Creating Items/Artifacts

[Trueblood]

My group and I were discussing what options were available to speed the process up with the most obvious being the charm Craftsman Needs No Tools that allows a character to accomplish (Essence Rating X 3) hours of work for each hour  actually done. We were a bit conflicted about how this works and were hoping you guys might be able to give us some clarification.


Heavenly Forge, my Twilight Artificer, is trying to make a normal straight sword for his circlemate, the Zenith Azanthriel of the Moon, who has managed to yet again, somehow misplace his old one. With a resource value of 2, forging the sword would normally be a difficulty 2 undertaking, requiring raw materials worth resources 1 and 2 weeks to complete. How would using Craftsman Needs No Tools speed things up given that Heavenly Forge has an Essence Rating of 4 and is thus capable of doing 12 hours of work for each actually invested?


Any input would be much appreciated.

 

[Persell]

I work with eight working hours a day in my games. that means a project that takes you two weeks takes 14*8= 112 working hours to complete. That means, heavenly forge needs a bit over one working day (about 9 hours, I'd let him do it in eight just to be done with it) to compelete the sword.

 

[memesis]

the charm Craftsman Needs No Tools that allows a character to accomplish (Essence Rating X 3) hours of work for each hour  actually done.
...


requiring ... 2 weeks to complete.

2 weeks is 14 days.  14/12 comes to a little over 1 day of actual work.

 

[Trueblood]

So calculations would be based on estimated working hours rather than total hours in a day? For example, a day's work is considered 8 hours rather than 24 so a project that took 2 weeks would be take 112 hours rather than 336?

 

[The zombie cat]

I would let it be done in a day, but its an unusually long and tiring day. Your circle mate owes you for such.


Edward

 

[Trueblood]

I would let it be done in a day, but its an unusually long and tiring day. Your circle mate owes you for such.
Edward

I am only using the straight sword for illustration purposes with regard to the time requirement. I mean getting a straight sword, or any mundane weapon for that matter, isn't really that much of a concern as long as you have the resources to make the purchase (or in case you don't, you could always mug someone for either their weapon or their money). I would just like to know how others treat the quickening effect of Craftsman Needs No Tools.

 

[memesis]

I would just like to know how others treat the quickening effect of Craftsman Needs No Tools.

Well, is there something wrong with just dividing the expected working time for any crafting job by the listed rating (Essence x 3)?

 

[Trueblood]

I would just like to know how others treat the quickening effect of Craftsman Needs No Tools.

Well, is there something wrong with just dividing the expected working time for any crafting job by the listed rating (Essence x 3)?

That's just it, what is the raw number to divide? If the construction time for an item is 2 weeks for instance, does that mean that the total number of hours necessary to do it is (14 days X 24 hours in a day) 336 hours or is it (14 days X 8 average working hours a day) 112?

 

[Persell]

In first edition a working day used to be eight hours if the writers assumed a 24 hours day, they would have said something. But I think it would be rather unlogical to assume a 24 hours shift per day.

 

[Fruan]

It doesn't matter. If the 'standard' time is working 24 hours a day, and you divide it by essence x 3, you'll get how long it will then magically take working 24 hours a day. Similarly, if the 'standard' time is working 8 hours a day, and you divide it by essence x 3, you'll get how long it will magically take working 8 hours a day. This is very simple math.


The only unresolved thing is what percentage of the day the construction times given in the rules are. You may need to rule that for yourself. But as long as this is the amount of time dedicated to construction both before and after the magical time reduction, there are no problems at all.

 

[Persell]

It matters as soon as a character works more than the standard working time per day.

 

[Sherwood]

Dont forget that this is not a conversation about a typical craftsman, but an Exalted god.  If there is a important reason to get this item done in time, why not stay awake for a week straight, knowing your Stamina and Endurance roll will be just fine to make it?  That will seriously reduce the number of days, not the number of hours, of work time needed to finish said project.

