City of Gem

[Kyeudo]

So we need an unrelated subsystem to compensate for a counter-intuitive core system? That's also bad game design.


EDIT: I mean this in terms of "One specific merit fixing one specific instance of stupid in the rules does not justify the entire subsystem."

You just don't want to admit that there can exist effects that should be availible to all characters that are not suitible for representation as Charms. Merits don't really stick out that much and as far as I am aware they are not considered terribly broken. Maybe I'm wrong and Brutal Attack is part of some incredible build that manages to make a Dex of 1 work out incredibly in a combat monkey, but if so I haven't heard it yet.


What I hear more about is people taking a bajillion points of Flaws and using them to start the game at Essence 5, the entire Melee tree, and a super-kill-paranoia Combo without suffering hardly any really mechanical problems. While I exagerate, the major complaint has always been about Flaws that don't mean terribly much (like Permanent Caste Mark, where I just always wear a headband to solve the problems it causes) to get concrete benefits.

 

[FluffySquirrel]

So we need an unrelated subsystem to compensate for a counter-intuitive core system? That's also bad game design.
EDIT: I mean this in terms of "One specific merit fixing one specific instance of stupid in the rules does not justify the entire subsystem."

.. except they're not stupid, or counter intuitive.. you -should- have to take time to draw extra, new weapons during combat, and you should also take a penalty to offhand use.. as not everyone is ambidextrous.


I see no flaw with having a system modelling things which not everyone can do.. especially when they help you as a player to handle things mechanically. The flaw is not with the model, which is accurate, the merit just happens to make it simpler to calculate flurry pools, which is a handy sub benefit.


I won't deny that -some- merits/flaws are broken however, but just because some are, or people abuse the system, makes it wrong by default, they help you add further detail to your character.. sure, you could just take lower/higher perception or such as you suggest, but that doesn't accurately model having short sight, it penalises -all- your sight equally.. if anything, your fix seems the counter-intuitive one to me.

 

[Thanqol]

You just don't want to admit that there can exist effects that should be availible to all characters that are not suitible for representation as Charms. Merits don't really stick out that much and as far as I am aware they are not considered terribly broken. Maybe I'm wrong and Brutal Attack is part of some incredible build that manages to make a Dex of 1 work out incredibly in a combat monkey, but if so I haven't heard it yet.

I'm arguing that in most cases they can be replaced with specialities, charms or other point combinations - they can be replaced by using the core system, which means they're pointless.

What I hear more about is people taking a bajillion points of Flaws and using them to start the game at Essence 5, the entire Melee tree, and a super-kill-paranoia Combo without suffering hardly any really mechanical problems. While I exagerate, the major complaint has always been about Flaws that don't mean terribly much (like Permanent Caste Mark, where I just always wear a headband to solve the problems it causes) to get concrete benefits.

Indeed; the general consensus seems to range from "Benign and useless" to "Broken".

I won't deny that -some- merits/flaws are broken however, but just because some are, or people abuse the system, makes it wrong by default, they help you add further detail to your character.. sure, you could just take lower/higher perception or such as you suggest, but that doesn't accurately model having short sight, it penalises -all- your sight equally.. if anything, your fix seems the counter-intuitive one to me.

Having a 2 dice penalty to close range vision is equally modelled by having a two dice speciality in hearing. If you're perception 5 Awareness 5 with short sighted you're rolling 8 dice which is still 2x as much as the average mortal, meaning that your short sightedness is actually pointless. If you're perception 2 awareness 0 then you wouldn't be succeeding at close range vision rolls anyway so it's free bonus points. Broken.


So far we've got two merits, Ambidextrous and Quick Draw, which are not easily replaceable with the core rules. These can be replaced with other parts of the core rules (Call the Blade or paired short daiklaves). The merits and flaws system does not justify it's existence for those two merits. Heroic mortals can deal with the one lost dice with only minor inconvenience, although I'll give you Quick Draw.


Do we have anything else that can't be easily replicated by the core rules?

 

[Brickwall]

Do we have anything else that can't be easily replicated by the core rules?

Pretty much all Merits can be replicated by magic, whether core magic or reasonable custom magic. However, for the sake of heroic mortals, here's a list of those that can't be easily replicated without magic.


Fleet of Foot: That's right, kids. Short of increasing your Dexterity, you can't actually up your combat movement speed (specialties can help Dramatic Actions though)


Omnidexterity


Pain Tolerance: No way to ignore wound penalties (a Resistance specialty in pain-related stuff never comes into play under core rules)


Selective Conception (you didn't ask about Merits that are sensible, just ones that couldn't be replicated)


Common Sense


Esoteric Craft


Experienced


Extra Favored Ability


Jack of All Trades


True Love


All of the Background Merits


Brutal Attack


Awakened Essence and all Essence-awakening-related Merits


Special Sense


I'm sure there's one or two of those that can be replicated and I just haven't thought of how, but that list is pretty solid.


