Disapointed with the Fair Folk

Kyeudo

Kyeudo

One Thousand Club
I've had Graceful Wicked Masks for a while now, but I've never really used it. Every time I read it, it seems like a let down. They've got a great amount of material on how the Fair Folk interact among themselves, and that is good quality. However, when it comes to dealing with Creation, things seem to be all wonky.


First among my pet peeves is that Behemoths aren't nearly awesome enough. A Behemoth has the same traits as whoever is attuned to it plus a handful of mutations and bonus dots? Seriously? A Behemoth is supposed to be an absolute terror, something that the Exalted look at as a challenge. As written, they aren't much more threatening than a Fair Folk Noble.


My second problem is the Raksha seem to almost entirely lack combat Charms for use in Creation. Where's the Raksha Charms to defend themselves from an Exalt's sword? What Charms do they have to cause an Exalt to even bother using a perfect defense against them? As written, they only challenge heroic mortals. A well-built God-Blooded would curb stomp them. Yet these are supposed to be the same Fair Folk that ravaged Creation and required the activation of the Sword of Creation to stop their terrible crusade.


Third, they seem to alternate between being practically helpless against Creation-born and being unstopable when in the Wyld. A Fair Folk Noble shapes a horde of hobgoblins and sets them on a Solar and all the Solar has to do is spend a point of Willpower to ignore them? How does that make sense? Yet if that same Fair Folk Noble makes a Sword Shaping attack against the Solar, the Solar must either have Integrity Protecting Prana or else there goes anything important he may have possession of.


I could probably go on for a while (Fae-Blooded can't really use any Raksha Charms!, etc.) but I think I'll call that rant good for now. Anyone else bugged by these things?
 
Some of your points are valid, some are not, almost none will be once Holden's magnum opus errata to the GWM hits. The document is up to 70 pages he says.


Fae don't have many attack charms, but they can have an accuracy of 19 dice before any charms, and they do have a few charms that augment attacks. They also get arbitrarily high DVs easily, as well as a (situationally expensive) defense against unblockable attacks. They can also get 5 penalty free attack flurries, also without spending any motes, and with a strength of 7, even without high damage weapons you can threaten. Most god-bloods fall against the optimized fae, and up-optimized DBs can as well. Nobles float nebulously around the bottom of the power tiers.


On the behemoth point, you are confusing fae behemoths and Behemoths. The latter being unique super beasts, while the former being fae artifacts.


The book is wonky, don't get me wrong, but not as far off as you think. They do suffer from lack of utility in Creation, which is what is going to be given to them, IN SPADES, in the errata. Every single charm will have a use in the wyld and creation, because each charm is going to actually be two charms. Their mote pools are the worst part, since the person writing the charms didn't think the 10m for an assumption were committed.
 
magnificentmomo said:
On the behemoth point, you are confusing fae behemoths and Behemoths. The latter being unique super beasts, while the former being fae artifacts.
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The setting doesn't make any distinction between the two. Sure, I can believe that fae-made behemoths are weaker than other such monstrosities, but I don't think a creature about as dangerous as an armored mammoth deserves the designation of "Behemoth".
 
Kyeudo said:
I could probably go on for a while (Fae-Blooded can't really use any Raksha Charms!, etc.) but I think I'll call that rant good for now. Anyone else bugged by these things?
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Yes. Holden. :!: Which is why he's writing a DotFA style total conversion errata of the Fair Folk Charmset. Check the thread 'Graceful Wicked Agony' at the WW forums.
 
Kyeudo said:
The setting doesn't make any distinction between the two. Sure, I can believe that fae-made behemoths are weaker than other such monstrosities, but I don't think a creature about as dangerous as an armored mammoth deserves the designation of "Behemoth".
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Actually, they do. They may not make it very clearly, but they do. I will have to find the specific citation. There are Behemoths made by Primordials and spawned by the wyld, and then there are fae behemoths.
 
