Chejop Kejak

[shifty]

Assuming you make Chejop Kejak a bad guy:


Myself, I dont think so.  I think good ol'e Ketchup is actually MORE intimidating as a behind the scenes, ruthless, plotter than as a bad ass martial artist.  I would make him a peerless astrologer (and interestingly, possibly the Sidereal under the biggest stain of the curse), a peerless Beurocrat, but a fighter?  Naah.  If I were running a Sidereal game, I would play up the ruthlessness from which he could casually sacrifice entire nation of people, up to his enemies.  I would play up and villainize him by making be someone who turns to sacrificing people as a leader way way too easy.  I would make him into a peerless machiavellian leader who not only inspires fanaticism (not blind, but reasoned and unquestioned loyalty) in his followers, but also one who wins over his enemies through sheer strategy.  You know, this is the guy who casually gets victories, but is not a tactical genius.  He gets them through unconventional means.  He wins over followers through guile, deceit, treachery, diplomacy, wars of attrition, trade, but never force. I would make him an evil Lord Vetinari, if you will.  Or a mcuh better done Darth Sidious.


You know where the climax of the series is not physically or magically beating the guy down, its actually getting to the point where he can be beat down.  Where actually beating the guy down consists of having his legions actually realize how evil he was.  


Incidentally it would seem that if you are spending all  your time plotting the course of the world, that your martial skills would suffer.  After all, generals of armies arent generally known for their combat skills, more for their planning skills.  They may have been great hand to hand comabatants in their youth, but nothing compared to a guy who spends the same amount of time doing nothing but butt whoopin'.


Thoughts?

 

[MOK]

I agree with you.  You have X ammount of time in a day... you can split it between multiple things, focus on certain things... etc.  The more you focus on martial aspects, the better you will be.  And other things will suffer.


Chejop is shown to the guy for behind the scenes meddling.  In order for him to be the best, he wouldnt have been able concentrate on martial arts so much as, say, Lupo does.  


Yes, I know how old he is.

 

[The Name Without Meaning]

I agree with everything you said about him being a super bureaucrat and manipulator. I agree that that should be his main power as an antagonist. But, you should note that his bureaucracy, the one he fiddles, manipulates and controls is the loom of fate, creation, the realm and heaven. To better understand these things he meditates on essence flows, does katas and generally keeps up his martial arts. Yes it's cool that he's mainly the ultimate manipulator, but once the PC's upset his plans, storm into his office and overturn his tea tray, he doesn't grovel or run, he says "That was most inelegant," whips off his over coat, assumes a stance of intimidating power and mystery and kicks the shit out of them. In my game anyhow.

 

[MOK]

Certainly he'd kick the shit out your PC's.  Hes essence 10.  


But I'd venture to think that someone out there could kick the shit out of PC's even more, who might be say essence 9 or something.  He doesn't muck with the loom too much, hes just old muscle.


He could kick Chejop's ass.

 

[Andrew02]

I think he should be pretty powerful, but not any MORE so than any OTHER Sidereal would be with a handful of Celestial styles, Sidereal styles, starmetal artifacts to overcome the defensive disadvantages of MA, and the  . . . unique . . . nature of Sidereal charms.


All Sidereal seem like they have to be Martial Artists . . . and since he's the head Sidereal . . . he's got to be like Mr. Miyagi or whoever on magical essence-enhanced 'roids.


Then again . . . that stuff didn't save Pai Mai when Elle Driver poisoned his fish heads . . .

Hes essence 10.

He is? To the best of my knowledge, he was one of those statless baddies you weren't supposed to mess with. Because, you know, he's statless. In WW parlance, that means uber-power. Divis Mal, ten thousand Pre-Crisis Superman Primes, etc.

 

[MOK]

Eh, now that I think of it, I dont know where I got that.  Maybe some dork of a roomate threw the statement out there, and im parrotting it without thinking. *shrug*


Btw.  im a totally trustworth source.  Believe me!