 

[Persell]

Dont forget that this is not a conversation about a typical craftsman, but an Exalted god.  If there is a important reason to get this item done in time, why not stay awake for a week straight, knowing your Stamina and Endurance roll will be just fine to make it?  That will seriously reduce the number of days, not the number of hours, of work time needed to finish said project.

Exactly!

 

[memesis]

That's just it, what is the raw number to divide? If the construction time for an item is 2 weeks for instance, does that mean that the total number of hours necessary to do it is (14 days X 24 hours in a day) 336 hours or is it (14 days X 8 average working hours a day) 112?

The raw number is how long it would have taken you ordinarily.  That's working hours in a day.  While a godlike craftsman might be able to work longer hours, that is not the assumed default.  Figure 8 hours a day if it's important.  However, you can generally rely on "days" instead of figuring out hours for anything but the most trivial projects, unless your characters are working under time pressure.  If you find yourself thinking "well, this will take me 7.65 hours, meaning I can cram in 0.35 hours of Combo practice...", you are probably overcomplicating the system.


As for computing the time requirements for crafting itself, the first paragraph under "Create Item/Artifact" on p. 133 of second edition gives good guidelines for Storytellers.

 

[Persell]

curious...


can craftsman need's no tools be used to build structures, or ships?


A solar probaly SHOULD be able to do such things with a powerful enough charm, but im not sure if craftsman nee'ds no tools is it.


If yes, do you think that cutting down trees is part of the "construction process" or not... if the solar activates it in a large forest...


Also do you think it can be used successfuly to cook, I know thats a dumbass question.

 

[Persell]

curious...


can craftsman need's no tools be used to build structures, or ships?


A solar probaly SHOULD be able to do such things with a powerful enough charm, but im not sure if craftsman nee'ds no tools is it.


If yes, do you think that cutting down trees is part of the "construction process" or not... if the solar activates it in a large forest...


Also do you think it can be used successfuly to cook, I know thats a dumbass question.

 

[memesis]

If yes' date=' do you think that cutting down trees is part of the "construction process" or not... [/quote']
2E p. 213: "The character still needs raw materials."


You need trees.  However, it seems reasonable to let you cut down your own trees (without tools, as usual) using the Charm.

Also do you think it can be used successfuly to cook

If you use Craft to resolve cooking in your game, then yes.  If not, you're on your own

 

[Trueblood]

curious...
can craftsman need's no tools be used to build structures, or ships?


A solar probaly SHOULD be able to do such things with a powerful enough charm, but im not sure if craftsman nee'ds no tools is it.


If yes, do you think that cutting down trees is part of the "construction process" or not... if the solar activates it in a large forest...


Also do you think it can be used successfuly to cook, I know thats a dumbass question.

There is further clarification on page 28 of Oadenol's Codex about just how Craftsman Needs No Tools works, it provides you with the equivalent of a basic if well-equipped, mundane workshop such a blacksmith's forge, carpenter's shop, weaver's loom or other similar set-up with all the necessary tools of the trade. It does impose a -2 penalty on artifact construction though.


Building structures or ships shouldn't be a problem, rather it's going to be being properly prepared and provisioned for the task in terms of raw material.


On that note, a new craft charm - Words-As-Workshop Method, a more powerful version of Craftsman Needs No Tools but without the speed boost, provides more advanced tools, alchemical substances and common materials. It also allows the constructions of Artifacts at no penalty.

 

[The zombie cat]

I would let it be done in a day, but its an unusually long and tiring day. Your circle mate owes you for such.
Edward

I am only using the straight sword for illustration purposes with regard to the time requirement. I mean getting a straight sword, or any mundane weapon for that matter, isn't really that much of a concern as long as you have the resources to make the purchase (or in case you don't, you could always mug someone for either their weapon or their money). I would just like to know how others treat the quickening effect of Craftsman Needs No Tools.

And I was using your example to show that I play a bit fast and loose with the rounding of the times.