This actually answers a question I had on where the Fair Folk power level ranked in the scheme of things. Reading about them they seemed much more impressive but I really don't have a good working knowledge of the game.
 
I trust Holden enough to hold my daughter while skiing down the slopes of Mount Mostath, but I do hope he doesn't make the Fair Folk too powerful. To note: The Fair Folk are effectively limitless. Yes, there are limits to the number that are actually interested in attacking Creation, but there should still be a massive number of them ready and willing to take on the Exalted and Creation itself. As such, if powered up too much, they would become a serious threat, beyond even what the Deathlords represent.
 
As such' date=' if powered up too much, they would become a serious threat, beyond even what the Deathlords represent.[/quote']
And?


The Fae are supposed to be really fricking scary. They ALREADY almost destroyed Creation once, and they only failed because of the Scarlet Empress. If they could ever mass the numbers of the Balorian Crusade again (though, as I recall, that's supposed to be pretty unlikely now), it SHOULD be something that is beyond epic in scope. If you ask me, the Fae threat gets downplayed too much.
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My main concern about this book was why they wrote it to be a playable splat. Surely every game would have got vast amounts more use out of it if it was designed for a ST planning to use them as antagonists?
 
Brickwall said:
As such' date=' if powered up too much, they would become a serious threat, beyond even what the Deathlords represent.[/quote']
And?


The Fae are supposed to be really fricking scary. They ALREADY almost destroyed Creation once, and they only failed because of the Scarlet Empress. If they could ever mass the numbers of the Balorian Crusade again (though, as I recall, that's supposed to be pretty unlikely now), it SHOULD be something that is beyond epic in scope. If you ask me, the Fae threat gets downplayed too much.
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I don't think the Fair Folk should be considered on the same level as the Deathlords. Each Fair Folk should be considerably weaker than a single Exalt. Collectively, they can be strong, but if they are individually stronger, then an infinite number of lethal opponents thrown at a finite number of weaker opponents is going to lead to Creation being destroyed during the First Age.


There are only 13 Deathlords. Imagine if there were a potentially unlimited number of them.
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There aren't infinite raksha, there is the possibility of infinite raksha, but there is a finite number of them. Holden, or someone in a thread that Holden agreed with, said that they are like planets in the universe, there is the possibility of infinite planets, but there is a finite number.


Then there is also the too oft noted fact that the fae are nowhere near organized in any way, and even when they are organized, you can barely call it that.


Sorry I haven't delivered on the citation promised earlier, I haven't had the chance to look through my GWM for it.
 
magnificentmomo said:
There aren't infinite raksha, there is the possibility of infinite raksha, but there is a finite number of them. Holden, or someone in a thread that Holden agreed with, said that they are like planets in the universe, there is the possibility of infinite planets, but there is a finite number.
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If we consider how fast a single starting Noble Raksha in control of a five dot Freehold can regain Essence, he can pop out another Noble once every 5-6 hours without much strain as long as he builds for it using Ecstatic Reproduction Style. That's five new Nobles a day. Finite may their numbers be, but it may as well be functionally infinite when you consider how fast they can replace casualties.
 
Also, the ability to churn out Raksha by the action is one of the things being addressed in the Errata. When fluff doesn't make sense with presented crunch, usually there is a problem with the crunch, sometimes the fluff.
 
Seraphina said:
Maybe we'll get a new level of Fair Folk above Nobles and unshaped but much more rare.
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i think they are called primordials


By Wordman


Submitted on 03 Jun 2008 at 06:37:09 PM EDT


Last updated on 03 Jun 2008 at 06:39:05 PM EDT


Category: General


In the mythology of Exalted, the starting point is the Primordials, “alone in the churning chaos of unshaped Essenceâ€. The supposition being that both these titans and the chaos had always been there, with no beginning. But suppose the story really started earlier, with only the eternal chaos, and no Primordials in sight…


Out in the Deep Chaos, anything can happen. Really. Anything. On a long enough time scale even the immensely improbable will pop into existence. And chaos has been around a long, long time (though not quite forever). From the seething potential, all sorts of exotica have come and gone in the chaos: intelligent bugs made of glass, humans with full consciousness, a thousand miles of self-aware clockwork that could perfectly tell the future. Consciousness and intellect are inevitable given nearly infinite possibility over nearly infinite time.