 

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

I recall someone saying, I think TSJ, Joseph or Jakk Bey on the old EC stating something along the lines of:


If you factor in how old Chejop Kejak is and how much xp he has according to the PG (around 10,000 I think) then max out his essence, attributes, abilities, colleges, all martial arts in print, all sidereal charms, give him specailties for every ability, give him Celestial Circle Sorcery and all spells in print plus whatever else I've not accounted for... He STILL Has left over experience!!!!

 

[Flagg]

I'm guessing Kejak is still a badass. Remember, he may run the world now, but he didn't always have that job. I'm sure the past 5,000 years have afforded him plenty of time to develop just about EVERYTHING within his scope of abilities, MA included.


-S

 

[shifty]

Where in the 5000 years would he find the time?  Have you ever been in a boardroom meeting?  Now imagine doing that for an entire country or realm.  Look, its like this.  Generals do not lead their men into battle and do the all the fighting for a reason.  They simply are not skilled at it like they were when they were younger.  Sure, when a general was a young officer, he did.   But as a general, no.  Its just the natural progression of things.  Save all the fighting for the people who do it on a routine basis.  Since you spend most of your life planning, now, you are not going to be as good a fighter as you were in yoru younger days.  People forget, you know.  And there is a lot of forgetting you could do in 5000 years.


This is not to say that Ketchup would be a pushover.  I just dont think he would be a bad ass in hth compared to say, an eldar Lunar who has been out in the Wyld for the past 5000 years.  


I tend to think that Ketchup spends more of his time planning and scheming and astrologying to help his planning and scheming.  I dont really see him doing many Katas.  Even then, you can punch at the air all you want, and think about nothing all you want, but it still is nowhere near the teacher that having someone try to bash your face in is.


...


After reading the posts on this forum it seems that a common assumption has been made, one that Exalted do not lose their skills with time and nonuse.  I tend to take the view that they do, unless you are using them.


Whether this is the right view has yet to be addressed.

 

[Jakk Bey]

According to the rules set, it isn't supported.  It could be House Ruled in your games certainly, but it's not addressed in canon--because the game is a High Fantasy setting, not  a dark and gritty, tables and figures kind of game.


Is our boy the ultimate HTH badass? Probably not--because he deals with other things, than just kicking the stuffing out of people.  But, I would use him as being better skilled and with more options than most, just because of his age, and you don't survive at this level of the game by being just a paper pusher. He's had plenty of time to train, plenty of reason to develop skill, to defend himself and his cause.  


He may have ridiculously esoteric Martial Arts developed specifically to assist him in social circles--channels of Essence that can be used to kill with a few words and gestures, or warp minds and perceptions to what he wants, because those are applications that come in handy. Pen and brush techniques that are both sublime and can be applied to both the sword as well as the brush, cutting through illusions and lies as easily as a blade through rice paper. Mudras that channel Essence to give words and gestures power equal to any spinning crescent kick.


I picture our boy wading into combat, not with a blade, but a gentle appearing posture, whispering and speaking with focus, gestures that precise and effortless, but a single fingertip that can turn a blade, or an arguement.  Shred with a gaze and phrase so cutting that wounds appear and both debates and armor are crushed and rendered useless.  Finding weakness not just in an arguement, but a form.  Not just picking up new forms, but a specific form that he's crafted just for himself, and he's not sharing with anyone.


Why? Because he's Exalted. Chosen of the Maidens. He's old, he's on top of the game, and has been for a long while, and has had the time and resources to stay there.  If harlots and courtesans can get a martial art, then the top bureacrat and schemer in the Creation and Yu-Shan is going to have a doozy all his own.

 

[shifty]

I guess the point that I am making, is that Chejop is SUCH a good plotter and schemer, that his underlings have defeated his enemies well before they ever got close to him.  So he has never really needed to be a good hth artist.  In fact, as Sun Tzu would say, "He beat his enemies well before the fight even started."  Chejop Kejak is so good, that he eliminates the circumstances that would cause the fight before anyone else is around.  That, too me, is a much more satisfyingly evil bad guy, than the standard, "OH you have fought your way through my ten levels of doom, now you must face my EVILKIDOFU style Ba ha ha ha."


