Charm activation in attack

[rattleingpython]

Alright my storyteller and I are again coming into conflict on a rules issue. I am already going with his ruling but I also run my own games and I want to know what the by the book method is.


Here is our arguement:


He has decided that when you attack someone that they get the knolege of the following in step 1: Dice pool, the fact you activated a charm and which ones, (whether they are obvious or not) number of attacks, and everything else listed.


My reading of it is you declare what your using but the defender does not get the knowlege of dice pool and charms.


To me it seems that there is no way for the defender to know what the charm is or what it does. more importantly the fact you used it without all-encompassing sorcerers sight.


Its really bugging me and, I want to see what the opinions of others are on this issue.

 

[skafte]

Your Storyteller is right.


This is player knowledge that is needed for charm combat to function. If you don't know charm use and dice pools you can't know how to defend yourself and you will be forced to use your anti- shaping, cripling...., plus perfect defence combo every time.


These informations are something your character know on an instinctual level and she won't know which charms were used against her as such, that is where the Obvious keyword comes into play.

 

[rattleingpython]

You entire argument doesnt make since to me. Of course you have to have all those ready. As a charecter you dont know whats going to hit you. This is why people start out fights testing there opponents. Finding out there attack dangers and Defensive measures.


To me your giving defence even more power then it already has. Defence already win automaticaly if two charms conflict. By not using the perfect defence your taking a risk its true but thats life. Sometimes a beggar with a rusty knife is just that, others its an abyssal waiting to cut your essence in half. You may not know that until it is to late. that seems realistic to me.

 

[skafte]

It also makes exalted combat rather boring as you will have to perfect defend every time if you want to be sure to survive the little boy with his sling (named David).


From a realistic point of view, yes, it doesn't make sence, but the game is designed so the players will know what they are defending against.

 

[rattleingpython]

I dont agree with that assessment of the situation. Its one of the advantages to resistance based defences. You can wait to see.

 

[skafte]

Of course it's up to you to agree or not and decide how you will run your games, but that is how the game have been designed and how the charms are weighter towards each other.


I'm sure someone will be around shortly that can explain it better than I can (Holden or Plague of Hats would be good candidates).

 

[cyl]

You may not know that until it is to late. that seems realistic to me.

Realistic...THIS ... IS... EXALTED !!! :twisted:

 

[magnificentmomo]

You do get the information, but you don't have it in character knowledge. You know the other characters DVs and what they are rolling so you know how much to spend on an excellency, or what exactly you need to activate.


There is only in character knowledge of charm use if there is an Obvious effect. Solar Joe attacks someone with an excellency, in character they might just think he is freaky talented or strong, but won't call up the wyld hunt, as long as he didn't flair.

 

[Gylthinel]

You do get the information, but you don't have it in character knowledge. You know the other characters DVs and what they are rolling so you know how much to spend on an excellency, or what exactly you need to activate.
There is only in character knowledge of charm use if there is an Obvious effect. Solar Joe attacks someone with an excellency, in character they might just think he is freaky talented or strong, but won't call up the wyld hunt, as long as he didn't flair.

Is there a page reference for this? I've never gotten the impression that a player or a character would have this knowledge. Which is why our Exalted combats have gone the was Skafte predicted: perfects every time. Which is no bueno.

 

[cyl]

Core book says :

1) Declaration of Attack: The attacker’s player states that the character is attacking and what Charms (if any) he


will activate to enhance the attack, excepting reroll effects. If the attack cannot be stopped by a particular mode of


defense (dodge or parry), the attacker’s player must include this information in the declaration.

So the total dicepool for the attack is not revealed.


It is also unclear if the effects of the charm has to be revealed to the defender or not.


Perhaps it is acceptable to give a simple mention of the name of the charm (for future reference)... preserving the mystery a bit further and giving the player an opportunity to make mistake.


But really what's the point ?!


In most cases the perfect defense is the best option.


It's cheaper & more efficient than an excellency so, there's no real point in using an excellency + stunt unless you have Essence Flow.

 

[skafte]

Is there a page reference for this? I've never gotten the impression that a player or a character would have this knowledge. Which is why our Exalted combats have gone the was Skafte predicted: perfects every time. Which is no bueno.

It's in the Order of Attack Events in the Core rules, unfortunately you will need a Borgstrom - English dictionary in order to see it clearly.


It's one of those things that the core rules unfortunately haven't been as clear to explain as it should have been, and on several occations authers have had to clearify this on forums across the web.


@Cyl


A Perfect isn't always the most efficient - it may just be a boy with a sling.

 

[cyl]

A Perfect isn't always the most efficient - it may just be a boy with a sling.

If a boy with a sling uses a charm... then it's not just a boy with a sling :mrgreen:


The declaration of the charm activation raises instantly the threat level of the attacker, and the best / cheapest / safest mode of defense against a threat is still a perfect parry / dodge.


If someone attacks you with a grand klave even without charms you'd be stupid to go "oh... I'm just gonna use my high DV to defend against the blow. hoo hoo hoo".


Better safe than sorry.

 

[Gylthinel]

This raises an interesting question. Many charms have an activation time in steps well after 1&2. Like perfect resistance, which activates in like step 7. My question is: do you still have to declare it in your defensive step 2? Since that's where charms are declared?

 

[cyl]

Yep, even if a charm takes effect in the last step, you have to declare its use beforehand...


Oooh there's an interesting breach here: counterattacks (the attacks given by charm, and not charms with the counterattack keyword)... the corebook stating that the player has to declare the charm he will activate to enhance the attack, counter attacks charm do not fall in this category, neither is it a defensive charm.