I should note that I'm not a big fan of Merits or Flaws. I'm just answering your question.

 

[Mr. S]

Fleet of Foot: That's right, kids. Short of increasing your Dexterity, you can't actually up your combat movement speed (specialties can help Dramatic Actions though)


Omnidexterity


Pain Tolerance: No way to ignore wound penalties (a Resistance specialty in pain-related stuff never comes into play under core rules)


Selective Conception (you didn't ask about Merits that are sensible, just ones that couldn't be replicated)


Common Sense


Esoteric Craft


Experienced


Extra Favored Ability


Jack of All Trades


True Love


All of the Background Merits


Brutal Attack


Awakened Essence and all Essence-awakening-related Merits


Special Sense


I'm sure there's one or two of those that can be replicated and I just haven't thought of how, but that list is pretty solid.


I should note that I'm not a big fan of Merits or Flaws. I'm just answering your question.

I hope this doesn't sound snarky, but can we just be honest and admit maybe there are some things that mortals just shouldn't be able to do in exalted? At least, in the case of things like Extra Favored Ability, Omnidexterity, Esoteric Craft and probably Selective Contreception. I can't see any real situation where a mortal could reasonably be accomplishing those feats. I'm not saying they're all junk, but c'mon is it really okay for a mortal to be slinging chakram from their toes?


Also, on the complete other side of the coin, but as far as the extra merits required for sorcery/necromancy and supernatural martial arts are just a little too costly to be reasonable? I mean, it's not as if having an essence three enlightened mortal with five dots in occult is easy to start with, much less the cost of the individual sorceries (and the plot work required to get initiation). Do we really need ANOTHER merit to make this work? It's not as if terrestrial martial arts and sorcery are so good they'd be game breaking in a mortals game (at least, in the ones I've run/played in).


Mostly I'm cool with the merits (it's the flaws to which I direct most of my hate), but there's some that are really begging for a houserule.

 

[Kyeudo]

Having a 2 dice penalty to close range vision is equally modelled by having a two dice speciality in hearing. If you're perception 5 Awareness 5 with short sighted you're rolling 8 dice which is still 2x as much as the average mortal, meaning that your short sightedness is actually pointless. If you're perception 2 awareness 0 then you wouldn't be succeeding at close range vision rolls anyway so it's free bonus points. Broken.

A two die specialty in Hearing doesn't cut it to model nearsightedness. Only your eyesight is poor. Your sense of taste, touch, smell, AND hearing are just fine. So, unless you propose taking 8 Specialties to model sometimes poor vision, that Flaw just needs some reexamination at the mechanical level.

I hope this doesn't sound snarky, but can we just be honest and admit maybe there are some things that mortals just shouldn't be able to do in exalted? At least, in the case of things like Extra Favored Ability, Omnidexterity, Esoteric Craft and probably Selective Contreception. I can't see any real situation where a mortal could reasonably be accomplishing those feats. I'm not saying they're all junk, but c'mon is it really okay for a mortal to be slinging chakram from their toes?

In setting, there is an entire race of mortals in the East with prehensile feet. There are people in real life who can write five seperate sentances in five seperate languages at the same time (one pen in each hand, one in each foot, and one in their mouth). I think Omnidexterity is more than permissable.


Esoteric Craft doesn't really make sense as a Merit to me, since I've never limited a mortal to the mundane Crafts. A mortal just has no reason to have dots in Craft(Glamour). Back in the First Age, I'm sure there were plenty of technicians though that had dots in Craft(Magitech) so they could service warstriders and transforming couches, so if someone can find a backstory reason to know Craft(Fate), why not? It's not going to wreck your game.


Extra Favored Ability seems quite appropriate for a mortal with an especially broad range of talents, but I will say that Selective Conception is unsuited. It's unsuited for anyone. How can you ever have mental control of your own fertillity?

Also, on the complete other side of the coin, but as far as the extra merits required for sorcery/necromancy and supernatural martial arts are just a little too costly to be reasonable? I mean, it's not as if having an essence three enlightened mortal with five dots in occult is easy to start with, much less the cost of the individual sorceries (and the plot work required to get initiation). Do we really need ANOTHER merit to make this work? It's not as if terrestrial martial arts and sorcery are so good they'd be game breaking in a mortals game (at least, in the ones I've run/played in).