If you really want to see what I am talking about, I see Chejop as an old Ender Wiggin from the book Enders Game.  Or read up on Lord Vetinari from Terry Pratchetts disc world series.  The first is excellent Sci fi, and Terry Pratchetts Disc World is perhaps the best defintion of High Fantasy ever.


I guess I have a minority opinion, but I dont really associate hth ability with coolness, or evil bad guy.  Evidentally, a lot of people think otherwise.  Not the biggest deal in the world.  I would say that the way Exalted written, by two of the most prominent authors it more caters to the hop chop jump bang crowd, so its natural that people would get attracted to that aspect.  


As I type this and think back to almost every bad guy movie and story in existance, they do follow that kind of plot.  The only exceptions that I know are Terry Pratchetts bad guys... Vorbis comes to mind.  So I guess I might be a little too discriminating.


As an aside, I also think the MA stand in do it all ability is bunk.  I know its not cannon, but come on... gunslinger cowboy martial arts and a courtesan style?

 

[Andrew02]

He's a good plotter and schemer NOW because he's several millenia old and lived through all sorts of bad shit. When he was a dapper little lad, fresh off of Exaltation, he would have had to go through the same required MA training shit EVERY OTHER SIDEREAL went through. The 'being able to plot so that no one even knows I'm the main villain' had to have come later, even if he was some sort of insidious plot prodigy who showed skill in excess of his years.


Maybe it's too many video games on my part, but I'm fucking tired of those behind the scenes Machaevellian king-making guys who are so good at plotting that you'll never know about them even if you pull back 5,000 layers of intrigue. That's the new "EVILKIDOFU AFTER 100 LEVELS OF EVIL DUNGEON!!!"


That's not very effective in my book at all. If Chejop is as good as shifty makes him out, your PCs will die innocuously out in some Northern icefield no one knows about, and no one will miss him. If you've done things right, the PCs won't even know it was Chejop's hand that was responsible, they'll just think you're a fucking prick who killed them with some stupid environmental hazard. If you've done your job right, your players won't come back to the table even if you desperately try to explain, "it was Chejop Kejak manipulating things behind the scenes!!! Best villain ever!"


Try reading George R. R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series. It'll have some villains that are not the insipid 8-bit video game villain you so detest and attribute to every author but the two you have a hard-on for. Fuck, just read some books you dipshit.

 

[Jakk Bey]

It comes down to a difference in the philosophy in the application of the martial arts discipline between the East and the West.


In the West you tend to see fighting arts compartmentalized. Boxing, savate, wrestling, those are forms, but not neccessarily an approach to life.


In the East, you see them as integrated paths. The meditation that you learn to focus has other applications than just beating ass and getting in sync with an opponent. The old saw about the tea master who was to be engaged in a duel and performed the tea ceremony one last time before going to meet his end showed his opponent a committement and focus that impressed him so much that the opponenent backed off the duel is one example.  Or the application of martial arts in wuxia and HK action flicks that go into other forms of activity, like the kung fu washing technique that Biao Yuen shows in 1981's Dreadnaught that defeats the nasty White Tiger Killer.  


Even as recently as the brush strokes that can be applied to sword fighting in Hero.  It's the approach that is disciplined and can then be applied to other areas. It is achieving such excellence and mastery in one element that can still be applied to others.  Be that dish washing fu--as Jackie Chan shows off in several films, clothes washing fu in Dreadnaught or studying the ebb and flow of chi in conversations, and using that focus and discipline to better understand the ebb and flow elsewhere.


The drive, I think, that has Martial Arts applications being associated with what are thought of as unrelated activities comes from wanting to express the idea that knowledge in one area, and focusing on it, understanding the principles of flow of Essence--or chi, or ki, or whatever you want to call it--is the key to the mystic martial arts.  It's not just beating people up, but a deeper understanding of how the Creation works, and that can be achieved through several methods, not just through intense meditation and exercises designed to hurt folks. That the understanding of this ebb and flow can then be applied to all sorts of other activity. That practice of the Martial Arts isn't just about beating people up, but more complete understanding of existance, and that Enlightenment can come about by many different paths, not just from learning sword and HTH techniques. That you can apply the lessons learned from one activity to another is what I think drives these different ideas of what is martial arts.