So Solar Counterattack may not have to be declared either by the attacker or the defender beforehand !

 

[Kyeudo]

Yep, even if a charm takes effect in the last step, you have to declare its use beforehand...

That sounds very wrong. You don't have to activate a Charm until the step of combat where it takes effect as far as I know.

 

[cyl]

If the charm enhances the attack or the defense, of course you do !


It's step 1 & 2 my friend.


Let's say you have a charm allowing you to have a similar effect as with Fire & Stone Strike, but it applies only in step 8, you have to declare it in step 1 anyway.


Same goes with Leaping Dodge Method. It takes effect in step 9, but as a defensive charm you have to declare its use on step 2.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Same goes with Leaping Dodge Method. It takes effect in step 9, but as a defensive charm you have to declare its use on step 2.

This is incorrect. "Reflexive (Step #)" indicates that you declare its use and pay its cost in Step # of resolution.

 

[cyl]

Huh I'm pretty sure it's not... do you have a page ref ?


The charm is used and takes effect on the appropriate step of the declaration, and the motes are paid at that time... but the declaration has to take place in step 2.


Core book says:

ORDER OF ATTACK EVENTS
1) Declaration of Attack: The attacker’s player states that the character is attacking and what Charms (if any) he


will activate to enhance the attack, excepting reroll effects. If the attack cannot be stopped by a particular mode of


defense (dodge or parry), the attacker’s player must include this information in the declaration.


2) Defender Declares Response: The defender’s player decides how the character responds: A) Do nothing and ac-


cept the attack, generally resulting in severe injury, or B) Defend using best option of parry or dodge. The defender’s


player must declare the use of any defensive Charms not based on a reroll.

Now I'm gonna check for erratas about this but... I've never played it otherwise.

 

[Gylthinel]

Cyl is pretty much carrying the torch for me here. My question is: if you use a charm in the step stated in it's decription, then what is the purpose of steps 1-2 in combat? Why wouldn't combat start in step 3?

 

[cyl]

That sounds very wrong. You don't have to activate a Charm until the step of combat where it takes effect as far as I know.

Sorry Kyeudo, I misread that one.


You are right you don't have to activate it (pay the cost) before the step of combat where it takes effect.


However, you have to declare your intention of using a defensive charm in step 2.

 

[Persell]

Cyl is pretty much carrying the torch for me here. My question is: if you use a charm in the step stated in it's decription, then what is the purpose of steps 1-2 in combat? Why wouldn't combat start in step 3?

Because you pay for Charms you use at the same time you declare them, not at separate intervals.


Its not:


Attacker: Step 1 "I'm gonna use Charms X Y and Z in a combo to rape your soul out of existence."


Defender: Step 2 "That sounds unpleasant. I'm gonna use a perfect."


Attacker: "Drat, let me pay my motes..." *spends motes for Charms X Y Z*


Defender: "Oh, me too!" *spends motes for perfect*


but rather:


Attacker: Step 1 "I'm gonna use Charms X Y and Z in a combo to rape your soul out of existence." *spends motes for Charms X Y Z*


Defender: Step 2 "That sounds unpleasant. I'm gonna use a perfect." *spends motes for perfect*


Edit: The snark isn't intended as a put down in anyway, I was just bored.

 

[cyl]

It may look that way, but really it's not...


Let's take my previous example. Leaping Dodge Method.


It goes like this:


S1: attacker, "I'm going to smash you to bits with my hurricane crusher (goremaul) using mah first excellency" (excellencies are step 1, so the attacker has to pay the cost).


S2: defender "I think not, and since you look kinda scary with your grand klave, I'm going to take a few steps back and use LDM on step 9 to prevent you from attacking me on your next action".


S3: attacker rolls


S5: confrontation, the attack misses


S9: the defender leaps away AND spends the motes.


And not:


S1: attacker, "I'm going to smash you to bits with my hurricane crusher (goremaul) using mah first excellency" (excellencies are step 1, so the attacker has to pay the cost).


S2: defender: "fine, whatever"


S3: attacker rolls


S5: confrontation, the attack misses


S9: defender: "oh by the way, SURPRISE !!! I'll be using LDM to get away now", pays the motes and leaps away.


There is a significant difference between the application of the charm and the moment its use is declared, even if practically the results are the same, the defender has to make up his mind when he's attacked and stick to it.


Let's imagine for an attacker with a raw damage of 4, and a defender a second a reflexive perfect defense applicable on S5 instead of S2, giving the defender the rare opportunity of choosing to pay for the defense or not depending on the result of the attack, AND a Durability of Oak Meditation.


The system still forces the player to declare which charm he will use on S2 to lock his behavior


So he must choose on Step 2 which of the charms he will use (wether the perfect or DoOM), and he will pay the activation cost if needed on the appropriate step.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Here.

 

[cyl]

Okey, so I've been in the 2nd category of people, the ones who got it wrong...


Still, it doesn't make sense to let the defender have up to 9 steps to make up his damn mind about how to react to an attack when the attacker has to declare and pay everything ahead... but oh well, things won't change much for me since my STing activities are exclusively pbp these years. :roll:

 

[Plague of Hats]

Still, it doesn't make sense to let the defender have up to 9 steps to make up his damn mind about how to react to an attack when the attacker has to declare and pay everything ahead...

Not all attack Charms are Step 1. This is why Soul-Cleaving Wound is actually kind of scary, and why such Charms are relatively rare.