The problem is that complexity is fragile and chaos is, well, chaotic. No sooner does it create than it mutates and destroys. Wonders both subtle and gross form and perish in an instant, perhaps even at the same time. Over the eternity of chaos, whole civilizations and lived and died in brief instants, none resilient enough to resist the forces that created them.


But, eventually, infinite chaos must give rise to consciousness that, once shaped, can resist being unmade. To survive, such consciousness would necessarily need to be not only from chaos, but of it as well, a local pattern of awareness and purpose within the bedlam. Over time, many such consciousnesses arise. Most are not perfect, lasting only minutes, some for weeks or years. A few, however, can hold out for much, much longer. Since random creation of simple patterns is more probable than complex ones, most of the consciousnesses that survive are more simplistic. While rudimentarily aware, most are not what we would call intelligent, driven by some basic motivation, but not thought and often without form. For the sake of easy reference, we attach a label to these “rudimentary consciousnesses with primal motivationâ€. We’ll call them graces.


For a very long time, existence continued as “chaos plus gracesâ€. As time went on, the number of graces increased. Some grace patterns are simply more probable than others, so became more common, but thousands, millions of varieties exist. A small handful of patterns became so plentiful that, in modern times, they are given specific names: ring, sword, cup and staff. Another type, however, is special. In addition to consciousness, its pattern represents identity and self-awareness. This type of grace, the heart grace, is hardier than most, and becomes plentiful solely by outlasting others of its kind.


As the number of graces increases, the likelihood of their interacting increases as well. Most of the time, two will collide and move on their way. Sometimes, two touch and annihilate each other back into chaos. Rarely, they change each other or merge, usually for the worse, eventually both degrading, but not always. And once in a great while, they bind together, interacting to become something greater than the sum of its parts. Usually, these bindings would disassociate sooner or later (mostly sooner). Some might be lucky enough to incorporate a third grace, though this tended to sever a pair much, much more often than form a triplet.


When one of the pair was a heart grace, the resulting entity sometimes developed a rather amazing ability: it could shape the chaos. Not very well, of course, and often without genuine thought, but for the first time, the potential of chaos became guided by something other than random chance. Such pairs were often unstable, sometimes even unshaping themselves, but those that survived were those who could harness this ability to their own advantage. This was not the animalistic type of survival we might expect; there is no competition for food or mates or territory. What the pairs would shape can better be described as stories or narrative. Not being sophisticated beings, these stories were extremely simplistic, often one word concepts such as “fear†or “hope†or “blue†or simply a name.


This state of affairs continued for a long time, with loose graces, pairs, and eventually triplets and even quadruplets floating in the chaos, trying to make their mark, in their own inexplicable way. Sometimes, when two of these entities came close, they would reach out and try to alter each others stories. Most of the time, they would react to each other briefly and be on their way. Sometimes, however, the interaction of their stories would change them. Maybe their stories mixed in a way that cause them to join. Maybe one’s story defeated the other and pulled its remnants into itself. Again, often the consequences were disastrous, creating a new, unstable state that reverted back into chaos. Sometimes graces were merely rearranged. But very rarely, what emerged was a stable entity containing five graces. And once this happened a few times, everything started to change very quickly.


Beings with five graces were vastly more capable than what had come before, particularly if one of these graces was a heart grace and especially if the others were ring, sword, cup and staff. Usually both self-aware and intelligent, these beings had radically more advanced abilities to shape chaos and a far greater sense of purpose and drive. These beings are such an advancement of existence, they need their own label to identify them. In modern times, they are called raksha or fair folk, but these entities are far removed from the beings these labels conjure up now. For one, they had not been tainted by Creation yet, still creatures of deep chaos.