On the subject of using CNNT to build a ship in a forest. I would say that the time to build a ship assumes you have dressed seasoned timber to work with. You would need to take an additional dramatic action to turn trees into seasoned timber, a poses that normally takes 3 months, this can be reduced using CNNT.


Alternatively you could take the penalty for starting with sub standard materials


Edward

 

[Trueblood]

On the subject of using CNNT to build a ship in a forest. I would say that the time to build a ship assumes you have dressed seasoned timber to work with. You would need to take an additional dramatic action to turn trees into seasoned timber, a poses that normally takes 3 months, this can be reduced using CNNT.


Alternatively you could take the penalty for starting with sub standard materials


Edward

Hm... I'd agree that activating Craftsman Needs No Tools would be a valid use in the actual shipbuilding process but I'm a bit iffy on using it for seasoning, curing or something similar that seems more tied to the actual passage of time rather than super speed, proper equipment or heightened efficiency. But hey, that may just be me. As it is, it seems like the charm should be able to do that right? Producing dyed cloth or cured leather for instance could be just some of the mundane applications.

 

[The zombie cat]

If it helps modern lumber yards have equipment to speed the seasoning of wood, this equipment takes the form of a heated drying shed.


Edward

 

[memesis]

I'm a bit iffy on using it for seasoning, curing or something similar that seems more tied to the actual passage of time rather than super speed, proper equipment or heightened efficiency.

It's up to the Storyteller.  Whatever they feel is best should work, but... it really can go either way.


Obak knelt before the raw strips of leather.  He was already aglow with Essence, and his anima banner was on display for all to see.  His tribe didn't mind; he'd driven back their worst foes and led them to prosperous lands.  They simply watched, thinking that if he was a demon, then a demon who governed well was better than Heaven's apathy.  Behind Obak, the shaman of the tribe was gathering his ritual implements and mumbling prayers of thanks to the creatures whose leather the tribe had taken.  The Solar smiled to himself.  Let the priest pray - and let the tanner tan.


Deftly he waved both glowing hands over the strips, infusing them with the power of the sun magnified a thousand-fold.  A few rapid hand-motions showered a rain of the tribe's salt down over the skins, arranging it in a flawlessly perfect pattern for the leather.  And without knowing its true name or significance, Obak turned his hands in the Seasons-Passing Mudra, the hand sign made by the lesser servitors of the Five Elemental Dragons when control of the seasons passes from one spirit court to the other.  He knew only that in this way, a craftsman could achieve a miracle.


There would be no putrid smell; there would be no unpleasant remnants.  The leathers that Obak presented to his tribe a few days later were truly the work of a god.

 

[Trueblood]

Could a craftsman purchase a normal item - say an average shortsword, and reforge it into an excellent or fine version (perfect versions would be impossible as of course they would require better raw material in the first place)? If so, what applicable bonuses would there be as opposed to building it from scratch (bonus automatic successes perhaps or drastically reduced construction time)?

 

[memesis]

Could a craftsman purchase a normal item - say an average shortsword, and reforge it into an excellent or fine version (perfect versions would be impossible as of course they would require better raw material in the first place)? If so, what applicable bonuses would there be as opposed to building it from scratch (bonus automatic successes perhaps or drastically reduced construction time)?

Take the following link with a grain of salt, it's the best I could find.  However, for fantasy purposes, it probably has more detail than you want...


http://wiki.battlemaster.org/index.php/Science_of_the_Smith


Short answer: yes.  My off-the-cuff estimates would be to cut the normal forging time in half to upgrade a sword one 'grade' (normal to excellent), with no improvement for two (normal to perfect) on the grounds that you're better off just starting over and all the old sword gives you is a template and whatever raw materials you can salvage from it.

 

[Trueblood]

Thanks Memesis, the link was quite... comprehensive.


Another question, in cases where supplies are either hard to obtain or prohibitively expensive (as is usually the case with a highly mobile campaign spanning creation) is it possible to use Craftsman Needs No Tools to melt down items to use as raw materials in construction?