Dragon-Blooded Political Game Interest Check

[Jtuxyan]

That depends on how much weight you give to the Great Houses in DB political life vs. how much weight you give to Immaculates, the Guild and the Thousand Scales. A DB society in which the Great Houses have a tight lockdown on everything important is a very different society for a non-DB (or Found Egg or Outcaste) to operate in than a Realm where the head of the Dilligent Imperial Assessors can tell Mnemon "no" and make it stick.
The fundamental logic of a political game is the logic of power. A Realm in which noble birth is both necessary and sufficient for power is a very different Realm from one where noble birth is necessary but not sufficient, which is a very different Realm from one where noble birth is sufficient but not necessary.

[QUOTE="Lord-Leafar]Don't wanna sound harsh, but it kinda goes back to my previous sentiment, the feel of the game is political intrigue, backstabbing and social maneuvering as part of the Dragon Blooded society, the goals you have as a member of a Noble house and a Dragon Blood are not the same as an 'outcaste' of sorts hiding or passing by as a dragon blood, the pressure of marrying the right noble and start bearing children means nothing to a character lacking a dragon bloodline, nor you can ever expect or hope to gain a position of power or influence if you're not of noble birth. Not saying the fae-character concept isn't fun, it just doesn't go with the themes WlfSamurai explained in his opening post, at least that's my perception of it.

[/QUOTE]
You forget the classic counterpoint to that!


"Why would I want to rule the world? That seems dangerous. I'd much rather my brother rule the world, and I rule him."


Anyway, that's how I see a mortal/X-blood in a DB political game.

 

[Scandinavian]

Your brother ruling the world is not materially less dangerous for you if the other guys are competent.

 

[Unbridled Originality]

Your brother ruling the world is not materially less dangerous for you if the other guys are competent.

Yeah. Fastest way to a dynast is through their family.

 

[Lord-Leafar]

Quite honestly, mortals/god-blooded have very little influence in DB politics compared to a proper Dragon Blooded. Hoping to rule behind the scenes is one thing, fearing discovery of one's heritage is another, one fits the theme of political dragon blood intrigue, the other not so much.


All those points aside, I go back to this one: Mechanical balance. I don't see a reason to needlessly complicate things by adding Fae mechanics to the mix, which can be a pain in the ass in a mixed game, keep it simple and elegant, Dragon Blooded game, stick to Dragon Bloods.

 

[Kaji-Oni]

I really wouldn't want to add Fae mechanics to the system, they are basically an entirely different game.

 

[Scandinavian]

Quite honestly, mortals/god-blooded have very little influence in DB politics compared to a proper Dragon Blooded.

That is one way to read the canon, but far from the only one. The head of the Spiral Academy is a mortal Sesus, the Gemstone patrician family can tell outcastes to sit down and shut up and get away with it, mortals are quite well entrenched in the carry trade, patricians carry out most of the actual farming on the Isle, and so on and so forth.

 

[Jtuxyan]

Your brother ruling the world is not materially less dangerous for you if the other guys are competent.

Nonetheless. The fear of not exalting, and what becomes of you if you don't, if a part of DB society. So is the threat of the nebulous "other", the other supernatural creatures in the world who all the good exalts of the realm must hate and fear. I think those are good concepts to introduce in a character.

 

[Lord-Leafar]

That is one way to read the canon, but far from the only one. The head of the Spiral Academy is a mortal Sesus, the Gemstone patrician family can tell outcastes to sit down and shut up and get away with it, mortals are quite well entrenched in the carry trade, patricians carry out most of the actual farming on the Isle, and so on and so forth.

True, there are particular cases and exceptions like in most cases, but given that everyone is playing with starting characters, and between the option of a mortal/god-blood and a Dragon Blood, realistically within the setting who gets the greatest benefits and potential for growth (charms, sorcery, influence, positions of power) from the two?

 

[Esbilon]

[QUOTE="Lord-Leafar]particular cases and exceptions

[/QUOTE]
I think you just said "Player Characters"

 

[Jtuxyan]

[QUOTE="Lord-Leafar]True, there are particular cases and exceptions like in most cases, but given that everyone is playing with starting characters, and between the option of a mortal/god-blood and a Dragon Blood, realistically within the setting who gets the greatest benefits and potential for growth (charms, sorcery, influence, positions of power) from the two?

[/QUOTE]
I thrive on adversity!


That, and, well, I really like the concept of the changeling/faeblood. The weaker member of DB society who has to struggle to remain un-caught and survive.

 

[Lord-Leafar]

Nonetheless. The fear of not exalting, and what becomes of you if you don't, if a part of DB society. So is the threat of the nebulous "other", the other supernatural creatures in the world who all the good exalts of the realm must hate and fear. I think those are good concepts to introduce in a character.

Those concepts are good and fun to play, but again, that's not the premise of this game. When everyone is striving for power (social, political, magical, what have you), you would be striving for survival and a different kind of secrecy, two different focuses that could pull the game in two different and potentially conflicting directions.


