Appearance! Huh! What is it good for?

[Persell]

Unfortunately not. But I am reading Nobilis at the moment. That kicks ass.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

If you're a fan of the wuxia genre, it's definitely worth picking up.

 

[Persell]

I am. So thanks. I'll see if I can get my hands on it

 

[Gtroc]

I really dislike the way they did appearance in Exalted. they should have done it like it was in Adventure. where appearance is just how distinctive you look, beautiful or ugly, you need a high appearance for either. Adventure was such a good step in the Storyteller system, and Exalted used a lot of the good stuff from it, but not that rule, I wish I knew why. it was a really good idea...oh well.

 

[Hanat-Osul]

I really dislike the way they did appearance in Exalted. they should have done it like it was in Adventure. where appearance is just how distinctive you look, beautiful or ugly, you need a high appearance for either. Adventure was such a good step in the Storyteller system, and Exalted used a lot of the good stuff from it, but not that rule, I wish I knew why. it was a really good idea...oh well.

No doubt.  I'm with you on this one all the way, comrade.  Adventure! was some brilliant shit.

 

[Persell]

Yeah! That was a really cool way to use Appearance. Much more potential for storytelling.

 

[Flagg]

So what would stop one from simply using it that way in Exalted?


-S

 

[Kajata]

I personally thought that was the way it was meant to be used?  I mean, I always interpret all high dot values to simply mean "this is a positive aspect of his character rather than a negative one".  I mean, it's true that with things like strength, there's very few other ways to convey it.  But with appearance I wouldn't say they had to be beautiful just have an appearance that was, in some way, positive.


It's like having melee 5.  Sure, MOST melee 5 characters are gonna be typical master swordsmen, but if a guy with melee 5 wanted to convey his character in sort of a bungling but insanely skilled drunken boxing style way, I wouldn't say no.  The results are still the same, so where's the problem?  He's still gonna stab the guy through the chest, so why do I care if he does a stylish lunge or falls backwards over a barrel and, in slinging his sword backwards in a half-arsed attempt to get a grip on something, kills the guy?

 

[Gtroc]

So what would stop one from simply using it that way in Exalted?
-S

the thing that stops me is Canon. abyssals specifically, in that they say that you need either a incredibly low appearance or an increadably high one due to the beautiful/ugly dicotimy that exists in the Abyssal infrastructure.


I am sorry forany misspellings or errors, as I am a weeeee bit drunk right now, but damn itr I had something to say!!!!!!!

 

[Persell]

[the thing that stops me is Canon. abyssals specifically, in that they say that you need either a incredibly low appearance or an increadably high one due to the beautiful/ugly dicotimy that exists in the Abyssal infrastructure.

You could just rule that they gain Appearance as they gain in Essence. When Appearance reaches 4-5 they are either insanely ugly or inhumanly beautiful. Fuck canon

I am sorry forany misspellings or errors, as I am a weeeee bit drunk right now, but damn itr I had something to say!!!!!!!

Old Danish wisdom: You shall hear the truth from children and drunk people.

 

[Persell]

[the thing that stops me is Canon. abyssals specifically, in that they say that you need either a incredibly low appearance or an increadably high one due to the beautiful/ugly dicotimy that exists in the Abyssal infrastructure.

You could just rule that they gain Appearance as they gain in Essence. When Appearance reaches 4-5 they are either insanely ugly or inhumanly beautiful. Fuck canon

I am sorry forany misspellings or errors, as I am a weeeee bit drunk right now, but damn itr I had something to say!!!!!!!

Old Danish wisdom: You shall hear the truth from children and drunk people.

Word on both.


Just adopt the beautiful/high appearance rules for ugly abyssals and you are set.

 

[Jeppe]

It's still a wierd attribute


Heya


Let me start off by stating, that I agree with Ormseitr. I hate the Appearance attribute.


I like the arguments that have been provided in this thread, but I still think that they miss a very important aspect of appearance. How do you raise your appearance?


It is possible to raise every attribute in the system by means of training. Lift something and you get strong. Try do discern what motivates people, you can manipulate them. Try to notice when your girlfriend gets a haircut, you get more perceptive. But you can't get any more pretty than you already are.


Sure, you can start to wash and shave, but this isn't making you anymore beautiful. It's just trying to hide that you are ugly. And no matter how clean shaven, well-smelling, well-dressed a person is, if he was burned half to death in his childhood, he'll still have scar tissue in his entire face, and though this is no doubt attractive to a select few, most will find it repulsive.


In order to actually "improve" looks, you will have to resort to surgery or magic (or maybe some kind of flesh sculpting performed by Deathknights). When a modern plastic surgeon operates on someone, he tries to make the face (or whatever body part he is working on) look as symmetric and well-proportioned as possible, since this is generally agreed upon to be what is attractive.