The vast majority of these living narrative forces began to divert themselves, largely with each other. No longer alone, they talked and fought and planned and dreamed. They organized and disorganized, formed societies and ripped them apart. Few of them, however, realized how they were formed, and most of those who did couldn’t care less. Content in their current state, they didn’t consider anything more. And so it went for them, over the aeons, becoming the fair folk we know now.


But meanwhile, not all were content with this. Some, either through accident or choice, continued to evolve, leaving their five-graced brethren behind. Some held on to the graces they had, but pursued more and more power. Others absorbed more graces. Some did both. In nearly all cases, the being grew larger, often transcending the notion of “entity†and becoming closer to the notion of “locationâ€. They became inscrutable, even to the raksha, with an understanding of chaos the defied comprehension. Many went mad, wandering the seething chaos to purposes known only to them. Others were solidly rational, but with motivations so alien that it appeared as madness. Once reaching this state, a new label is needed, and these are called the unshaped. Those that survive usually do so because, within them, graces they absorb form into “guiding intelligencesâ€, subsidiary entities much like the raksha themselves.


Most of the unshaped remain so. Occasionally they absorb narrative waypoints, even raksha, and may wax or wane in power. Sometimes raksha manage to impose their will on the unshaped, gaining portions of it for themselves. On rare occasions, an unshaped might even devolve, splitting back into raksha or more exotic combinations of graces. Sometimes new guiding intelligences arise or fall. In general, though, their unshaped nature does not change.


Over long periods, however, a very few of these unshaped became something of an ecosystem, within which their own evolution continued. As they traveled and grew, their guiding intelligences incorporated new, exotic graces still floating in the chaos. Sometimes whole new intelligences would be absorbed, or would even arise spontaneously within the unshaped. While it is futile to compare the unshaped to the human mind, each of the guiding intelligences within an unshaped tended to focus on a certain aspect of the unshaped’s “psycheâ€, for lack of a better word. By chance, sometimes a guiding intelligence would absorb just the right combination of graces and, in a moment of transcendence, become the perfect embodiment of such an aspect. When this happens in a way that remains stable, the capabilities of the guiding intelligence increase greatly, and a new label is needed. Though the term is somewhat cumbersome, we call these secondary souls.


As time goes on, more and more guiding intelligences evolve into secondary souls. Such an advanced unshaped might have dozens of such souls, but it still remains unshaped, for while its guiding intelligence is evolving, it itself is not. With so many secondary souls (and, usually, still evolving guiding intelligences as well) within it, differences often arise between them. Almost always, this leads to conflict within the unshaped and, very often, this leads quickly to its demise. Often alliances are formed between the souls and standoffs and wars of attrition can halt the development of an unshaped forever. In rare cases, though, there is a perfect harmony between a collection of seven secondary souls, when they align with each other in a way that each of them has a very specific role. When souls that protect, gratify, define, communicate, express, reflect and understand a shared essential nature, they become greater than the sum of their parts and form a primary soul.


When a primary soul forms within the unshaped, its secondary souls that are not part of the new primary soul are usually either quickly defeated or attempt to form into primary souls of their own. This almost always fails, with the souls being the wrong types or otherwise incompatible. In such cases, usually the primary soul eliminates the secondary souls, or lets them remain, but prevents the formation of another primary soul. The secondary souls can still oppose the primary soul and, very rarely, can dissolve it, but the primary soul’s sense of self is extremely strong, and usually attempts to rule the unshaped with an iron fist. The most likely result is an unshaped containing a single ruling primary soul, several secondary souls, and shattered remnants of lesser entities within itself. Such an entity is powerful, but still finite, and generally focused on a single sphere of influence or way of thinking. Such creatures are called shinma.


In some cases, two primary souls form roughly simultaneously. This usually ends badly for the unshaped, as the two primary souls usually fight to attrition and eventually split into two distinct shinma, or sometimes into scattered component pieces or even all the way back to chaos.