It's not just as a catch all Ability, but an expression to better capture Eastern thought on what discipline and focus can achieve, and how lessons in one aspect of life can carry over into others. Be that Furious Potatoe Chopping Technique channelled into swordplay, turning a cook into a sifu of great import, or a bureacrat that has learned what motivates people, and learned how to manipulate them without being overt, by watching not just their eyes, and listening to their words, but feeling their energy flow, their intentions congeal even as they concieve of them.


It's not a drive towards just chop-sockey action, but an expression of a deeper philsophy, and one that is often missed by Westerners who tend to lump Martial Arts as a seperate activity, rather than focus on the idea that most arts are considered a path, a method, a way of looking at the world. The Way of Punching and Kicking is a way of looking at the world. Tai Chi and Chi Gong are others.  Empty hand.  Juijitsu. These are methods, not just a set of exercises and punches, but a way of approaching life and each has a philosophy that extends beyond just beating ass or not getting hit.


It's a common misconception, especially from Westerners. But that is where the drive to include disparate activities into the umbrella of Martial Arts. That you find a distaste for chop sockey action, one might think that you would embrace such expansions rather than labeling it as bunk. Your 'discrimination' it would appear to be based on that very misconception.

 

[shifty]

Jakk:  I tend to think Sorcery should fit that role more than Martial Arts, to be honest.  But I definitely see your point.  


Andrew0s:  Different tastes evidentally.  Just about every anime movie I have ever seen had the big ulto powerful mega super saiyan bad guy at the end, so I guess we come from two different worlds.  Well to each there own.  


The purpose of this poll was to see if my view of Chejop was in the minority, apparently, it is.  I wouldnt have thought so, but the various posters have brought up enough decent points for me to see the "other side."

 

[Jakk Bey]

WW did a better job with showing how Enlightenment played into the development of skills and understanding of the universe with Mage. Do was a nice form, but the real power came from its use with Spheres, which were the expression of how well you understood how things fitted together.  Without a system like that in place--because the focus of Exalted is a bit different, the developers had a choice on how to do the same thing.  They chose the thematic approach that was closest related to the wuxia films and anime they were attempting to preserve in flavor--Martial Arts.  


It may be something they address in the Second Edition.


Me, I'm working on a Craft based Martial Art--for Cooking, for Blacksmiths, for Coopers--because while it can be argued that Charms from the said Abilities are the ultimate expressions of that Ability, with the framework of Martial Arts, you can develop a comprehensive system that pulls together the philosophy of following that particular path to Enlightenment, that goes beyond just being a superpowered Blacksmith, but a mystic Blacksmith, who has developed his art beyond the ken of normal men, who has applied himself beyond the usual pale.


Occult or Sorcery are great for the learned and literate, but it tends to exclude more esoteric mystics.  Those who spurn the trappings of conscious thought, and seek a path that is concerned with doing, not knowing.  


Again, maybe in the Second Edition this sort of thing can be addressed.

 

[Master of Malfeasance]

Most RPGs have a power curve-- a certain margin in which a character is playable, useable, and fun.  If too underpowered, the character will die horribly in every encounter, if too overpowered, the number of beings in creation that can challenge you in any arena begins to drop off exponentially.  


Chejop Kejak is riding the ragged edge at the top of that power curve, just like the Deathlords.  If First and Forsaken Lion is the greatest general that the first age had to offer, why shouldn't Kejak have similar stats of his own?  Maybe he doesn't have a superheavy soulsteel juggernaut warstrider with dexterity upgrades that uses dual wield double-bladed warstrider grand daiklaves and have legions of undead backing him up at every turn.


What he has is subtlety and style


Being in the military right now, I can tell you that leaders, after a certain amount of time, become so accustomed to people saying "yes" to them that they think nothing of making truly outlandish requests, those below them asuming there must be some good reason for it.  Even for a facilitator like Kejak, he probably uses his charms reflexively and routinely employs bureaucracy stunts, beats the cud out of powerful beings in Yu-Shan to get his way and also...