That and the threat of other supernatural creatures would be greatly diminished considering the Empress is active, and the Wyld Hunt is at it's peak. The threat is credible in the threshold, in the Blessed Isle not quite.

 

[Esbilon]

[QUOTE="Lord-Leafar]Those concepts are good and fun to play, but again, that's not the premise of this game. When everyone is striving for power (social, political, magical, what have you), you would be striving for survival and a different kind of secrecy, two different focuses that could pull the game in two different and potentially conflicting directions.
That and the threat of other supernatural creatures would be greatly diminished considering the Empress is active, and the Wyld Hunt is at it's peak. The threat is credible in the threshold, in the Blessed Isle not quite.

[/QUOTE]
I am quite certain @Jtuxyan will be able to grab power while fighting for his life. I would actually be quite astonished if he did not.


As for the fear of anathema, that is as present in Empress-era dragonblooded as the fear of witches and demons were to medieval Europeans, if not more so.

 

[Scandinavian]

[QUOTE="Lord-Leafar]True, there are particular cases and exceptions like in most cases, but given that everyone is playing with starting characters, and between the option of a mortal/god-blood and a Dragon Blood, realistically within the setting who gets the greatest benefits and potential for growth (charms, sorcery, influence, positions of power) from the two?

[/QUOTE]
Mechanically speaking, the only thing on that list that a Heroic Mortal cannot obtain is Charms. Whether the Heroic Mortal can obtain any real influence or positions of power depends entirely on what sort of Realm the ST builds - canon is, as previously noted, ambiguous on this point.


My really big objection is to allowing splats that any law-abiding DB would immediately burn at the stake, because it (IMO unnecessarily) constrains what the other players can do. But if someone wants to play a Godblood, or the brother who failed to Exalt, then I don't see the issue. As long as he is clear on the fact that this is essentially "hard mode."

 

[WlfSamurai]

I've decided. For this game, allowable PCs will be Dragon-Blooded, heroic motals, and God-Blooded (with the "correct" justification).


Now, I have little knowledge of the minor houses, in all honesty. Where is the best place to read about them?

 

[Scandinavian]

Roughly in order:


Compass of Celestial Directions: Blessed Isle


Manual of Exalted Power: Dragon-Blooded


Compass of Terrestrial Directions: The Scavenger Lands (Thorns)


CoTD: The North (Cherak)


And that Guild book I don't remember the name of.


But mostly it's a matter of taking a look at the map of the Isle (including the trade lanes), and deciding whether all the areas which have not been explicitly claimed by the Great Houses are divvied up between the Houses or held by Patrician freeholders. Then think a bit about what those areas produce by way of tradeable goods, map the major trade lanes, and you will be able to see who sits on top of a printing press and who can be safely ignored.

 

[Kaji-Oni]

There isn't much explicit mention of them, and the books occasionally call them Cadet Houses, House Ferem in the MoEP: DB book is an example. The Blessed Isle is huge and so are the number of satrapies in the threshold so feel free to say "and this town I just invented is run by House Blah"

 

[Iron Penguin]

Cadet Houses is a heraldic term (loosely speaking) - it means offshoots and sub-branches of the major houses (since the boundary of where a house ends is fairly fluid, and varies depending on your definition, and on the whims of the house's elders). I'm guessing that people with names like Cynis Denovah Avaku are members of Cadet Houses (in this case, house Denovah, a cadet branch of house Cynis).


ETA: This seems to be a different usage to the MoEP usage of "Cadet Houses", which seem (on closer reading) to be separate houses with different names, unlike what I was talking about which seem to be called "households".

 

[WlfSamurai]

This will definitely be an exercise in emergent play as @Kaji-Oni so aptly demonstrated. Sitting down and coming up with every town and territory before-hand would be mind-numbing and a waste. We'll come up with what's needed when it's needed. This'll also allow the players to do same on the fly (hence emergent play). As an example, they could simply state that their family summers in XYZ town on the West coast of the Isle, part of their family holdings. And suddenly, content is created.


I prefer to run this way anyway as it'll allow us to create a tighter story and keep it focussed. Every time we create a new detail, we have the chance to be the story back inward.


Anyway, enough rambling. I'll take a look at the suggested books. Are you guys willing to discuss how to generally divide the Isle up between the Great Houses when the time is right?

 

[Kaji-Oni]

Sure, I recommend that one district be known as a House's "seat" and the rest of their holdings be distributed across the Isle, the Empress wouldnt want them to concentrate their power in one location. It makes it too easy to organize a rebellion.

 

[WlfSamurai]

Agreed. I'll also want to divide up all the Legions before the start of the game so you guys will know where the assets lie.

 

[Jtuxyan]

Agreed. I'll also want to divide up all the Legions before the start of the game so you guys will know where the assets lie.

I would also add that while no house wants to be seen as hoarding assets that could be used to organize a rebellion (like legions), every house wants to horde assets that just make money. For instance, controlling *a* port on the west coast of the isle is much less valuable than controlling *all* of the ports there, or even better, all of the ports and the western costal navy, because that lets you set tariffs at whatever you damn well please.