Suppose for a minute that I agree with what has been said earlier, that appearance can be raise by starting to take baths and use makeup. This requires some kind of steady income, as well as a whole load of time. Does that mean that poor people are cut off from being beautiful? Some people can put on any clothes, wear makeup or not, and they're still drop-dead gorgeus. That's just the way they're born. But it's in the symmetri and proportion of their faces and bodies, not in their comeliness. So no, it shouldn't be reserved the wealthy to be beautiful. Besides, there are plenty of adventurous stories about gods falling in love with the plain, but still strikingly beautiful peasant girl.


The time aspect is another part of it. If appearance is reflected in how you clothe, shave, and bathe, it is a stat that has one value when you get out of bed (or are on a longer field trip) and then raises to another value when you've done your stuff. None of the other stats require this kind of maintainance. You're still strong in the morning, marching for two weeks straight doesn't make you dump, and rolling right out of bed doesn't make you any less capable of manipulating the common man. Thus, in game terms, appearance has no place as an attribute.


Jeppe

 

[Persell]

Raising appearance from "scarred by magical fire" one dot to five dots of stunning and unearthly beauty without a good explanation is bad roleplaying. The fault of the player and the storyteller involved, NOT the fault of the system.

 

[Flagg]

Re: It's still a wierd attribute


Appearance is not alone in being "untrainable". It's aguable that pretty much everything except physical Attributes  fall into this category.

Try do discern what motivates people, you can manipulate them.

That sounds more like raising Socialize to me.

Try to notice when your girlfriend gets a haircut, you get more perceptive.

No you don't. You become more aware, because you're increasing your Awareness.


Also, try giving me a non-wishy-washy explanation of how one might raise his Intelligence.


-S

 

[Jeppe]

Re: It's still a wierd attribute

That sounds more like raising Socialize to me.

Arguably yes, but I think that training socialize reflects some of the basics of manipulation into the attribute that governs it. Kinda like when you practice martial arts and you get stronger and/or faster.

No you don't. You become more aware, because you're increasing your Awareness.

Same as above. You use the basic principles from noticing your girlfriends haircut (that's a wierd sentence) in other aspects of perception, for instance in perception+socialize rolls to discern body language and relationships between people you don't know.

Also, try giving me a non-wishy-washy explanation of how one might raise his Intelligence.

I am of the firm belief that intelligence not only represents raw computing power, but also systematical, abstract, and analytical ways of thinking. This can be trained by studying. Agreed, it takes a whole lot of time, but I'd say a college education could possibly raise your intelligence.


Jeppe

 

[Persell]

If anything then college and university made me dumb through alcohol.

 

[Jeppe]

The fault of the student, NOT the fault of the system.

 

[Persell]

The fault of the student, NOT the fault of the system.

That was exactly the point of my first answer to you, the one you overlooked

 

[Jeppe]

Raising appearance from "scarred by magical fire"

Let me first say that you added the "magical". Ordinary fire still scorches. And for the sake of argument, try to think of a "naturally" ugly person, who you would rate appearance 1, and then use that person as the base of this discussion.

Raising appearance from "scarred by magical fire" one dot to five dots of stunning and unearthly beauty without a good explanation is bad roleplaying. The fault of the player and the storyteller involved, NOT the fault of the system.

How come that when I want to raise my appearance from 1 to 5 dots it is bad roleplaying, but when I want to raise my stregth (or intelligence or perception or...) from 1 to 5 dots, it's quite ok? It seems to me, that if the attributes were equal, it wouldn't make me a bad roleplayer when I raised one attribute, but not another.


Jeppe

 

[Persell]

1. If you want to discuss, stick to the actual arguement and do not nitpick on my way of wording stuff.


2. It makes no difference why said person is ugly.


3. I never ever stated that raising strength from 1 to 5 without giving an explanation is actually a good thing to do.


4. Appearance is as much about bearing yourself as about actually good looking. You can carry yourself well with scars or not, you can learn to carry yourself with a certain confidence. Hell there is a whole business of model schools teaching how to walk properly... and hell a girl who knows how to use her hips while walking is definitely more sexy than one who doesn't and same holds true for a whole lot of mannerisms and things to do which are covered by appearance like using your eyelids, proper smiling, proper intonation (not for manipulating but for seeming attractive). There are people around who run around with no expression on the face all day long and actually remembering to put one on would make them more attractive. the list goes on and on.

 

[Persell]

3. I never ever stated that raising strength from 1 to 5 without giving an explanation is actually a good thing to do.

This is true. But I can't see other ways of explaining raising Appearance than the "I start to wash/shave/etc, use makeup, wear beautiful clothes, work/smile/talk properly etc. I.e. hiding how ugly you are. If you've go the cash to do this. These things may be explained and roleplayed fantastically, but they still doesn't change the fact, that my eyes are too far apart, my nose is too big, my mouth too small and forehead scarred by fire.

4. Appearance is as much about bearing yourself as about actually good looking. You can carry yourself well with scars or not, you can learn to carry yourself with a certain confidence. Hell there is a whole business of model schools teaching how to walk properly... and hell a girl who knows how to use her hips while walking is definitely more sexy than one who doesn't and same holds true for a whole lot of mannerisms and things to do which are covered by appearance like using your eyelids, proper smiling, proper intonation (not for manipulating but for seeming attractive). There are people around who run around with no expression on the face all day long and actually remembering to put one on would make them more attractive. the list goes on and on.