He's Exalted.  Maybe not a ravening Dusk caste butcher, but he is still Exalted, he still has his god-body (it just looks old), and he can tangle with Holok (who is himself a professional bad ass).  In 10,000 years, with his mind and experiences, he really has SEEN IT ALL.  


Professional sports players talk about how once they've been playing a while, the game slows down.  This is because they have seen nearly every permutation of what can happen.  Imagine 10,000 years of that.  Even if he hasn't been to the field in a while, even if he only spent 5,000 of those years doing the judo chop, he will still do the judo chop vastly more efficiently than your players.  Assuming that they ever do force him into a confrontation, it will go one of two ways:


1:  A long, drawn out affair where Kejak wears your players down with his layered, persistent perfect defenses, moving them into the paths of eachother's attacks, etc.


2:  (more likely) Kejak is a ruthlessly efficient killing machine, and if your players haven't dispached him in the first round few rounds while they are hale and hardy, he is going to employ combat acupuncture, combat acupressure, crazy eyes to kill you, whispered rebukes (think bluster from Hunter), turn players against their buddies (really hard), or "I-was-an-arctic-scuba-ninja-assassin-in-vietnam style martial arts to ruin their day.


Let's also not forget the obscene number of favors and IOUs he can call due from Yu-Shan, assuming he actually thought he was in danger!  He could pay out of pocket to have a solar eliminated by putting a reward out for them in heaven.  


I'll give a crate of celestial peaches to anyone who can kill this perfect circle of solars, or one peach to every divinity involved!

 

[Haku1]

I don't know about enlightenment or crap like that... but the points raised by the other posters here are valid, Shifty.


I'll chip in my two jade bits here. The question at heart here is, is the Old Man "Chejop Kejak" the end all and be all at hand to hand combat.


The answer I have to give is no, he isn't the end all be all ultimate martial artist.


But he IS a Sidereal Exalted, whose near the end of his long life span of 5000 years (minus whatever amount of time he used to power a few charms and effects that shave off his lifespan).


This is the key factor. A sidereal has no way in hell of getting -new- custom charms beyond what is printed, this typically ranges from 4 - 6 charms in any given ability, those trees with 10+ are rather rare.


The only way for a sidereal to grow in power beyond his native charms are two-fold; sorcerery and martial arts.


This means that an ancient sidereal will have a number of spells in his arsenal and nice stack of terresterial, celestial and sidereals styles to call upon for bad-assery and whatever he needs to get done.


I'm going to assume that the Old Man is a reasonable guy and only has the styles in print to call upon. Does this make him the ultimate end all and be all?


Again, no... solars will always stand a chance if they play their cards right and are designed for combat, and this is before they even peak essence 5.


But the Old Man will never make it to close personal combat mano-a-mano...


Why? Think about it, he's right beside the Mouth of Peace... in the Realm, surrounded by lots and lots of Dragonblooded and hidden Sidereals who WILL be packing sidereal martial arts.


This can result in your Solars or enemies getting tagged by a little something called Death by Dragonblooded... or worse... the sidereals get to you first... They might decide to simply just remake you into a nice wooden statue or perhaps a solar exalted gold fish that they'll keep in a pond or fish-tank (good luck using your charms and spells inside a non-human body without a human mind).


If by some miracle, the solars do make it to the Old Man, they'll also likely be out of essence and willpower... assuming several running fights/scenes later. The Old Man will quite likely smile and ask a litttle girl whose just exalted as a dragonblooded and trained in the bare minimums of the Five Dragon Style to go beat up on the solars and she'll likely win.


If not... well... while the fight is going on... the Old Man will be powering up several charms or simply going 'duck fate' and he isn't there.


So... is the Old Man the ultimate in HtH combat, no... but are your players going to get  a chance to find out... again, very unlikely.


But even if he isn't the ultimate in HtH combat, he'll still likely beat the snot out of most beings... simply because he is an ancient exalt...