You can also have groups of semi-allied houses that have quietly agreed to share control of an asset that would be too large for any one of them to hold without risking the Empress's wrath.

 

[Scandinavian]

The way I usually handle the question of "minor houses" is by saying that on the Isle proper, there aren't any (formally speaking): Formally speaking, every DB belongs to precisely one Great House, either by birth (for Dynasts) or because they were adopted into it (for Found Eggs and Outcastes). There are certain mechanical reasons (Dynasty Charms) for the Realm to want to encourage interbreeding between Outcastes, Found Eggs and Dynasts. And there are even better political reasons for wanting to tie everybody into the Great House system.


However, just because you are formally affiliated with one House does not mean that your actual loyalties have to be to that House. They could very well lie with your spouse's House, or with the Imperial Bureaucracy, or with the Order, or with the Legions, or any of half a dozen other important stakeholders.


Another point neglected in canon is the fleet. I personally imagine an organization parallel to the Legions, where the Houses maintain their own fleets, just as they maintain their own Legions, but where the Thousand Scales maintain Directional Fleets crewed by a mixture of Found Eggs of the Coin from different adopted houses, much like the way the Imperial Legions contain a mixture of different House associations.


Having its own military assets substantially strengthens the Imperial center, and offers a way to grant and strip away boons to individuals independently of their houses and without having to overtly meddle in the internal affairs of the Houses.


Remember: The Realm attempts, by construction, to ensure that there are at least two independent, fully redundant institutions with non-overlapping chains of command for any function that's actually important to the functioning of the Realm. And at the same time, it attempts, again by deliberate construction, to ensure that every person of influence always has at least two competing loyalties that he must balance. That, far more than any direct intervention by the Empress or her political police, is what maintains the political stability of the Realm.

 

[Iron Penguin]

Another point neglected in canon is the fleet. I personally imagine an organization parallel to the Legions, where the Houses maintain their own fleets, just as they maintain their own Legions, but where the Thousand Scales maintain Directional Fleets crewed by a mixture of Found Eggs of the Coin from different adopted houses, much like the way the Imperial Legions contain a mixture of different House associations.

I thought House Peleps was in charge of the Imperial Navy.

 

[Scandinavian]

Canonically, Peleps is in charge of the Water Fleet, IIRC. There are four other Directional fleets, plus the Great Blue Fleet of airships.


Also, granting the Houses, nevermind a single house, total control of the sea lanes is, well, uncharacteristically stupid of the Empress. The Legions are very good for making a big, showy example of someone. But the fleets are what binds the Realm together, both commercially and militarily. Losing ever other man in the Legions would be a minor inconvenience. Losing every other ship in the fleet would seriously jeopardize both the Realm's internal stability and its hold of the Threshold satrapies.


Modern authors, including those at White Wolf, are too used to land transport having a speed advantage over water carriage (even today it does not have a cost advantage). Prior to the railway, this was not the case: Land carriage was both slower and more expensive, or in the case of good horse relays, not materially faster but punitively expensive:

A broad-wheeled waggon, attended by two men, and drawn by eight horses, in about six weeks time, carries and brings back between London and Edinburgh near four ton weight of goods. In about the same time a ship navigated by six or eight men, and sailing between the ports of London and Leith, frequently carries and brings back two hundred ton weight of goods. Six or eight men, therefore, by the help of water-carriage, can carry and bring back, in the same time, the same quantity of goods between London and Edinburgh as fifty broad-wheeled waggons, attended by a hundred men, and drawn by four hundred horses. Upon two hundred tons of goods, therefore, carried by the cheapest land-carriage from London to Edinburgh, there must be charged the maintenance of a hundred men for three weeks, and both the maintenance and what is nearly equal to maintenance the wear and tear of four hundred horses, as well as of fifty great waggons. Whereas, upon the same quantity of goods carried by water, there is to be charged only the maintenance of six or eight men, and the wear and tear of a ship of two hundred tons burthen, together with the value of the superior risk, or the difference of the insurance between land and water-carriage. Were there no other communication between those two places, therefore, but by land-carriage, as no goods could be transported from the one to the other, except such whose price was very considerable in proportion to their weight, they could carry on but a small part of that commerce which at present subsists between them, and consequently could give but a small part of that encouragement which they at present mutually afford to each other's industry. There could be little or no commerce of any kind between the distant parts of the world.
- Wealth of Nations, Vol. 1, Book 1, Ch. 3

 

[Iron Penguin]

Control of the Navy does not necessarily = control of maritime trade. Creation isn't Early Modern Earth, after all. I imagine the houses have their own trading vessels and possibly merchant navies; if Peleps (or any other hosue) wanted to attack a rival house's trading ships they'd have to do so covertly, possibly through privateers. I imagine the Empress wouldn't look too kindly on any Peleps captain overstepping their authority and using their ship for their own personal ends.