Mostly I'm cool with the merits (it's the flaws to which I direct most of my hate), but there's some that are really begging for a houserule.

I agree. Why is there a Merit needed to learn Martial Arts Charms? Why does it require far more to get than most initial Terrestrial Martial Arts Charms? How in the world are you supposed to make a mortal sorcerer with a merit that expensive? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Virjigorm]

A few small houserules can make the merit/flaw system mostly obsolete. As it stands, it is well and truly broken. Merits cost points, and so I feel they are sometimes ok. Flaws generate points out of story fodder. I disagree with this strongly, as any good character should have enough depth and background to generate storylines anyway, and penalizing players who achieve this without qualifying for flaws is stupid. Here are a few things I do instead of allowing merits and flaws in my games:


1. Well written, creative backstories for new characters will earn the player an exp bonus at character creation. This usually ranges from about 5-10 points when I give it out.


2. In a system which ignores the effectiveness of a helmet, are you seriously going to levy an off-hand penalty?! I ignore off-hand penalties and will allow a weapon to be wielded with a non-standard limb or maneuver with a good stunt. At that point, rather than losing dice by shooting your bow with your feet, you gain some.


3. I allow players to write all manner of things into their character backgrounds. You want a dark secret? It's all yours, but I'm certainly not giving you extra points for having dirt on the Perfect!


4. Anything that must be compensated for with point costs is represented by dot placement or a version of Adversarial Backgrounds offered in other White Wolf products. Debts in lieu of Resources, for example. Some merits have balanced costs, and in some cases I allow these to function normally, but not often.


5. When it comes to physical defect Flaws, I never allow these under any circumstances. It does not make sense to me that the Gods would Exalt someone with a humpback and poor vision, but not deign to repair these flaws at the time of Exaltation. Want to be horribly maimed as a part of your backstory? Congrats, you earned an Exaltation and the divine healing that comes with it. You're certainly allowed to keep the scars if you want, at no mechanical value.

 

[Kyeudo]

5. When it comes to physical defect Flaws, I never allow these under any circumstances. It does not make sense to me that the Gods would Exalt someone with a humpback and poor vision, but not deign to repair these flaws at the time of Exaltation. Want to be horribly maimed as a part of your backstory? Congrats, you earned an Exaltation and the divine healing that comes with it. You're certainly allowed to keep the scars if you want, at no mechanical value.

And if your backstory is that an Abyssal took your arm with Brutal Maiming Onslaught after your Exaltation?

 

[Brickwall]

I'm not saying they're all junk' date=' but c'mon is it really okay for a mortal to be slinging chakram from their toes?[/quote']
Why not? There's probably a few people who could train themselves to do that sort of thing. And that's in the real world. Heroic mortals in Exalted are able to accomplish feats that are, quite literally, not physically possible. It's called Stunting, and mortals get it too.


Also, I never said I approved of any of the Merits on that list. I just said they couldn't be well-modeled with the core rules.

 

[Teln]

And if your backstory is that an Abyssal took your arm with Brutal Maiming Onslaught after your Exaltation?

What happens to your bonus points if you have access to Medicine Charms and/or Prosthetics of Clockwork Elegance?


EDIT: Fixed a grammatical error.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

5. When it comes to physical defect Flaws, I never allow these under any circumstances. It does not make sense to me that the Gods would Exalt someone with a humpback and poor vision, but not deign to repair these flaws at the time of Exaltation. Want to be horribly maimed as a part of your backstory? Congrats, you earned an Exaltation and the divine healing that comes with it. You're certainly allowed to keep the scars if you want, at no mechanical value.

And if your backstory is that an Abyssal took your arm with Brutal Maiming Onslaught after your Exaltation?

Indeed. And it's not like Exaltation cures lost limbs. But doing something epic that loses such in the process might very well be worthy of Exaltation.


And just because there's ways to fix such doesn't mean everyone has access. Sure, I've got a Lunar girl with a missing eye and arm who didn't take the flaws. Why? Because she's a doctor specialized in biomagitech and surgery...so since I'd already fixed the problem it didn't effect me. However the Enlightened Mortal Hero I'm playing in a different game is missing his eye having sacrificed it in a thaumaturgical ritual that granted him an Enlightened Essence. It hinders him quite a bit, interfering with his abilities as an archer due to lost depth perception, and similarly leaves him open to those clever enough to attack from his blind side. As such, he does have the flaw. Which helps pay for his having an Enlightened Essence.