 

[Andrew02]

 
Andrew0s:  Different tastes evidentally.  Just about every anime movie I have ever seen had the big ulto powerful mega super saiyan bad guy at the end, so I guess we come from two different worlds.  Well to each there own.  

In all honesty, I've never seen an ANIME MOVIE that did not terminate in an encounter with the big ulto powerful mega super saiyan bad guy.


Books, series, video games (kinda sorta. Look at the Legacy of Kain series. It has bosses, and all that, but it's all based around a story so convoluted and manipulatey that you've gotta love it), and so forth are different. They're so full of fucking manipulators that I yearn for the simple struggle of Optimus Prime and Megatron.

 

[shifty]

They're so full of fucking manipulators that I yearn for the simple struggle of Optimus Prime and Megatron.

Well, I havent played Legacy of Cain, as I dont own any console systems.  But I can give a great run down of everything that has had the biggest RPG games over the years past 15 years or so on the PC and old nintendo.


Might Magic 1-9, Had a big boss bad guy that did amazing damage at the end of every single title.  Xeen.


Wizardy 1-8  If it wasnt Werdna you were fighting at the end, it was some big bad guy at the end.


Gold Box 1-4. Series of DnD.  (Secret of the Silver Blades.  Pool of Radiance, etc).  Big bad guy at the end there too.  In fact, in DnD parlance at the end of the first one, you were fighting a Titan, with your party of 10th level characters.


Baldurs Gate series.  Jon Irenicus, big bad guy at the end.  Utlra powerful bad guys galore.  Oh wait you are a god fighting other gods at the end.


Deus Ex  I include this one, because most probably, its the most immersive role playing game I have ever seen.  Can literally do anything.  The game had a master manipulator that really was a master manipulator.  He regularly employed people who were much more powerful than him, to do his dirty work and was only a normal human.  This guy really was the real deal.  But even at the end, he starts hooking himself up to some big machine to give himself ultra powers.  Lame and formulaic.


Planescape: Torment  Possibly the best rpg game ever to hit the market.  The story line is one that is better than Deux Ex.  It had a big bad guy at the end. Although only 1 of the 5 or so ways to end the game actually involved fighting the big bad guy.


All of these games were games of the year in various PC gaming magazines, or strong contenders (with the exceptions of Might & Magic 8 and 9).  All of these games had strong storylines for their times.  Yet all of them, except for one, Planescape, had a big bad guy at the end, that you fought.  Sure, they might have had big manipulators, but in the end, all those big manipulators are always becoming super mega zoids.  Boring.


So if I were you, I wouldnt exactly start saying that master manipulators are everywhere.  Cause you would be full of shit and everyone knows it.  No, they arent.  Very very little games on the market have their end bosses, be normal guys.  Even the ones that do, have their manipulators transform into monsters of some sort at the end of the game.


In the 3 books that I mentioned, (well before you told me to start reading, the irony of that is priceless), the master manipulators were both human and stayed human, and I have never seen that translated into a game.


And in my opinion, awesome manipulators make for much much better bad guys than godzillas.  A godzilla encounter, simply throws dice at the pc until they die, unless ofcourse the godzilla encounter has some weakness to exploit, but I seriously doubt Chejop Kejak has any.  A manipulator encounter, arranges situation that the pcs have a part in.  So typically a master manipulator encounter is much more interactive than a


godzilla encounter.  PCs tend to like that more.


On another note:


Myself, I find it more satisfying for Chejop Kejak to not be a master fighter.  I would rank him probably one of the least hth bad asses of the First Age survivors.  This is not to say that an average circle of PCs could take him easily.  No sir.  Maybe a circle comprised of Essence 5 solars could.  I would certainly place him WELL below all of the surviving first age Lunars, with the exception of the Owl chick, who hid.  I would place him below Holok in hth fighting ability.  And certainly WELL below the deathlords.  To me this much more satisfying.  Why?  It illustrates for one, thing that might does not make right.  It also contrasts him very well against his primary enemies, the Deathlords.  The Deathlords sold their souls to the Malfeans, and gained power from it.  Chejop did not.  Certainly makes his character more depth, because he chooses to fight them in spite of.  Its the classic, little man vs big man competition.  Who can argue with that.  It gives the sidereals a little more flavor.  It certainly makes their James Bond games, a little more noble when you pit Sidereals verse Abyssals and Kejak vs Deathlords.  If the Siddies win it should be because they had to use their heads, not because of brute force.