In very rare cases, however, three primary souls form within an unshaped. This can happen spontaneously, but more often is the result of one primary soul forming, then encouraging the development of others, accidentally or otherwise. It can also occur if the aforementioned unshaped with two primary souls happens to create or absorb a third, but this almost never happens. However it is done, once the unshaped has three primary souls, a fundamental change wracks it. Its awareness expands geometrically and its will becomes as undeniable as its ability to shape raw chaos to its every whim. It becomes, in short, a primordial.


Did the first primordial try to prevent the emergence of a second? Did it encourage the evolution of more? Did it become so surprised at its sudden potency that it dissolved back into chaos? None will ever know. Eventually though, over two dozen primordials evolved. All continued to collect graces and evolve more primary souls, some making 20 or more. Once ascended, a primordial could accelerate the process beyond random chance; it could do almost anything it wanted. Inevitably, however, the primordials had to test just how far “almost†went.


An old paradox about omnipotence states a conundrum: can a truly omnipotent being, something who can do anything, create a mountain so large that he himself cannot move it? If the answer is “yesâ€, then the being cannot be truly omnipotent, as he can’t move the mountain. If the answer is no, then he can’t be omnipotent either, since he can’t create the mountain. The primordials’ test of their own limits answered a similar question about their ability to create anything from the chaos: could they shape something that they themselves could not shape? Could their mastery of chaos create, in effect, non-chaos?


Thus, Creation was born.
 
Well that's a little higher on the food chain then I was thinking. It also lacks the fair folk flavor at that point and would be hard to get a GM to give you the go ahead to actually play. I was thinking more like a chosen of chaos something on the power level of a celestial exalted.
 
Eh, it's not so much that fair folk aren't powerful in my mind, it's that every single exalted has a long list of charms specifically designed as anti-fair folk banhammers. I don't think anything can be done about those, though.
 
When there are 300 Solars (Or less in modern days), 300 Lunars, 100 Sidereals, and an uncertain number of Dragonblooded around 20000 or so...and the Fair Folk are in millions most likely...


Nah, I don't think they need a serious upgrade. Frankly, a large enough force of them will ALREADY be serious trouble from simple mote attrition.
 
I have been playing a Fair Folk noble for a while now, and have to say: they are strong!


why? becouse they are never alone and have a HUGE list of mutation they can use.


there is the charm called AWAKENED DREAM MANUFACTURE.


every lvl of the charm basicly gives you a "create character" tool


from lvl 2, you get elite soldiers for 3 motes.... and if you make them permanent you can use them in creation, as if they wehere normal soldiers!


next lvl : Mortal HEROES!!!! they are very strong and with 3 of them you can easely kill a DB.


and now the Highes lvl...create GODBLOODED character.... if you use the boonus points for mutations, you can basicly build an army of sodiers that can ONLY fight, but that very well...


one of these mutants fought a dawn of my group and won..... and i had 15 more of these in elsowhere (becouse permanent things can be stored in elsewhere for good)


right now my group is a bit anoyed, becouse me, the fair folk seams as if im 100 times stronger than anyone else.


true, the problem about not having battle charms is bad.


but on the other hand, if you want to, you can have 19 dice of offense....and a DV of 16 and more....


and there there is the good old trick with "enlightened essence". becouse its a mutation, a fair folk can get it. if he can get it, he can get spirit charms (if you have a GOOD reason in your character story).


so i must say: i love my fair folk!! its very strong and a 1 man army (well...one man who can build an army in no time)
 
You can stop being disappointed now ^^


(You can be even less disappointed when the next Scroll of Errata hits in a few days)
 
Teln said:
Has the Scroll of Errata been fixed yet?
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Depends on what you mean by "fixed." I've gotten my hands on it and worked dark magics.
The results are here.


What Holden did to it may make the Fair Folk less disappointing, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't dark magics.
 
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