Yes. As I summed up earlier in the thread, Appearance is about how you look and how you project your looks. That is all fine and well. But Appearance still determines how attractive you are. It is still used in seduction rolls. And without surgery or magic you can't change how you look. You can hide it and draw other people's attention away from it and the methods for doing this has been covered in great detail. Hell, you might even be so personable and charismatic that your looks doesn't matter.


If the way a character looks should be covered by mechanics make it a merit like in nWoD. In my games it's not. If they want to be beautiful they gain free bonus dice to socialize rolls (not that socialize is rolled, but I take the bonus into account when I play NPCs). That is the unfairness of looks right there. Some people are beautiful and some are not.

 

[Jeppe]

1. If you want to discuss, stick to the actual arguement and do not nitpick on my way of wording stuff.

I am. But I thought it necessary to point out, that I didn't say "magically" ugly, since magic has been repeatedly suggested as a means to improve appearance.

2. It makes no difference why said person is ugly.

My point exactly.

3. I never ever stated that raising strength from 1 to 5 without giving an explanation is actually a good thing to do.

You brought up the range from 1 dot to 5. I never stated how many dots I wished to start with and since allocate to any attribute. If you think that it would contribute more to the discussion, please either select a more appropriate dot range, or leave out any specific allocation of dots all together.

4. Appearance is as much about bearing yourself as about actually good looking. You can carry yourself well with scars or not, you can learn to carry yourself with a certain confidence. Hell there is a whole business of model schools teaching how to walk properly... and hell a girl who knows how to use her hips while walking is definitely more sexy than one who doesn't and same holds true for a whole lot of mannerisms and things to do which are covered by appearance like using your eyelids, proper smiling, proper intonation (not for manipulating but for seeming attractive). There are people around who run around with no expression on the face all day long and actually remembering to put one on would make them more attractive. the list goes on and on.

See Ormseitr's post.


Jeppe

 

[Persell]

1. No it is not neccessary.


3. It is not about how many dots. Try sticking to the argument. I was saying that you can raise NO trait without an explanation, no matter if it is strength or appearance. Trying to say I was using an unrealistic pointscope is just distracting from the point.


4. This is a point for a lot of discussion. You and ormosetir seem to assume that for example a "fat person" is ugly per so while the people speaking for appearance as attribute think it is about how you carry yourself.  This is something you cannot finally solve, but that does not make our point invalid.

 

[Jeppe]

1. No it is not neccessary.

I found that it was. I am sorry that you feel offended by this.

3. It is not about how many dots. Try sticking to the argument. I was saying that you can raise NO trait without an explanation, no matter if it is strength or appearance. Trying to say I was using an unrealistic pointscope is just distracting from the point.

I am a little confused as to what you are saying here. I have already argued that increasing an attribute should reflect some kind of training, formal or informal. But that is exactly the point of discussion (or at least, this is something that I would like to discuss): does appearance not distinguish itself from every other attribute on this very point? It is the only attribute which cannot be trained higher, since you cannot alter the way your face looks.

4. This is a point for a lot of discussion. You and ormosetir seem to assume that for example a "fat person" is ugly per so while the people speaking for appearance as attribute think it is about how you carry yourself.

Bodybuild has more to do with strength and stamina, than appearance, if we look at attributes, and thus I do not think that "fat" is part of the "ugly" definition (although this is slightly besides the point. I like to think of appearance as covering mostly, if not solely, facial features). I agree that you CAN alter the way you are carrying yourself, but as it is, that is not what appearance stands for the way I read it. An attribute such as composure would be much better suited to cover these aspects.

This is something you cannot finally solve, but that does not make our point invalid.

I am not trying to deliver a universal truth about appearance, nor am I trying to overrule your opinions.


Jeppe

 

[Kajata]

I agree with Safim really.  Sure, you are who you are, and that's just how things lie, but, in reality, the same is true with ALL attributes.


You can't go to university and suddenly be smarter than Einstein or Stephen Hawking just by doing more degrees than he has.  Also, some people are just naturally stronger and more adept at lifting things and such, so, whilst you might be able to work out and become stronger than them, I'd put it down as a pretty good bet that if said other person decided to get into weightlifting and working out as well, he'd quickly outmatch you.  Some people are just BETTER at things than others.


Also, whilst raising strength may seem obvious, I don't think reaching the ultimate pinacle of legendary strength (apparently Str 5 ) can be done simply by going down the gym once a week.  Your character should be working out for years to get to that level of strength and to keep it up.  So, in the same vain, if a person puts that much more effort into their appearance, spending all day carefully applying make-up, putting their hair JUST right, putting on the right perfumes and the like, then I think it's ENTIRELY possible to "train" your appearance higher.  It represents the character getting better at maintaining a high standard of appearance, just as Strength is a character learning how to STAY strong, not just to build up the muscle.