Ahh I am rambling.

 

[Jakk Bey]

My favorite villains are schemers.  Convoluted plotters who will do things that seem to have no purpose, not even wallowing in their own crapulance explains their actions, and then it comes back a year or so later, and the reason for the action hits the characters like a ton of bricks.


In Mage, I used a MIB Agent, who turned out to be using the New World Order for his own purposes, a Ngoma older than the Technocracy itself who had joined them out of a desire to see things get better, a chance to raise the whole of humanity, not just a tiny segment.  A fella who played not just the PC's but the Technocracy as well.  He WAS a powerhouse, a Mage who was old, skilled, and crafty. But his real strength was the fact that he played all the angles, feigned weakness when it served his purpose, played folks against one another so that they'd serve his bidding on their own, without ever knowing that they'd been manipulated.


Another favorite is nasty little Demon. Aphastazu is a master manipulator.  Shapechanging is a nice piece to his repetoire, and it means that he can be one nasty mofo in hand to hand, but the fella has never been engaged in combat in the whole time that I've used him.  He has been attacked, and he just leaves, and then returns to whisper and call out to the characters later on, to weaken their resolve, to put events into motion.   It instead serves its purposes to get others to do its bidding, and works at corrupting not just individuals, but whole organizations.  Whole cities. I have taken a great deal of satisfaction at equal inspiration from Machiavelli and Good Omens, because Aphastazu relishes not just the big corruption, but the tiny, small corruptions as well.  Bringing misery and lowering the bar for everyone is his biggest thrill, and if that means he can tweak the system, just a little, by cutting someone off on the freeway, and later on egg that poor soul again, by throwing his paper into a the sprinkler, burning his dinner, and then convienently leaving a chef's knife in easy reach, just after altering the poor man's wife's voice, so that it's just a little more shrill and grating than usual...it's all good for him.


That doesn't mean that Aphastazu isn't a mind crushingly powerful critter, but how he's used.


Analogies with video game villains is poor. It IS a different medium.  


As characters grow stronger, they are looking for challenges, and combat is one of the ways that can be used to throw roadblocks in their way--it's not the only method. It depends on the story you're trying to tell, and the characters that are in the tale.


You are making a mistake in thinking that complexity equals depth. You can have a powerful opponent that is chock full of depth, if you apply yourself.  That the final confrontation leads to violence at a shocking scale can be played up, and even more significant if the character does so with some reluctance.  


Complexity for its own sake isn't drama. A tale that is complex, that reveals itself in moments that heighten the drama, that reinforce the elements of the tale that you're telling, that is decent storytelling. The key is to use all of the tools in the box, not just one or another.


Sometimes a powerful opponenet is the right choice. Sometimes a schemer is the right choice. Sometimes a schemer who could pound the characters to a fine paste, but chooses not to, because they have further use for the characters is the right choice. The key is to use the right tool, at the right time, and not get enamored with only one approach.


To be honest--I consider Chejop as a plot device. Not a character. Not an obstacle--because his purpose is to kick events into motion. Characters should rarely even know of his existance, because he manipulates events, is so insulated, that his involvement and imprint is removed from most folks' knowledge. If the characters ever do find out who is working events over against them, by that time, it's far too late, and they've got more pressing concerns than the fella pulling the strings.


Just because you have a character in your plot, doesn't mean that the PCs are ever going to face them.  Does it matter if he's a baddass in HTH? Are the PC's ever going to get that close to him? If he's a good villain, nope.  If he's payed his union dues to the Super Villain's Union, he will have back ups and cut outs, and plans laid within plans, and it's not even neccessary to worry about it, because you only have to concentrate on what is central to the real plot.