 

[Dezeroth]

i thought this was supposed to be about info on Gem

 

[Caelun_Niveus]

i thought this was supposed to be about info on Gem

It was. Then they told me where to find said info, so I asked about something else relevant to the character I had in mind. I somehow started a flame war it seems...

 

[Thanqol]

i thought this was supposed to be about info on Gem

It was. Then they told me where to find said info, so I asked about something else relevant to the character I had in mind. I somehow started a flame war it seems...

Welcome to the Internet.

 

[Kyeudo]

It was. Then they told me where to find said info' date=' so I asked about something else relevant to the character I had in mind. I somehow started a flame war it seems...[/quote']
This isn't a flame war. It's barely warm. A flame war generates so much vitriol, Infernals show up to start collecting pure yozi venom.

 

[Thanqol]

It was. Then they told me where to find said info' date=' so I asked about something else relevant to the character I had in mind. I somehow started a flame war it seems...[/quote']
This isn't a flame war. It's barely warm. A flame war generates so much vitriol, Infernals show up to start collecting pure yozi venom.

This is friendly. Unfriendly would be much more interesting.

 

[Caelun_Niveus]

Ok, so it's a Matchstick war then. : P


I honestly hope I can keep focus and put out a character sheet. Although I'm starting to reconsider what caste to make the Exalt, Twilight or Eclipse. Either way she will be a combat mage, though I was thinking as an Eclipse caste she would try everything to avoid conflict, or at least involving herself.

 

[Thanqol]

Ok, so it's a Matchstick war then. : P
I honestly hope I can keep focus and put out a character sheet. Although I'm starting to reconsider what caste to make the Exalt, Twilight or Eclipse. Either way she will be a combat mage, though I was thinking as an Eclipse caste she would try everything to avoid conflict, or at least involving herself.

Eclipse is best caste, man.


Pros/cons of Eclipse:


- Best anima abilities of any caste by a huge margin. Diplomatic immunity? Permanently seal oaths? Steal other people's charms?


- Ride and Sail are of dubious use unless you go heavily into custom charm territory (which you should). Can get some great mobility out of it, though. Especially if you take a jetbike/airship.


- Bureaucracy is best skill, period.


- Linguistics needs some creative play to use well, but can be devastating (tickertape parade of mind control, letterfragging guys)

 

[Caelun_Niveus]

Eclipse it is then.


Also, just finished reading chapter Five in the CoTD, and learned something awesome about Gem. As long as your character has decent Resources (And I had decided she would have at least four dots) any artifact or knowledge of any skill can be justified through the massive trade market that is the city. Perhaps someone in the Sun Market is selling weapons looted from Anathema killed in a Wyld Hunt. While sailing experience would be improbable, there may definitely be books on the subject being sold somewhere in the Bazaar. The sweet talking that got her rich would be why she exalted as an Eclipse cast (though I still need to work on her moment of second breath itself).


I just need to do some more reading, and I can start the Character Sheet.

 

[Thanqol]

Sailing experience ain't improbable just because you're in a desert. This is Exalted. Ever heard of sand boats?


Bear in mind the current downside of Ride is that the Familiar background highly sucks - but the Artifact background totally rules, and you can get jetbikes with Artifact. Alternatively, Allies for riding around some god of something.

 

[DasDom]

Or use an Lunar ally as amount...most badass mount ever!

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Sailing experience ain't improbable just because you're in a desert. This is Exalted. Ever heard of sand boats?
Bear in mind the current downside of Ride is that the Familiar background highly sucks - but the Artifact background totally rules, and you can get jetbikes with Artifact. Alternatively, Allies for riding around some god of something.

Heh. And a Eclipse can learn Sidereal charms. Like, say...Sidereal Ride charms that improve Familiars into gods. Literally.

 

[Caelun_Niveus]

Ok, one last question pretaning to this character. How would I go about dealing with non-artifact weapons made of Magical Materials. Like say a Orchidalum dagger, or a Moonsilver Halberd. Would/could they be a superior quality before applying MM bonuses? And how would I translate Resources cost into Artifact background?

 

[Brickwall]

Invalid question. Being made out of the Magical Materials makes something an artifact pretty much by default. You can't make an orichalcum dagger without making it a magic orichalcum dagger.


Also, buying artifacts with Resources is basically about 4-5 dots of resources for a 1-dot jade artifact, and something like 5-n/a dots for a 2-dot jade artifact or 1-dot non-jade artifact. I think that's what BoEP: DB said, anyway.

 

[Caelun_Niveus]

I guess by "non-artifact" I was trying to imply more-so "non-daiklave." And if I were to "buy" said weapon with artifact background, would it be equal to the Resource cost of the steel equivalent?