicals? If I recall, the book said that it was possible to harvest an infinite supply of magical materials from their body over time, but that if they died, everything taken from them would become worthless junk.

 

[Quchu]

Alchemicals' body parts melt away when they are severed from the Alchemical's Essence circuit. The part about this explicitly said that this was the reason you can't harvest MMs from Alchemicals.


As for Abyssals drinking each other, wouldn't they run out of HLs soon?

 

[FluffySquirrel]

Breaking the spirit of the rules?.. sounds like an ingenius way to use your current talents to survive to me.. sure, another lunar might be able to eat rocks, but you can't.. so you've got to resort to self cannibalism.. .. so?


It's hardly game breaking.. as I believe I once mentioned to Haku, I don't think I ever want to play a game of exalted where starvation particularly becomes an issue.. that would be more along the lines of D&D .. hell.. maybe not even that, quite a lot of D&D games don't bother with food either.


More look at the social stigma of eating yourself regularly.. .. yeah.. that guy won't get invited to many parties, and other lunars will mutter about it behind his back. And if you were doing it the one time just to save your life.. then it's hardly broke the game, and some will probably respect your conviction for survival.

 

[Lord Ben]

It's not so much the case of a game where Exalts die of starvation so much as a game where Lunars don't pack rations along for travel because they just take a bite off their arm when they feel a little hungry.

 

[Vanman]

If all of you want to play it that way, where the Lunar and/or his friends can eat said Lunar, more power to you. Go right ahead. It's your game. What I'm saying is, not in my game.


Having said that, I'm with FS in that I don't want to have my game revolve around whether starvation is a problem. But that's what stunts are for. You can stunt a Survival roll just like you can a combat roll.

 

[Persell]

Just as a side question, if a Lunar loses a limb and then regens it....do the tatoos regen too? or do they need to be re-applied? or is it ST fiat?

 

[Vanman]

I'd say the tattoos regen as well. The tattoos are a physical manifestation of stabilizing magic that helps the Lunar resist the Wyld. As such, that stabilizing magic is suffused within his body. When the limb regenerates, that same stabilizing magic is manifested in the new limb. But that's just how I'd play it. Others may feel differently.

 

[Kremlin KOA]

you never answered


if one exalt conrers a lunar and then cuts off a limb to nosh down on it, does victim lunar heal?


this is not self eating, this is specifically attacking and eating bits of another lunar. Are you going to punish that other lunar for me eating parts of him?

 

[Vanman]

you never answered

Yes I did. Go back and read my posts.

 

[Haku1]

Seriously. starvation should never be an issue with exalted. Not unless you're playing an extremely gritty exalted game... something themed along Warhammer... erm... yeah.... >_>


Also, please note that Silver Pact Lunars have 2 dots of survival, which does mean in just about any situation where they can roll up scrouging for food/water rolls, they'll fucking find it. And yes, stunts do kick in.


As for myself... I would rule, that yes it's possible... but do you REALLY want to be stimatized with the tag of cannibal? And do you ahev ANY idea how fucking long it'll take for an exalt to even come into danger of starving to death? Think about it, by the time you'll be in danger, you'll have enough time to master a charm for eating rocks.

 

[Kremlin KOA]

you never answered

Yes I did. Go back and read my posts.

if you mean

2: Fine so if I chop another lunar's arm off and chow down they CAN regrow their arm?

No. Because Luna won't allow the regen to happen. In short, in my game, using the Lunar regen ability is not a cheap way to get food. Again, you can eat yourself. You just don't regen.

it reads like the one for eating yourself, not somebody else


Ignoring the fact that Luna cannot veto the use of chrms by her exalts. This ruling makes for a very fun and nasty trick, everytime my exalted PC in your game faces a lunar i will plan to eat whatever i slice off. Short version my opponent cannot heal, ever

 

[Persell]

Is anybody else getting dizzy from these two arguing in circles? Neither of you is going to agree with the other. And since its really unlikely that one of you is going to show up at the other's game and make you play their way, it doesn't really matter.

 

[Vanman]

You're right. It's why I didn't answer his last post. I'm done.