The PC's roll into Heaven, fired up, and determined to beat the snot out of our boy, at the end of long campaigns where they've been on the pointy end of the stick for too long.  They fight through defenses, they surmount endless dangers, then to find that Chejop is at the center of his web...and they engage him in mortal combat. He falls to the ground, his book of Prophesy falls from his robe, and the PC's read on to see the threat that Chejop feared the most, and then realize that our boy was askeered of something even nastier. To arms! Off to face that further villainy.


As the room clears, the real Chejop walks out, from behind the wall he's been watching the action from behind, his doppelganger fades into the dust from whence it came, having served its purpose.  Chejop isn't a character to be bandied about, anymore than the Deathlords are just monsters to be put into dungeons. Plot devices, and you treat a plot device with some care on how you use it.

 

[Master of Malfeasance]

Have people in the Realm ever even heard of Kejak?  Is he talked about like in the same way that we talk about J. Edgar Hoover?  Is he a popular character in children's stories?  Did he write a book a long time ago when he was a Sidereal in training that has fallen into obscurity, but a savant would know the name if they heard it (like Polti)?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Master of Malfeas....Mal...MoM: I can unequivicably say, noone in the Realm should know Katsup Kojak's name. He's been the secret master of the Realm for thousands of years, and is the oldest mortal thing in Creation. In short, noone's gong to find his High School Year book with C.K. voted by his class to be "Most likely to rule Creation with an Iron Monkey martial arts style."


As for his combat ability, I think he should be the greatest martial artist in Creation. He still has all the classic Sidereal weaknessess, including a low soak and scant health levels, so he's theoretically beatable. That said, as others have noted, he's old, bold and bald. That's a danerous combination. Look at Patrick Stewart.


Edit: P.S. I always imagined C.K.'s speciality in Martial Arts to be "Battles he has forseen" fitting in with his Secret Master of creation role, and the Sidereal curse in general.

 

[Arthemis Rex]

In Defense of Reiteous Devil


I wanted to say they the 2 styles you mentioned are 2 of my favorites of the game-


thgese 2 styles are reflections of the games inspiration.


Anime Courtesan style is from Ninja Scroll it is one of the abilites used by the poison taster ( name?) of the Koga Ninja Clan


and i think Righteous Devil style is based on Squaresoft- both Irvine from Final Fantasy 8 (my favorite final fantasy) and the gunslinger guy from Xenogears ( name?)


so much of the visual of this game comes from Square and Manga


i think these two styles are good examples of the designers brue to the games roots

 

[Arthemis Rex]

wow bad typo haha


'being true to the game's roots'


hahaha

 

[Persell]

Ignoring the Fiction


I get the rather solid impression that Ketchup is the 'most powerful exalt' in creation, primarly become the books say it.


He knows all Sidreal Martial Arts styles, has master them is the term I believe that is used in the sidreal book.  He knows at least 40 styles as that number is mentioned under one of the other MA styles as the number elder experts consider to be comprehensive or some such.  


Even the novels support the fact that he is the ultimate MA dude, his sparing partner is one of the other Bronze Faction leaders who loses.  


Bluntly, assuming that he is 3000 years old his Essence would be around (725 XP for essence per player's guide) 13!  One of my PC's built him on a lark and with teh complete knowledge of all MA styles Ketchup could kill Lion in the first round of combat with a charm cancling, essence absorbing, life ending combo that could hit like 13 time in one round.  


He has a dice pool of, lets think, 13 + 13 + 26 (maiden of battles or whever dice booster) +3 special, +4 hearth, and the enemy is at -13 dice to block him in Forms.  Assuming he at least bothers to try he gets 61 dice   from one of the many sidreal MA forms, and an iniative of 55, and gets 21 autosuccesses per attack, plus additional aggrivated damage if the urge strikes him.  Even discounting the fact that he can rip open your scene lenth perfect defense charm he can still out hit Lion, block everything in response, and drop him in the first round.  


He doesn't fight because there is not an opponent in cannon that would require his attention.  He could probably take out a Primordial if required.